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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 69 7.96%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 584 67.36%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 19 2.19%
I paid too much for my Membership! 40 4.61%
They will go out of business this year! 21 2.42%
Don't want anything to do with them! 134 15.46%
Voters: 867. You may not vote on this poll

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  #9601  
Old 06-14-2018, 11:55 AM
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Doubt any have.
I'd love to see Instructor Zero out there.
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  #9602  
Old 06-14-2018, 12:30 PM
SG29736 SG29736 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mustard View Post
Have any "celebrity" shooters gone through front sight? Jerry miculek for example. Would be interesting to know how they did.
Jerry Miculek or Rob Leatham aren't "celebrity" shooters. They are competitive shooters who have won national and world titles for many years.

Have the FS combat masters competed in USPSA/IPSC?
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  #9603  
Old 06-14-2018, 12:33 PM
SG29736 SG29736 is offline
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Some of the big name instructors are top level competitors but many have primarily top tier military experience/training but don't compete.
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  #9604  
Old 06-14-2018, 12:50 PM
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billvau billvau is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Cake View Post
Glocks and other striker fired are definitely popular in the class, a few 1911’s and I’ve seen a revolver once or twice.
My suggestion is to go with you Glock the first time and see how you like it. As far as minor and major caliber I see both, maybe slightly more 9mm. I don’t remember what the rules say about lights.

You’re going to be taking the class so many times you’ll have plenty of time to use different pistols and see what you do best with. Happy shooting- I love HCM.
Take a simple-to-operate pistol WITHOUT a physical safety switch. Also, don't take a pistol that can operate different ways (like my H&K USP Compact does).

Their lawyers force them to make you flip the safety every time you draw and return to holster. If you have multiple modes for the pistol, the instructors don't know what to do with it.

I ended up leaving in the middle of the 4 day class because of all the ways that they kept switching me around to use the pistol. Next time I'll take my P2000SK - simple and easy-to-use.
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  #9605  
Old 06-14-2018, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billvau View Post
Take a simple-to-operate pistol WITHOUT a physical safety switch. Also, don't take a pistol that can operate different ways (like my H&K USP Compact does).



Their lawyers force them to make you flip the safety every time you draw and return to holster. If you have multiple modes for the pistol, the instructors don't know what to do with it.



I ended up leaving in the middle of the 4 day class because of all the ways that they kept switching me around to use the pistol. Next time I'll take my P2000SK - simple and easy-to-use.


Yes they do enforce going to safety or de cocking and going to double action when returning to holster (seems reasonable - that’s how you’d probably carry).
But yes I agree removing that from the equation makes it easier for my simple mind . That’s one of the reasons I went to glock from HK
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  #9606  
Old 06-14-2018, 1:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SG29736 View Post

Have the FS combat masters competed in USPSA/IPSC?
Front Sight has an IDPA Team of Instructors / Range Masters they've recently put together and are competing. Pretty sure they're all running Front Sight Guncrafter 1911's
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  #9607  
Old 06-14-2018, 4:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Royal_Cake View Post
Yes they do enforce going to safety or de cocking and going to double action when returning to holster (seems reasonable - that’s how you’d probably carry). ...
Actually, their rule is if it has a safety you have to engage it regardless whether it is de-cocked or not. When I was there with my HK 45 I had to de-cock AND put the safety on if I wanted to start from DA. Not the way I run my HKs.
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  #9608  
Old 06-14-2018, 7:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Actually, their rule is if it has a safety you have to engage it regardless whether it is de-cocked or not. When I was there with my HK 45 I had to de-cock AND put the safety on if I wanted to start from DA. Not the way I run my HKs.


Different range master I suppose. He let me use de cock and no safety.
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  #9609  
Old 06-14-2018, 9:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SG29736 View Post
Jerry Miculek or Rob Leatham aren't "celebrity" shooters. They are competitive shooters who have won national and world titles for many years.

Have the FS combat masters competed in USPSA/IPSC?
They're gun-famous. In my mind that makes them a celebrity shooter. I didn't say "celebrities" like Kim Kardashian or some nonsense. Bottom line, I'd be interested in seeing Jerry or Rob go all out on FS specific curriculum, just to watch a pro be a pro
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  #9610  
Old 06-15-2018, 6:26 AM
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Ok. I'd also be interested to see how the FS combat masters would do shooting with champion USPSA shooters at nationals.
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  #9611  
Old 06-15-2018, 7:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustard View Post
They're gun-famous. In my mind that makes them a celebrity shooter. I didn't say "celebrities" like Kim Kardashian or some nonsense. Bottom line, I'd be interested in seeing Jerry or Rob go all out on FS specific curriculum, just to watch a pro be a pro
Watch them at a competition if you want to see a pro be a pro. FS curriculum is not that challenging for those that are "A" class or higher in USPSA and those guys are GMs (fyi classifications are D,C,B,A,M,GM) and multi national and world champions at that. Having them do the FS curriculum would be like asking them to do a 4 second Bill Drill, not that much of a deal.

Here is a video of a match by the world's best shooter to give you an idea about the skill level of these guys.
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  #9612  
Old 06-15-2018, 7:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SG29736 View Post
Ok. I'd also be interested to see how the FS combat masters would do shooting with champion USPSA shooters at nationals.
Heck, forget Nationals I'd like to see them shoot local USPSA match.
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  #9613  
Old 06-15-2018, 1:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Actually, their rule is if it has a safety you have to engage it regardless whether it is de-cocked or not. When I was there with my HK 45 I had to de-cock AND put the safety on if I wanted to start from DA. Not the way I run my HKs.
I'm with Royal, whoever had you do things that way didn't understand the FS rules...or more particularly doesn't understand how they apply to HKs...which have allot of variety.

Mostly it comes down as follows:
Single Action Semi Auto: Hammer Back, Safety On (Cocked and Locked) - example, 1911
DA/SA with Decocker: Decocked - example, Sig P2xx series
DA/SA with Safety/Decocker: Decocked, Safety Off - example, Beretta 92 series
DA/SA without Decocker: NO MANUAL DECOCKING ALLOWED. Hammer down on empty chamber - example, I'm drawing a blank, but I think there's a CZ-esque example there somewhere.
DA/SA with Safety: Hammer Back, Safety On (Cocked and Locked) - example CZ-75

HKs can have both Decocker and a Safety. If that's the case, its up to the shooter which method to use. If they query for which is preferred, the should be instructed to spend time with both and decide for themselves.

Last edited by mej16489; 06-16-2018 at 8:20 AM.. Reason: DA/SA with Safety example correction
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  #9614  
Old 06-15-2018, 1:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post

Mostly it comes down as follows:
Single Action Semi Auto: Hammer Back, Safety On (Cocked and Locked) - example, 1911

DA/SA with Safety: Hammer Back, Safety On (Cocked and Locked) - example Browning Hi-Power
Browning Hi-Power is not DA/SA. Only SA. Follows same rules as 1911.
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  #9615  
Old 06-16-2018, 8:23 AM
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Originally Posted by AR15fan View Post
Browning Hi-Power is not DA/SA. Only SA. Follows same rules as 1911.
Thanks for the correction, I was actually thinking of the Hi Power BDA, but that doesn't work either as it has a decocker.
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  #9616  
Old 06-18-2018, 8:20 AM
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So, how many took advantage of the latest and greatest offers from FS?
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  #9617  
Old 06-18-2018, 9:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SG29736 View Post
Ok. I'd also be interested to see how the FS combat masters would do shooting with champion USPSA shooters at nationals.
I would like to see it the other way. Have a USPSA or IDPA GM shoot the HCM test. We the exception of the type 3 I would bet they smoke it. For a national champ the times are not really a problem. However, forcing them to slow down in order to shoot down 0's may be. Also having them learn the FS target rather than the ones they are normally shooting. Finally, the USPSA guys don't do tactical reloads. All mags are dropped. However, the good guys to a mag change sub 1 second.
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  #9618  
Old 06-18-2018, 2:30 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
I would like to see it the other way. Have a USPSA or IDPA GM shoot the HCM test. We the exception of the type 3 I would bet they smoke it. For a national champ the times are not really a problem. However, forcing them to slow down in order to shoot down 0's may be. Also having them learn the FS target rather than the ones they are normally shooting. Finally, the USPSA guys don't do tactical reloads. All mags are dropped. However, the good guys to a mag change sub 1 second.
They're all completely different types of shooting. Presentation to the target has an extremely small impact on any of the gun games. Once they've 'cleared leather' its 90%+ about movement, economy of motion and split-times.

81% of the HCM test is 1 or 2 shots from the holster under time pressure. The times will be allot tougher then most realize. There's barely any movement - 15 responses and 1 palm-strike/step-back. Hardly any multiple targets; 11% - 2, 3, 4 of 4. 6 shots for the Ambi drill; 8%. 24% of the shots are designated head-shots; 36% if you include odd-angles.

No-one is going to be good at the HCM test without specifically practicing for it. I think every highly-ranked gun-game shooter is plenty capable of passing the test, but there's no way they're doing it without a ton of practice.

I'm personally pursuing HCM. I've shot the test many times with quite a few people who have passed it dozens of times...they all still consider the test hard and they fail to pass the course of fire more often then they succeed.

edit-to-add:
FYI I'm not trying to declare some sort of superiority to HCM over the run-n-gun stuff. They're all gun-games of a different sort.
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  #9619  
Old 06-20-2018, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
They're all completely different types of shooting. Presentation to the target has an extremely small impact on any of the gun games. Once they've 'cleared leather' its 90%+ about movement, economy of motion and split-times.

81% of the HCM test is 1 or 2 shots from the holster under time pressure. The times will be allot tougher then most realize. There's barely any movement - 15 responses and 1 palm-strike/step-back. Hardly any multiple targets; 11% - 2, 3, 4 of 4. 6 shots for the Ambi drill; 8%. 24% of the shots are designated head-shots; 36% if you include odd-angles.

No-one is going to be good at the HCM test without specifically practicing for it. I think every highly-ranked gun-game shooter is plenty capable of passing the test, but there's no way they're doing it without a ton of practice.

I'm personally pursuing HCM. I've shot the test many times with quite a few people who have passed it dozens of times...they all still consider the test hard and they fail to pass the course of fire more often then they succeed.

edit-to-add:
FYI I'm not trying to declare some sort of superiority to HCM over the run-n-gun stuff. They're all gun-games of a different sort.
I agree that you need to practice to pass the HCM. It is a awesome test of skill and those who pass are excellent shooters. I was only stating that some of the best guys are good shooters regardless of the game. All of the classifiers in USPSA are stand and shoot. No movement except perhaps, shoot xx, reload, then shoot xx strong hand only. So getting classified in USPSA is just like any of the FS tests.

You can take someone like Ben Stoeger and give him a few attempts and I sure he would get close. I have seen him shoot under any of the posted test times using a USPSA target. Some of the IDPA guys the close quarters shots and palm strike step back are stuff they do in matches. Again the targets are different, but I would like to see them try, just for fun.

Last edited by NorthBay Shooter; 06-20-2018 at 12:35 PM..
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  #9620  
Old 06-20-2018, 12:53 PM
NorthBay Shooter NorthBay Shooter is offline
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Default 10 yard el presidente and HCM test

just for context, Ben Stoeger, 10 yard el prez. back to target, turn, draw, two shots to each of 3 targets, reload, two shots to each of 3 targets. 3.8 seconds. only two shots outside of the "A" zone (down zero).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RD_Hqt2Z-A

for comparison, in HCM there is a response to the rear, single shot at 7 yards 1.4 seconds
or single shot to each of three targets at 5 yards in 1.8
the emergency reload time is 1.9

the only shots at 10 yards are controlled pairs center, 1.8 seconds.

this guy is doing, a turn and draw, 12 shots, and a reload in less than 4 seconds. Pretty darn good by any measure.

Last edited by NorthBay Shooter; 06-21-2018 at 10:38 AM.. Reason: more content
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