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  #1  
Old 08-09-2018, 12:55 AM
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Default 7mm Remington Mag: Help me not blow up

So I am reloading 7mm REM MAG. I almost blew myself up because the powder I bought is handgun powder so I looked at some powder for reloading rifles. Sierra Match King listed IMR 4895 so I found some at my local gun store and took it home.

I get home and the bullets I happen to have are SPEER Boat Tail 145 grain. I look at their load data:

Quote:
Powder Start Weight Muzzle Max Weight Muzzle
Alliant Reloder 26 63.2 2853 69.7 3167
Alliant Reloder 19 63 2948 67 3153
Alliant Reloder 22 64 2919 68 3136
Alliant Reloder 25 65.5 2805 72.5 3106
IMR 7828 65 2974 69 3103
Alliant Reloder 23 60.8 2861 66.8 3101
Hodgdon H1000 69 2910 73 3090
IMR 4831 59 2920 63 3081
IMR 4350 56 2881 60 3070
Alliant Reloder 17 54 2867 59.4 3060
Hodgdon H870 76 2860 80 3037
Vihtavuori N165 64 2828 68 3019
Accurate 4350 60 2837 64 3015
Winchester 760 54 2819 58 3012
Accurate 3100 62 2826 66 3008
Hodgon H4350 59 2801 63 2987
Hodgdon H4831SC 59.5 2835 63.5 2981
They do not have load data for the powder that was listed with the SMK. So the only thing I used from the Speer load data was the OAL. I then looked at the numbers for IMR4895 for the SMK:

The SMK has two options near my bullet weight of 145: Either 140, or 150. The SMK140 listed the max charge as 55G. The SMK150 listed max charge at 51.8

Can anyone check my figures? Do you think that 49 grains of IMR4895 will be safe with a 145 grain speer bullet loaded to an overall length of 3.29" (83.6mm)?

Also:

I have a 2 die set. I notice it does not have a factory crimp die. The bullet is firmly-ish in the case. That is to say that it wont fall out with gravity or any other force short of grabbing the bullet and pulling hard. Obviously factory loads wont do this. I am concerned that in a semi-auto they wont be the correct OAL after feeding. Are there any issues with semi-auto rifles shooting reloads that have not had the specific crimp die used?
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Old 08-09-2018, 2:02 AM
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You need a load manual and someone to teach you wtf you need to know.
Imr 4895 is to fast a powder for a magnum.

Why are you buying powder without knowing what it’s for?
You need to read the load manual on your cartridge first, select a powder that is listed then and only then go buy that powder.
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Old 08-09-2018, 2:40 AM
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Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
You need a load manual and someone to teach you wtf you need to know.
Imr 4895 is to fast a powder for a magnum.

Why are you buying powder without knowing what it’s for?
You need to read the load manual on your cartridge first, select a powder that is listed then and only then go buy that powder.
Ok, I did a horrible job of explaining. Let me start over:

They have load data for a 7mm Remington Magnum using IMR4895 powder. They have this data for 140 grain SMK, and 150 grain SMK. My bullet is exactly in the middle (145 grain).

I took the low values from the 140 grain:
Minimum weight: 48g Maximum weight: 55.2g

and the values from the 150 grain:
Minimum weight: 47g Maximum weight: 51.2

So, with a 145 grain bullet, I chose 49 grains of powder as this puts me in the middle where all those values overlap, but is nowhere near the 51.2 grains max listed for the 150g

Is this flawed logic? If they have IMR4895 listed for one type of bullet, is it safe to assume that a bullet of equal weight by a different manufacturer is safe?

Why not use the powder listed? Well one, they didn't have any of the powder listed, and the rest of the long story short is:
This whole re-loading adventure is because I cannot find commercial lead-free ammo for my 224 Valkyrie. None of the lead free 224 bullets have load data for 224 Valkyrie. Bolt guns are more forgiving than Semi-auto so I am trying to cut my baby teeth on something that will be more forgiving if I get it wrong.
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Old 08-09-2018, 3:00 AM
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who's they? as in they have data on imr4895 and 140-150 grain bullets?

Two (None of the lead free 224 bullets have load data for 224 Valkyrie.) So why do you think you need data for a specific bullet?
Bullet weight matters, in the extreme case bullet bearing surface matters a bit, But pretty much you can take charge weight data and swap it with any bullet in the same grain weight for the same case.

If you have published data for IMR 4895 from a respected source, Yeah use it, start a few grains off max and work up.
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Old 08-09-2018, 6:10 AM
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E:

You should spend a year reading, talking to handliaders, taking classes, etc. before proceeding further because based on what you posted you don’t understand how all of this so is. You need to understand how a metallic cartridge works, how it is assembled, what the functions of each part are, etc.
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Old 08-09-2018, 6:10 AM
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E:

You should spend a year reading, talking to handloaders, taking classes, etc. before proceeding further because based on what you posted you don’t understand how all of this works. You need to understand how a metallic cartridge works, how it is assembled, what the functions of each part are, etc.
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Old 08-09-2018, 6:55 AM
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I don't see load data for 4895 on their page

https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2018/0...num-load-data/
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Old 08-09-2018, 7:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
E:

You should spend a year reading, talking to handliaders, taking classes, etc. before proceeding further because based on what you posted you don’t understand how all of this so is. You need to understand how a metallic cartridge works, how it is assembled, what the functions of each part are, etc.
^^^^^This.

And here's another thing to think about. Hornady claims its .30-06 load data for all 150 grain .308 caliber bullets is the same. So I worked up test loads in half grain increments using IMR 4064 (a powder listed in their load data) from 50-55 grains (midpoint to max). I started seeing pressure signs (flattened and cratered primers) at 51 grains and stopped before getting to 55 grains. IOW, take the load data with a healthy grain of salt.

There are no shortcuts. You need to approach reloading as if your life and your livelihood depend on it, because you could get hurt pretty badly.
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Old 08-09-2018, 7:11 AM
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I think you need to buy a Lee loading manual and read through it a few times. You can often substitute a heavier bullet published load data but do not use 140 grain data to load a 145. Than can be very dangerous and it tells me you arent ready to reload yet. Do your homework and dont always take advice from the internet.
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Old 08-09-2018, 7:21 AM
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Where are you located? If near me I will help you. I have loaded for the 7mmRem mag. Powders you want include IMR4350, IMR4831, Win760, RL19, RL22 and some others. Notice they are all slower powders than IMR4895 which was the original powder the 30-06 was designed around and still is a good choice for it BUT not for a 7mag.

Not trying to insult you but just because you cannot find the correct powders where you shop does not make it a smart move to just buy something not suited for the cartridge you are loading and try to use it.

The Speer bullet is an oddball sort of since they are the only one to make a 7mm bullet that weight. More common is 150 and 150 gr bullets in that range. For hunting you want the Nosler 140gr PAR or the Swift bullets in the same weight. Taken everything from pronghorn to elk with them. If you want to use the 145 bullets PM me and I can give you data for them from Speer...……….or buy the Speer book.

I also agree that by your posts it looks like you need to get a couple of manuals(start with the Lyman #50) and read them and reread them. Then if possible find a person who has been reloading for a long time to help you. That or stop now before you hurt someone and or get poor results. IMR4895 will not give you very good speeds and the main reason for a 7mag over something like a 7-08 is the extra speed it can give.
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Old 08-09-2018, 7:22 AM
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Where are you located? If near me I will help you. I have loaded for the 7mmRem mag. Powders you want include IMR4350, IMR4831, Win760, RL19, RL22 and some others. Notice they are all slower powders than IMR4895 which was the original powder the 30-06 was designed around and still is a good choice for it BUT not for a 7mag.

Not trying to insult you but just because you cannot find the correct powders where you shop does not make it a smart move to just buy something not suited for the cartridge you are loading and try to use it.

The Speer bullet is an oddball sort of since they are the only one to make a 7mm bullet that weight. More common is 150 and 150 gr bullets in that range. For hunting you want the Nosler 140gr PAR or the Swift bullets in the same weight. Taken everything from pronghorn to elk with them. If you want to use the 145 bullets PM me and I can give you data for them from Speer...……….or buy the Speer book.

I also agree that by your posts it looks like you need to get a couple of manuals(start with the Lyman #50) and read them and reread them. Then if possible find a person who has been reloading for a long time to help you. That or stop now before you hurt someone and or get poor results. IMR4895 will not give you very good speeds and the main reason for a 7mag over something like a 7-08 is the extra speed it can give.
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Old 08-09-2018, 7:54 AM
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Relative burn rate chart.

There might be a more recent one but this will get you started.
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Old 08-09-2018, 8:01 AM
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You need to buy a reloading book. For recommended powders.
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Old 08-09-2018, 8:29 AM
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The Lyman #50 manual is a good call. Well worth buying and reading. BTW, IMR4831 or H4831sc are long standard powders for the 7mm RM. But, more homework is needed first. Ask for assistance, you'll get it.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:04 AM
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BOOKS, BOOKS, BOOKS. It took a long time with no direct help, ( no one reloads near me ), and DO NOT listen to your buddies "this is what I use", study the manuals ! Sometimes a 5 grain difference can drastically change your pressure, no matter what powder you use and its even more critical on a magnum rifle load !
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:27 AM
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Anyone ignorant enough to use pistol powder in rifle cartridges without refencing a load manual should not load. Should put on pointy cap and sit in corner. How about blowing hand off or injuring others.
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Old 08-09-2018, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
who's they? as in they have data on imr4895 and 140-150 grain bullets?

Two (None of the lead free 224 bullets have load data for 224 Valkyrie.) So why do you think you need data for a specific bullet?
Bullet weight matters, in the extreme case bullet bearing surface matters a bit, But pretty much you can take charge weight data and swap it with any bullet in the same grain weight for the same case.

If you have published data for IMR 4895 from a respected source, Yeah use it, start a few grains off max and work up.
"They" refers to the Sierra Reloading Manual. 5th edition, page 462

Quote:
Firearm Used: Savage Model 116
Barrel Length: 26"
Twist: 1 x 9"
Case: Federal
Trim-to Length: 2.490"
Primer: Fed 215
I have attached the relevant section as a PDF to this post.

I live near Taft in BFE.

Thank you guys for your help. I don't want to blow myself up, but ultimately, I want to get to a point where I can safely load my .224 Valkyrie with leadless ammo and still retain some distance of the round without blowing myself up. If I can load 7mm REM MAG with the same powder, that would be ideal. Any help making sure I'm good is greatly appreciated.

I went ahead and bought a factory crimp die to make sure the round is nice and tight.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Sierramanual.pdf (393.1 KB, 11 views)
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12050[CCW] licenses will be shall issue soon.

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Ignorance of the law is no excuse……..except for police.

Last edited by E Pluribus Unum; 08-09-2018 at 12:07 PM.. Reason: Spelling error
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Old 08-09-2018, 2:31 PM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
Anyone ignorant enough to use pistol powder in rifle cartridges without refencing a load manual should not load. Should put on pointy cap and sit in corner. How about blowing hand off or injuring others.
We are all "ignorant enough" about something. I'm the first to admit I'm ignorant about reloading; that's why I'm here.

The measure of a man is not in his ignorance but how he operates in that condition.
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Originally Posted by Alan Gura
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
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Old 08-09-2018, 2:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
We are all "ignorant enough" about something. I'm the first to admit I'm ignorant about reloading; that's why I'm here.

The measure of a man is not in his ignorance but how he operates in that condition.
The bad news is that it's easy to blow yourself up reloading. The good news is that it's just as easy not to blow yourself up reloading.

If you have any questions please do ask here. PM me anytime. Glad to help.

And I would not use 4895 in a 7mm Mag.
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Old 08-09-2018, 2:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
If I can load 7mm REM MAG with the same powder, that would be ideal. Any help making sure I'm good is greatly appreciated.

I went ahead and bought a factory crimp die to make sure the round is nice and tight.
Okay, stop the train and back up. First stop buying stuff that you think you need. What round did you buy the factory crimp die for? Generally speaking, you don't need to crimp any rifle rounds, even those shot in semi autos.

IMR4895 is a powder for 223/308 sized rounds. Its not designed for use in magnum rounds. Magnum rounds use a slower burning powder. I'm also not sure where you found info saying where to IMR4895 in a 7mm Mag.
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Old 08-09-2018, 3:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalFocus View Post
Okay, stop the train and back up. First stop buying stuff that you think you need. What round did you buy the factory crimp die for? Generally speaking, you don't need to crimp any rifle rounds, even those shot in semi autos.

IMR4895 is a powder for 223/308 sized rounds. Its not designed for use in magnum rounds. Magnum rounds use a slower burning powder. I'm also not sure where you found info saying where to IMR4895 in a 7mm Mag.
If you go up a few posts, there's an attachment from the Speer reloading manual. OP may favor IMR4895 because he wants to use the same powder to load for his .224 Valkyrie.

Lyman's 50th doesn't list 4985 with the 7mm Remington Magnum, though it does list that powder with the 7mm-08.
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Old 08-09-2018, 4:15 PM
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Originally Posted by God Bless America View Post
The bad news is that it's easy to blow yourself up reloading. The good news is that it's just as easy not to blow yourself up reloading.

If you have any questions please do ask here. PM me anytime. Glad to help.

And I would not use 4895 in a 7mm Mag.
Would you use 4895 in a 7mm Rem Mag if there were published numbers for it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalFocus View Post
Okay, stop the train and back up. First stop buying stuff that you think you need. What round did you buy the factory crimp die for? Generally speaking, you don't need to crimp any rifle rounds, even those shot in semi autos.

IMR4895 is a powder for 223/308 sized rounds. Its not designed for use in magnum rounds. Magnum rounds use a slower burning powder. I'm also not sure where you found info saying where to IMR4895 in a 7mm Mag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackEllis View Post
If you go up a few posts, there's an attachment from the Speer reloading manual. OP may favor IMR4895 because he wants to use the same powder to load for his .224 Valkyrie.

Lyman's 50th doesn't list 4985 with the 7mm Remington Magnum, though it does list that powder with the 7mm-08.
It's actually from the Sierra Reloading Manual. It lists numbers for a 150 grain 7mm Rem Mag using 4895 Powder. Not only does it list numbers for that powder, it's the first one listed. I'll attach an image to this post.

Given the fact that the Sierra reloading manual lists a max powder weight of 51 grains with 150 grain bullet using 4895 powder, would you think it safe to load 49 grains with a 145 grain bullet?

I am hearing you guys loud and clear... "Don't use it." In the future I will not. I've already loaded up 40 rounds like this. Given that there are published numbers with that powder, would you pull all the rounds and reload or shoot them as-is given they are much less than the published numbers?
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File Type: jpg 7mmRemMag-4895.jpg (59.0 KB, 12 views)
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Old 08-09-2018, 5:11 PM
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Would you use 4895 in a 7mm Rem Mag if there were published numbers for it?
Only as a last resort or for reduced-power loads. Burn rate is too fast.
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Old 08-09-2018, 6:33 PM
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If you pull up Hodgens site and info for 7mm Rem Mag, they do not list 4895 as an option. (Both IMR or H)

Now what’s interesting to me is that Sierra not only list IMR4895, but they also list IMR4064. That is a similar powder to 4895, as it’s for .223-.308 sized rounds. Sierra has really great customer service OP, just for the sake of getting the info, you should call them ask about why they used that powder in a magnum round.
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Old 08-10-2018, 2:31 AM
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Well from my Lyman book imr 4895 is listed for the 7mm mag all the way up to a 154gr bullet
the 145 grain data shows 47gr to 54gs from 39,000 CUP to 52,000cup from 2617 to 2954 FPS

Now that the cat is out of the bag go look at the same reloading manual and you will see a difference of no less then 250 fps if you used 7828 and the powder charge is nearly double. that should tell you something. You are using a very reduced load in a very large case. that can spell disaster in some cases, just not advisable. The case should be filled at least 80% all the time. In consistent ignition, hang fires, yeah just something i don't want to deal with.

Just because a reloading manual says you can don't mean you should.
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Old 08-10-2018, 9:00 AM
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1st you do not need or want the crimping die. Do not crimp rifle rounds and especially those without crimping grooves.
Some confusion about 4895 powder may come from the fact that is a common powder for use in REDUCED loads in many cartridges that it is not a good choice for when loading full power loads. Reading the book will often tell you about reduced loads with 4895. I have at one time printed out a bunch of them for many different cartridges for use with new shooters that may not stand the recoil of full power loads.


You are a ways away from me but considering how off you are on reloading it may be worth a trip. If not you can PM me with questions and I would also give you my phone number to make getting answers quicker. I have done this with quite a number of other people and actually enjoy it. I am retired and have been reloading since the 1960's when I was in grammar school. I load for about 35 different cartridges. I have a Dillon 650 and 3 single stage presses with a spare stored. If you wanted to come by we could even load a few for you to learn and with the CORRECT powders/primers. Even better bullets for hunting or you could learn all the different rules to get Barnes all-copper bullets to shoot well and have excellent terminal performance on game. Barnes bullets need completely different rules to work the best. Took me about 3 years to learn about them. Now many of my firearms shoot them better than lead core bullets.
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  #27  
Old 08-11-2018, 6:22 AM
J-cat J-cat is offline
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E:

You don’t want to use 4895 because you’ll have a lot of airspace in the case left over and the power will just slosh around in there causing powder positioning issues like inaccuracy and poor ES/SD. You want to use powders that fill more than 90% of the case under the bullet, closer to 100% full the better.
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  #28  
Old 08-13-2018, 2:16 PM
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popeye4 popeye4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
Would you use 4895 in a 7mm Rem Mag if there were published numbers for it?





It's actually from the Sierra Reloading Manual. It lists numbers for a 150 grain 7mm Rem Mag using 4895 Powder. Not only does it list numbers for that powder, it's the first one listed. I'll attach an image to this post.

Given the fact that the Sierra reloading manual lists a max powder weight of 51 grains with 150 grain bullet using 4895 powder, would you think it safe to load 49 grains with a 145 grain bullet?

I am hearing you guys loud and clear... "Don't use it." In the future I will not. I've already loaded up 40 rounds like this. Given that there are published numbers with that powder, would you pull all the rounds and reload or shoot them as-is given they are much less than the published numbers?
Ok, I ran a couple of scenarios in QuickLoad to show you what happens with different burn rate powders. DO NOT USE THESE AS DATA FOR RELOADING ACTUAL ROUNDS!!!!

The first scenario is with 55.5 gr of IMR 4895 under the Speer 145 gr BTSP bullet. It results in a case filled to <80% capacity, max pressure of 53,561 psi, and muzzle velocity of 2959 fps.

The second scenario is with a more appropriate burn rate powder, Reloder 25. In this case, the charge is 71 grains, resulting in a slightly compressed load of 101.1% of case capacity. Max pressure is 53,428 psi and muzzle velocity is 3088 fps.

You can see from the pressure curve that the slower burning powder maintains a more consistent pressure behind the bullet, resulting in a faster bullet with the same peak pressure.

Now, other variables affect pressures (different brand or lot cases can have different capacities, different powder lots are slightly different, the throat dimensions of your barrel and how much "jump" you have to the lands, etc etc etc), so that's why you start at the low end and work up.

You probably aren't going to find a common powder that works in the .224 and the 7 mm. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

As others have said, you are pretty low on the learning curve. Get a couple of books and read them. Any of the reloading manuals have good noob sections (I wouldn't bother with the Sierra, as it is as old as dirt). YouTube is also a good source of info now. And don't be afraid to ask before making a rookie mistake. We all started at some point (and we haven't blown up yet, so we are not bold handloaders) and we're more than happy to bring you along. This is a case where old age and treachery is superior to youthful enthusiasm!
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Quickload file scenario 1.pdf (988.4 KB, 4 views)
File Type: pdf Quickload file scenario 2.pdf (989.7 KB, 1 views)
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  #29  
Old 08-13-2018, 2:52 PM
NiMiK NiMiK is offline
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Go with a different powder. $25 for another 1lb of powder is cheaper than a trip to the hospital.
There's a lot of good info in this forum from a lot of hand loaders with years of experience. Grab another manual or two and compare the data, do more research on different powder burn rates and how they're used. Experiments are great if you have the basic foundation set. The thing you do not want is an experiment without foundation and going blindly into it.
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