People who divorce - equal to traitors

[BullCatcher]

Relax.

[Just Dave]

Originally Posted by Not a Cook

I realize this thread was started in OT and was subsequently moved to "Discussions of Faith". That said, because it is here now, I think it would be prudent to consider what Christ actually taught regarding divorce. To wit, consider this passage from Matthew 19 (NKJV), verses 3 through 12:

The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”

And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”

He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

But He said to them, “All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.”

It is also prudent to consider what God tells us in Malachi 2:13-16 (NKJV),
And this is the second thing you do:
You cover the altar of the Lord with tears,
With weeping and crying;
So He does not regard the offering anymore,
Nor receive it with goodwill from your hands.
Yet you say, “For what reason?”
Because the Lord has been witness
Between you and the wife of your youth,
With whom you have dealt treacherously;
Yet she is your companion
And your wife by covenant.
But did He not make them one,
Having a remnant of the Spirit?
And why one?
He seeks godly offspring.
Therefore take heed to your spirit,
And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.
“For the Lord God of Israel says
That He hates divorce,
For it covers one’s garment with violence,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
“Therefore take heed to your spirit,
That you do not deal treacherously.”

Without writing a LOOOONNNNNNNNGGGGG post, suffice it to say the following:

• God hates divorce (as it sounds like the OP does);
• Moses only permitted (not commanded) divorce due to the hardness of men's hearts;
• there are scriptural grounds for divorce (i.e. adultery, remember Matthew 5:31-32 referenced previously by WASR10), and in such situations the "innocent party" is not to blame and is free to remarry.

Although not a popular notion, the OP is correct in that those who break their marriage covenants are breaking a vow not only to their spouse but also to God.

I'm guessing that ALL of us (or at least the VAST majority of us) here have been affected by divorce in many ways. Divorce sucks. God hates it for good reason. That said, it isn't the "end game". Even though God hates divorce, He offers forgiveness through Christ to those who have caused divorces - all you have to do is accept that forgiveness on God's terms. If you don't know what those terms are, just ask - the Scriptures teach them clearly. Not only does God offer forgiveness for divorce (and every other sin) through Christ, but He also comforts those of us whom it affects - both those of us who are affected by others' divorces and even those here who have themselves been divorced. God isn't seeking to condemn anyone here - instead, He's seeking to save us, because without Christ we're all condemned already (ref. John 3:17)

This sums it up nicely ^^^^^^

[NoHeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by TurboS600

Who is judging here? The two made a solemn vow in front of God and witnesses to love and honor till death they part. The OP is calling them on it.

Like YOU said - the OP is passing judgment on the couple...

[Untamed1972]

And yet their is literally ZERO "penalty" for a married person breaking every other marriage vow within the confines of their marriage so long as they stay married and don't have sex with anyone else.

Sounds like a pretty great deal!

Originally Posted by Not a Cook

I realize this thread was started in OT and was subsequently moved to "Discussions of Faith". That said, because it is here now, I think it would be prudent to consider what Christ actually taught regarding divorce. To wit, consider this passage from Matthew 19 (NKJV), verses 3 through 12:

The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”

And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”

He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

But He said to them, “All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.”

It is also prudent to consider what God tells us in Malachi 2:13-16 (NKJV),
And this is the second thing you do:
You cover the altar of the Lord with tears,
With weeping and crying;
So He does not regard the offering anymore,
Nor receive it with goodwill from your hands.
Yet you say, “For what reason?”
Because the Lord has been witness
Between you and the wife of your youth,
With whom you have dealt treacherously;
Yet she is your companion
And your wife by covenant.
But did He not make them one,
Having a remnant of the Spirit?
And why one?
He seeks godly offspring.
Therefore take heed to your spirit,
And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.
“For the Lord God of Israel says
That He hates divorce,
For it covers one’s garment with violence,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
“Therefore take heed to your spirit,
That you do not deal treacherously.”

Without writing a LOOOONNNNNNNNGGGGG post, suffice it to say the following:

• God hates divorce (as it sounds like the OP does);
• Moses only permitted (not commanded) divorce due to the hardness of men's hearts;
• there are scriptural grounds for divorce (i.e. adultery, remember Matthew 5:31-32 referenced previously by WASR10), and in such situations the "innocent party" is not to blame and is free to remarry.

Although not a popular notion, the OP is correct in that those who break their marriage covenants are breaking a vow not only to their spouse but also to God.

I'm guessing that ALL of us (or at least the VAST majority of us) here have been affected by divorce in many ways. Divorce sucks. God hates it for good reason. That said, it isn't the "end game". Even though God hates divorce, He offers forgiveness through Christ to those who have caused divorces - all you have to do is accept that forgiveness on God's terms. If you don't know what those terms are, just ask - the Scriptures teach them clearly. Not only does God offer forgiveness for divorce (and every other sin) through Christ, but He also comforts those of us whom it affects - both those of us who are affected by others' divorces and even those here who have themselves been divorced. God isn't seeking to condemn anyone here - instead, He's seeking to save us, because without Christ we're all condemned already (ref. John 3:17)

[Not a Cook]

Originally Posted by Untamed1972

And yet their is literally ZERO "penalty" for a married person breaking every other marriage vow within the confines of their marriage so long as they stay married and don't have sex with anyone else.

Sounds like a pretty great deal!

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Can you clarify?

[Not a Cook]

Originally Posted by NoHeavyHitter

Like YOU said - the OP is passing judgment on the couple...

Well, in John 7:24 we read that Christ said,

Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.

Earlier you cited Luke 6:37 to apparently suggest that Christians shouldn't judge, but that simply isn't true. Although Luke 6:37 appears at first glance (without larger context) to say that Christians shouldn't judge, that isn't what it's actually saying when you study it in context. Christians are supposed to judge, but they must be careful to do so without hypocrisy, righteously, and with the proper motivation. We are also not called to judge unbelievers, but rather those who profess to be fellow Christians (ref. 1 Corinthians 5). This page may be helpful for you to understand Luke 6:37 in its proper context: http://www.letusreason.org/Pent44.htm

[Untamed1972]

Originally Posted by Not a Cook

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Can you clarify?

Think about all the various things that are included in marriage vows:

Love
Honor
Respect
Forsaking all others (which includes NOT forsaking your spouse. Bible clearly commands to not deprive your spouse except by mutual consent).
Etc, Etc......


Yet people can exist in loveless, respectless, sexless marriages forever, and many Christians would be fine with that so long as their was no divorce or infidelity. I have personally witnessed this. Two people who obviously hated eachother, but stayed together because "divorce is bad", and were "applauded" for "respecting their vows", despite being miserable people, and miserable to be around too.

I'm sorry but I don't play BS games. I don't believe in doing things for appearances sake, and I don't believe that God looks favorably upon that at all. If you're going to tough it out and stay together....it means you're gonna stay together and WORK THINGS OUT. Staying together by sheer force of will where there is no love or desire to cultivate it and grow is a sham and certainly not Christ-like in anyway shape or form. And to somehow hold such people up as an example is a slap in the face to any honest hearted person.

[Not a Cook]

Originally Posted by Untamed1972

Think about all the various things that are included in marriage vows:

Love
Honor
Respect
Forsaking all others (which includes NOT forsaking your spouse. Bible clearly commands to not deprive your spouse except by mutual consent).
Etc, Etc......


Yet people can exist in loveless, respectless, sexless marriages forever, and many Christians would be fine with that so long as their was no divorce or infidelity. I have personally witnessed this. Two people who obviously hated eachother, but stayed together because "divorce is bad", and were "applauded" for "respecting their vows", despite being miserable people, and miserable to be around too.

I'm sorry but I don't play BS games. I don't believe in doing things for appearances sake, and I don't believe that God looks favorably upon that at all. If you're going to tough it out and stay together....it means you're gonna stay together and WORK THINGS OUT. Staying together by sheer force of will where there is no love or desire to cultivate it and grow is a sham and certainly not Christ-like in anyway shape or form. And to somehow hold such people up as an example is a slap in the face to any honest hearted person.

Thank you for clarifying; general speaking, I agree. I hope no one here would think such a loveless, lifeless marriage was acceptable. The Scriptures teach much about marriage; hopefully those of us who belong to Christ are heeding those teachings. I won't discuss them all here (because that'd be an excessively long post), but the commands to husbands and wives found in Ephesians 5:22-33 (NKJV) are a good starting point for such study:

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Christ calls us to follow Him and obey Him in every area, including our marriages. In fact, our marriages are supposed to reflect Christ's relationship with His bride, the church. Loveless, lifeless marriages are a foreign concept to such a requirement. I hope no one here would hold up such a sad "marriage" as a good example (except perhaps as a good example of what a marriage should NOT be like).

[Untamed1972]

Originally Posted by Not a Cook

Thank you for clarifying; general speaking, I agree. I hope no one here would think such a loveless, lifeless marriage was acceptable. The Scriptures teach much about marriage; hopefully those of us who belong to Christ are heeding those teachings. I won't discuss them all here (because that'd be an excessively long post), but the commands to husbands and wives found in Ephesians 5:22-33 (NKJV) are a good starting point for such study:

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Christ calls us to follow Him and obey Him in every area, including our marriages. In fact, our marriages are supposed to reflect Christ's relationship with His bride, the church. Loveless, lifeless marriages are a foreign concept to such a requirement. I hope no one here would hold up such a sad "marriage" as a good example (except perhaps as a good example of what a marriage should NOT be like).

I would agree....and that is my point. What is someone supposed to do when they find themselves in a marriage with someone who turned out not to be who they represented themselves as prior? Someone who will not do the work? Who is on a daily basis breaking every other aspect of their marriage vows and clearly has no intention of changing?

Why is the "don't screw anyone else" vow the only vow anyone seems to give a crap about? ALL of your vows are sacred!