How do I SBS an old C&R shotgun?

Solidsnake87 · #1 03-08-2010, 7:03 PM

Hey guys,

I've seen other calgunners legally convert old C&R shotguns/mosin nagants into short barreled shotguns/rifles.

I inherited what I think is an old Marlin model 28. The gun is sooo low in serial number that the model does not appear to be stamped anywhere. The patent dates are 1896 up through 1909. It was my grandfathers. I would never sell the thing but I never shoot it. I figure I would have way more fun with it if I could chop the barrel and fashion a wooden grip to it.....perhaps I could mount it to the bottom of an AR??????

What are the laws surrounding this sort of thing? I remember reading something about old C&R guns being eligible for short barreled treatments in CA......

user name · #2 03-08-2010, 7:05 PM

I see Grandpa rolling over in his grave......

Solidsnake87 · #3 03-08-2010, 7:15 PM

lol. Honestly, he would want me to have fun with it.

**ke6guj** · #4 03-08-2010, 7:16 PM

ATF used to allow a C&R host gun to be made into an C&R SBS, but it appears that lately they are taking the position that when you make it an SBS it loses C&R status.

tonelar · #5 03-08-2010, 7:59 PM

the ones I've seen in Cali are AOWs, if that makes a difference

Solidsnake87 · #6 03-08-2010, 8:09 PM

Upon further inspection, making an SBS is not the greatest idea for the function of this model. I will definitely chop it to 16" though.

Sooo.....If I install a pistol grip rather than a buttstock on this shotgun, am I legal?

C9X19 · #7 03-08-2010, 8:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solidsnake87

Upon further inspection, making an SBS is not the greatest idea for the function of this model. I will definitely chop it to 16" though.

Sooo.....If I install a pistol grip rather than a buttstock on this shotgun, am I legal?

Minimum barrel length for a shotgun is 18".

Yes, you can have a pistol grip only however imo a shotgun is useless without a buttstock.

Josh3239 · #8 03-08-2010, 8:12 PM

Depends...

Quote:

12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall
also mean any of the following:
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the
capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a
detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

Solidsnake87 · #9 03-08-2010, 8:22 PM

This is a pump action.........not a semi-automatic

This is exactly the gun in question.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=159708690

Josh3239 · #10 03-08-2010, 8:30 PM

Read the PC. A pump with a folding stock and a pistol grip is not illegal.

ar15barrels · #11 03-08-2010, 8:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C9X19

Minimum barrel length for a shotgun is 18".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solidsnake87

This is a pump action.........not a semi-automatic

That's federal law.
Nothing to do with state AW laws.
It does not matter what action type either.
Single shot, pump action, over/under, side by side, semi-auto etc...
ALL must be longer than 18" barrel and 26" overall length.

wilit · #12 03-08-2010, 8:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ke6guj

ATF used to allow a C&R host gun to be made into an C&R SBS, but it appears that lately they are taking the position that when you make it an SBS it loses C&R status.

Which is complete BS. Not sure how a firearm is a C&R because of it's age, but the instant you cut down the barrel (a replaceable part, not the receiver) it ceases being eligible under the 50 year rule. Why doesn't anyone challenge the ATF's "opinion" on this? They've been approving these Form 1's for decades.

Solidsnake87 · #13 03-08-2010, 8:37 PM

Wow. I was always under the impression that 16" was the legal barrel length for every long gun........

wilit · #14 03-08-2010, 8:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solidsnake87

Wow. I was always under the impression that 16" was the legal barrel length for every long gun........

Rifle yes, shotgun no. Both still need to be 26" (fed law).

Solidsnake87 · #15 03-08-2010, 8:50 PM

I just did some measurements, chopping the current stock to a pistol grip and chopping the barrel to 18.5" will give me more than 30" OAL.

**ke6guj** · #16 03-08-2010, 8:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilit

Which is complete BS. Not sure how a firearm is a C&R because of it's age, but the instant you cut down the barrel (a replaceable part, not the receiver) it ceases being eligible under the 50 year rule. Why doesn't anyone challenge the ATF's "opinion" on this?.

I think their thought is that it is no longer a title1 "Remington 870" that was made in 1951, but is now "Joe Blow 870" that was made into a title 2 firearm on the date the Form 1 was approved.

Quote:

They've been approving these Form 1's for decades.

really? do you have any specific info that ATF, for decaades, has allowed C&R host guns to be made into SBS/SBRs and retain C&R status?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solidsnake87

Wow. I was always under the impression that 16" was the legal barrel length for every long gun........

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilit

Rifle yes, shotgun no. Both still need to be 26" (fed law).

correct, shotguns must be 18" barrel, while rifles can be 16". It used to 18" for rifles and shotguns, but it was changed back in the day that rifle barrels could be 16", possibly to allow for surplus M1 carbines.

ar15barrels · #17 03-08-2010, 9:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solidsnake87

Wow. I was always under the impression that 16" was the legal barrel length for every long gun........

Actually, 18" is the minumum barrel length for long guns.
Rifles were given an exemption down to 16" when the DCM (then a govt agency) wanted to sell a bunch of M1 Carbines off to the public back in the 60's.

How many rifles do you see from before the 60's with sub 18" factory barrels?

Solidsnake87 · #18 03-08-2010, 9:51 PM

Quote:

How many rifles do you see from before the 60's with sub 18" factory barrels?

I would not know. I'm not a C&R guy.

Either way, this weekend will be fun in the metal shop

gunboat · #19 03-08-2010, 10:03 PM

Seems a shame to crap up a decent old weapon --

Solidsnake87 · #20 03-08-2010, 10:14 PM

Your opinion. this will make if more fun for me to use and I'll enjoy it more. I don't think my grandfather would complain there. Besides, its new compactness will also leave more room in the safe

Z ME FLY · #21 03-09-2010, 3:52 AM

I would say have the shotgun inspected by a gunsmith to make sure it is safe to fire. Then I would cut down the barrel to 18.5" then fire it to see how you like it. From there I would try to find a replacement stock to cut into the pistol grip you want. Just my two cents. I had a single shot that was cut down to 18" barrel. Then I got an h&r single shot to cut down to the legal limit. It's fun to shoot but when you do, it slaps the crap out of your finger. Recoils a lot!

Solidsnake87 · #22 03-09-2010, 8:34 AM

The gun is safe to shoot.

KING_PALM · #23 03-09-2010, 9:22 AM

if the gun is safe to shoot sell it to me and ill cut it down and shoot it as much as possible .

pm me if you want to sell it

johnrunner89 · #24 03-09-2010, 9:28 AM

Don't forget to post before and after pics

sierrawoodsman · #25 03-09-2010, 9:31 AM

According to marlin, your gun is NOT safe to fire. In 1998 they issued a bulletin recommending that their older slide action shotguns should not be fired.

If I were you I would just retire the gun, but do with it as you feel you need to.

Z ME FLY · #26 03-09-2010, 9:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solidsnake87

The gun is safe to shoot.

Too bad you aren't up North, I would let you shoot my cut down 12ga. It's a handful! You could shoot it to see how you like it. Pretty much I cut off a good portion of the stock. I was going to shape it into a pistol grip but found out the stock cuff still works and fits. I like the idea of having a couple of extra rounds with easy access.

Z ME FLY · #27 03-09-2010, 9:35 AM

100% Legal. 18.5" barrel with a 27/28" OAL.

KING_PALM · #28 03-09-2010, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z ME FLY

100% Legal. 18.5" barrel with a 27/28" OAL.

i want this!

aplinker · #29 03-09-2010, 9:09 PM

I'm still trying to figure out why this is in the rifleman's forum.

Solidsnake87 · #30 03-09-2010, 11:20 PM

Quote:

According to marlin, your gun is NOT safe to fire. In 1998 they issued a bulletin recommending that their older slide action shotguns should not be fired.

If I were you I would just retire the gun, but do with it as you feel you need to.

Its a pump action 12 ga. Can you provide the notice of this? I've fired the shotgun plenty of times. I tried to find this but I only came across forum comments with comments as vague as yours. What I read only pertained to old exterior hammer actuated shotguns.

Quote:

Don't forget to post before and after pics

I chopped the barrel to 18.5" and hacked off the stock. I'll post pics as soon as I can figure out a way to mount the grip. The original stock was mounted by a screw through the stock and into the action. When they glued on the butt pad, they sealed over any access to the screw. I'll have to rig a custom bolt to secure the new pistol grip. This thing is mean looking. 30" OAL. Feels like something outta mad max. lol.

Just curious, this gun is OLD. No receiver marking, probably never registered by the original owner as it was bought at a hardware store, only a serial # present and Marlin stamped on the bbl. Would it be legal to mark it as a pistol and then hack the barrel some more?

brian01tj · #31 03-10-2010, 12:15 AM

Thinking about selling one...

I have a C&R eligible Winchester model 37 in 16 gauge that has a digital camo paint job, 18" barrel, standard rear butt stock, and includes a matching digital pistol grip that could be put on (not shown in pictures).

Ill post in the for sale section if I get some interest. $150-200 range

Hop Sing · #32 03-10-2010, 5:44 AM

check on the shotgun, there are several old Marlin Shotguns that are deemed unsafe because of the strength of the barrels. SASS outlawed use of the marlin pumps because of this.

found this on another BB:
"The model 28 was the 1st hammerless shotgun Marlin made. There were a few design bugs & when these were worked out, the improved model was the 43. These were made from 1922 - 1930. The known serial number range for these is from 537 to 17411, so I'm guessing yours to be closer to 1922 than 1930.

These were also given free to purchasers of 4 shares of Marlin preferred stock - a 100 dollar investment. I don't believe all that many model 43s were given away, but there is no way to tell if yours was one of them as no records were kept.

It would be okay to glue the stock. Be sure it's a clean break or clean it with something like aceone & let dry thorooughly. Use epoxy or something like gorilla glue, carefully wiping away any excess while it is still wet. Clamp well using other pieces of wood as a vise pad & let the glue cure for a couple days at least.

One of these is my favorite dove gun as it has a very tight choke. Dove loads & trap loads are just fine, but don't shoot a lot of high brass turkey loads or 'short magnums' as the steel will eventually peen from the pounding of the higher pressures."

till44 · #33 03-10-2010, 8:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solidsnake87

Just curious, this gun is OLD. No receiver marking, probably never registered by the original owner as it was bought at a hardware store, only a serial # present and Marlin stamped on the bbl. Would it be legal to mark it as a pistol and then hack the barrel some more?

I'm going to say no. It would make it a SBS and you're not getting that here in CA.

Z ME FLY · #34 03-10-2010, 9:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solidsnake87

Its a pump action 12 ga. Can you provide the notice of this? I've fired the shotgun plenty of times. I tried to find this but I only came across forum comments with comments as vague as yours. What I read only pertained to old exterior hammer actuated shotguns.

I chopped the barrel to 18.5" and hacked off the stock. I'll post pics as soon as I can figure out a way to mount the grip. The original stock was mounted by a screw through the stock and into the action. When they glued on the butt pad, they sealed over any access to the screw. I'll have to rig a custom bolt to secure the new pistol grip. This thing is mean looking. 30" OAL. Feels like something outta mad max. lol.

Just curious, this gun is OLD. No receiver marking, probably never registered by the original owner as it was bought at a hardware store, only a serial # present and Marlin stamped on the bbl. Would it be legal to mark it as a pistol and then hack the barrel some more?

Nope

cmth · #35 03-10-2010, 12:16 PM

A smoothbore pistol is an AOW, but a shotgun that was made with a shoulder stock can never be an AOW, only an SBS. If it came from the factory with a pistol grip and never had a buttstock attached, it could be converted into an AOW.

thedrickel · #36 03-10-2010, 12:19 PM

Am I crazy or is the title of this forum "Centerfire Rifles"??

tuna quesadilla · #37 03-10-2010, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Actually, 18" is the minumum barrel length for long guns.
Rifles were given an exemption down to 16" when the DCM (then a govt agency) wanted to sell a bunch of M1 Carbines off to the public back in the 60's.

How many rifles do you see from before the 60's with sub 18" factory barrels?

Does not compute. The M1 Carbine has an 18" barrel.