Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > SPECIALTY FORUMS > FFL's Forum
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-06-2018, 7:43 AM
Nardo1895 Nardo1895 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 103
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default When is a 50 Year Old Firearm Not a C&R?

I have a client who had a sporterized Enfield rifle shipped to me. He has a C&R + COE. I know the C&R regs say a sporterized military firearm is no longer a C&R. But the rifle is still 50 years old.

If I'm understanding the rules right, I can transfer a 50 year old Model 700 Remington bolt action as a C&R, but not a 70 year old Enfield converted to a sporting rifle? I suppose there is no way to prove when the rifle was "re-manufactured" which maybe ATF believes to be the new starting date for the 50 year C&R clock?

Going back to the hypothetical Remington 700, it could have a replacement barrel, trigger, stock, ... and still be a C&R, right?

I'm confused.

The issue ins't the transfer itself, its whether or not the 10 day wait applies.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-06-2018, 7:58 AM
Tyke8319's Avatar
Tyke8319 Tyke8319 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Fall River Mills, CA
Posts: 934
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Looking up the federal definition of C&R might help with your dilemma.
__________________
American soldier by choice. Made in America by the Grace of God.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. Rbt. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-06-2018, 8:41 AM
Tyke8319's Avatar
Tyke8319 Tyke8319 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Fall River Mills, CA
Posts: 934
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Typically to fall under C&R definition the firearm should be in it's ORIGINAL manufactured condition.

"ATF has recognized only complete, assembled firearms as curios or relics. ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics are not generally recognized as curios or relics."

Any spoterizing that takes place has altered the firearm from its original condition and therefore would not be considered a C&R
__________________
American soldier by choice. Made in America by the Grace of God.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. Rbt. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-06-2018, 8:44 AM
Ora Serrata's Avatar
Ora Serrata Ora Serrata is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Orange County
Posts: 823
iTrader: 53 / 100%
Default

Carefully read the second paragraph under #3. It states only in their original military condition. I ran into this just last week at a shop. Bought 2 sporterized rifles with cut stocks. Not in original military condition means it's treated as a modern firearm.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-06-2018, 8:57 AM
Tyke8319's Avatar
Tyke8319 Tyke8319 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Fall River Mills, CA
Posts: 934
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Once altered it's not ORIGINAL...ever.
__________________
American soldier by choice. Made in America by the Grace of God.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. Rbt. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-06-2018, 12:01 PM
robertmneal93 robertmneal93 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: East Bay
Posts: 65
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

I'm not saying I'm more or less right than anyone else, but here's what I read directly from the 27 CFR 478.11 Meaning of terms:
(also here is the link directly to the ECFR.gov page)

Quote:
Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
The official definition does not refer to "original configuration" but the ATF website does. So which source prevails? The CFR's, or the ATF's website? Given the ATF is supposed to be enforcing the CFR's as written, I would imagine the CFR would take precedent. I'm not a lawyer though

The "original military configuration" seems to come into play in the importation laws

Quote:
Surplus Military Firearms
A surplus military firearm is any firearm which has ever been possessed by a regular or irregular military force. Surplus military firearms are prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3); however, 925(e) authorizes licensed importers (FFL type 08 or 11) to import surplus military rifles and shotguns classified as curios or relics; and handguns classified as curios or relics which meet the sporting criteria. In order to qualify for importation the firearms must be in their original military configuration and cannot have been sporterized. Further, under the AECA, the importation of U.S.-origin surplus military firearms is generally prohibited without retransfer authorization from the Department of State. 27 CFR 447.57.

However, the ATF then talks about merging the importation laws with the definition of C&R to get that "original configuration" idea which is talked about in ruling 85-10. This ruling, however, seems to just deal with classification of imported military firearms when dealing with C&R.

This passage:

Quote:
In classifying firearms as curios or relics under this regulation, ATF has recognized only
assembled firearms as curios or relics. Moreover, ATF’s classification of surplus military
firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military
configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics and surplus military firearms not in
their original military configuration were not generally recognized as curios or relics by
ATF since they were not of special interest or value as collector’s items. More
specifically, they did not meet the definition of curio or relic in section 178.11 as firearms
of special interest to collectors by reason of a quality other than is ordinarily associated
with sporting firearms or offensive or defensive weapons. Furthermore, they did not
ordinarily have monetary value as novel, rare, or bizarre firearms; nor were they generally
considered curios or relics because of their association with some historical figure, period
or event.
I personally think this passage is saying to be imported as a C&R, it must #1 AND, #2 OR #3, of the actual law. This is pure speculation, as it doesn't explicitly say that in the ruling.


This document is referenced in the passage below as well.





Ah, yes. They've finally mixed together the legal definition of C&R with the importation ruling. But where is this combination written into law? Why is it not present in the definition of C&R? It seems like the FTB has essentially taken one consideration of C&Rs, which is importation, and mixed it with another, which is internal sales and transfer. So this isn't written in the definition of C&R, but it is written into the importation laws in the form of permissive regarding importation of milsurp C&R's. So how can they just blend together two flavors of the law like that? I personally don't know

Here we also see exemptions for sight changes, addition of scope mounts, and sling swivels, all clearly stated additions (and through logic, I would believe removal) of said items.
That being said, if someone adds a scope and removes the iron sights, if they can readily be reinstalled, is this a change from original configuration? I would think not
If someone grinds down the sight bases off the receiver and barrel, is this a change from original configuration? I would say yes, since re-installation is both unlikely and impossible.

It also clearly states that changing a stock with something that would be issued is ok as well. Does this mean that the enfield sold with just the buttstock, because the rest of the stock set was say, eaten by termites, is no longer a c&r in original configuration? What if somebody didn't have money to replace the front stock and handguards and sold the rifle to someone who intended to replace the missing pieces? Where does the line form to take the rifle out of original configuration? This segment does not specifically state what sporterizing is, and to what extent a sporter must be "sporter'd" to be out of original configuration.

Personally, besides for the conditions clearly listed, I would think that non-"original configuration" would start at permanent, irreversible change to the firearm (again, such as grinding metal parts off or jeweling a bolt), but that's my interpretation of it


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyke8319 View Post
Once altered it's not ORIGINAL...ever.
The problem I have here, is through this logic, if I take my Garand, throw it in a polymer sporter stock for a weekend of hunting, then come home and put it back into it's wooden, USGI style stock set, then technically I've removed it from being a C&R forever, as I placed it into a polymer sporter stock for a weekend. I think the "polymer stock" idea, as stated in that ruling, is more geared toward people who take an old bolt gun, jewel the bolt, throw a scope on, grind off all the extra bits, cut down as much wood off of it as possible. Again, simple speculation and just something I'm bringing up for the sake of discussion
__________________
Libertarian in philosophy
Rights oriented centrist in reality

Last edited by robertmneal93; 11-06-2018 at 3:17 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-06-2018, 3:12 PM
Nardo1895 Nardo1895 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 103
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Robert makes a good point. It does seem logical that ATF may be mixing what qualifies as a C&R and what can be imported as a C&R. However, even if true, ATF's webpage (in part) says this:

Curios & Relics
A regulation implementing Federal firearms laws, 27 CFR 478.11, defines Curio or Relic (C&R) firearms as those which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;

Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm.


Could be a case of agency overreach.

Maybe I should have asked my question differently. Maybe I should have asked "As a FFL, would you release a sporterized rifle that started life as a military C&R without requiring the 10 day wait?"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-07-2018, 7:49 AM
Tyke8319's Avatar
Tyke8319 Tyke8319 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Fall River Mills, CA
Posts: 934
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

No.
__________________
American soldier by choice. Made in America by the Grace of God.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. Rbt. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-08-2018, 2:05 PM
Nardo1895 Nardo1895 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 103
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Thanks, that's what I think as well although I don't think that is what the reg itself says.

Mike
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 3:55 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.