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  #1  
Old 05-21-2018, 6:40 AM
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Default 460 Rowland or 44 mag?

A friend of mine is switching to bow hunting this year and is looking to pick up a 44 mag for bears or cats. I was thinking a Glock 21 or 1911 converted to 460 Rowland might be a better option for him. This will not be a range gun, just a trail gun.

What says the calguns brain trust?
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Old 05-21-2018, 6:47 AM
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Default What kind of bear?

Unless you will be worried about Grizzly, I would think the Glock 20 is more than enough.

Even then, a lot of people in Montana use the 10 MM for hiking in Grizzly country.
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Old 05-21-2018, 6:52 AM
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Need to check the regulations, firearms are prohibited when bow hunting in CA. I heard they were trying to make it ok for CCWs but not sure what became of it. He might be stuck with sharp sticks.
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Old 05-21-2018, 7:08 AM
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I don’t recall ever seeing .460 ammo at Walmart...

But I don’t believe you can have a firearm with you when bow hunting (but it’s been a few years for me).
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Old 05-21-2018, 7:10 AM
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Old 05-21-2018, 7:13 AM
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Nope, no go on the handgun during archery only.

My buddy is a SCS and its a no go for him.

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Old 05-21-2018, 7:20 AM
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Originally Posted by pacmule View Post
Need to check the regulations, firearms are prohibited when bow hunting in CA. I heard they were trying to make it ok for CCWs but not sure what became of it. He might be stuck with sharp sticks.
Good point, I don't bow hunt so I forgot about that. I will remind him to check on that, but it would be more for his Montana trip. Our spot in CA has some big cats, but not many bears.
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Old 05-21-2018, 8:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Doggboy View Post
A friend of mine is switching to bow hunting this year and is looking to pick up a 44 mag for bears or cats. I was thinking a Glock 21 or 1911 converted to 460 Rowland might be a better option for him. This will not be a range gun, just a trail gun.

What says the calguns brain trust?
You can't carry a gun with you when you bow hunt during bow hunting season. It is illegal - even for backup.

You might be able to carry when if you are bow hunting during rifle/shotgun/pistol hunting season, but I am not sure. When I took my hunter safety class they said you could not have a gun with you if you also had a bow regardless of whether it was rifle or bow season.


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Old 05-21-2018, 9:31 AM
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44 mag
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Old 05-21-2018, 1:52 PM
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Montana or anywhere where there are big bears 44 magnum. Have him check out a S&W 329PD....25 oz. of recoil madness!!
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Old 05-21-2018, 5:24 PM
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The Norwegian military issues the G20 for polar bear protection to their Arctic patrol units and have never had issues with it not being able to put down a polar bear that has become threatening. Super hot loads come close to 44 mag loads and definitely are hotter than .357 mag loads. Many guides in Alaska are also now carrying the G20 or G29 and have not had any issues with putting down grizzlies when needing to. They also like having 15+1 rounds on board.
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Old 05-21-2018, 5:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carcassonne View Post
You can't carry a gun with you when you bow hunt during bow hunting season. It is illegal - even for backup.
Depends on where you plan on hunting. I grew up in Wyoming and I would always carry a revolver with me during bow season. To the OP question, If I was hunting in Montana I would favor the .44 over the .460 but that's me. While I also have 10mm, it does not compare to a heavy load of .44 so if I expected issues from critters smaller than bears them maybe the 10mm but for Grizzly or a an unexpected confrontation with an angry moose, I will stick with a 44 MAG, 460 XVR, or 500 Smith. In other words, the largest revolver your friend can use accurately. Just for S&G, I looked up the regs for back home in Wyoming and they have this question posted in their FAQs:

•Can I carry a firearm while archery hunting during the archery season? Yes. However, the law does prohibit the use of firearms in taking or finishing off any big or trophy game animals during the special archery season.

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  #13  
Old 05-21-2018, 5:45 PM
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There are some guides in Alaska that are comfortable using a G20 as their bear sidearm. I am not saying it is good or bad, but I think those guys would know better than I. Decent power, more rounds with less recoil than a heavy revolver so more rounds on target faster. Or so they say.
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Old 05-21-2018, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jeremiah12 View Post
The Norwegian military issues the G20 for polar bear protection to their Arctic patrol units and have never had issues with it not being able to put down a polar bear that has become threatening. Super hot loads come close to 44 mag loads and definitely are hotter than .357 mag loads. Many guides in Alaska are also now carrying the G20 or G29 and have not had any issues with putting down grizzlies when needing to. They also like having 15+1 rounds on board.
Polar bears are the devil. To me the scariest predator in the animal kingdom. They have little to no fear of man and have the mindset of If it moves, it is food. A black bear might say, hey, I wonder if I can take that guy. Brown bear is usually shy of people but will go after you if they feel threatened or are starving. A polar bear looks at you and says, hmm, lunch.
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Old 05-21-2018, 6:13 PM
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It's tough. 44 Mag is simple and plentiful. But the revolvers for them will be hefty. Unless you go with a Taurus Tracker.

460 Rowland is tougher to find. Unless you go with specialty ammo like Buffalo Bore or Underwood.

I wouldn't even want to try to get into reloading 460 Rowland. Bought ammo will be the better deal for that IMO, regarding usage and cost.

Or you could go 10 mm.

If it was me I would get a nice shoulder sling holster for a 44 revolver, lighter weight Taurus a plus and go with factory 44 Mag. You can't do much better unless you want a semi auto easier to carry pistol.

If it has to be semi auto pistol I would handload hot 10mm, or buy Buffalo Bore or Underwood.
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Old 05-21-2018, 9:54 PM
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If your gonna buy a new gun 10mm is hard to beat.NOw if you have a 45 laying around a 460 conversion would probably do well too.

Best if you reload for either of these two rounds too.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:06 PM
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I’d go 10mm or 44 mag. I have a Glock 21sf with glock 20 upper and mags. The trigger is familiar and I can manage the recoil.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...s-10mm.179145/
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:19 PM
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Get a G20/21, and get the Guncrafter .50GI upper if you want more power.
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  #19  
Old 05-21-2018, 11:06 PM
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I chose .44 magnum for backup / SD in the mountains....Easy to find ammo that is available in a wide variety of loads. VERY reliable and durable.

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Old 05-22-2018, 7:37 AM
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Archery regs not withstanding, for a larger bore trail gun I'd go with 44 mag just due to easier cartridge availability.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:55 AM
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I recommend the Glock 20 with Underwood 140 gr Xtreme Penetrators. That or Underwood 220 gr or 200 gr Flat Nose Hard Cast. All 3 loads pack a wallop and will put the hurt on anything that walks North America.

The G20 is lightweight and compact compared to any revolver and has 15+1 on board. There's a reason guides and artic law enforcement worldwide are choosing the G20.

The .460 Rowland is also a good choice as long as you don't mind spending more to purchase the conversion kit to convert a Glock 21. I would use Underwood 200 gr Xtreme Penetrators or Underwood 255 gr Flat Nose Hard Cast. The big problem with the .460 Rowland conversion is the threaded barrel and compensator for those of us in California. If he's in a free state, then no problemo. Otherwise, he'd have to have the comp permanently welded to the threaded barrel, so the slide and barrel/comp would all be one piece.

You could also consider the .45 Super or .50 GI. The problem with the last 3 calibers is ammo availability. 10 mm is hard enough to find, but forget finding ammo for the other 3 if you forgot to bring your own.

The .44 Mag is good if you don't mind the weight and recoil. That weight will suck if you have to hike a long way to your hunting grounds. I know people that have chased elk in grizzly country with a .44 mag as backup. After 15 mile days on foot, they were ready to throw that .44 in the bushes. You're also limited to about 1/3 the number of shots available compared to a G20.
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:04 AM
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Glock 20 is perfect. Keep it 10mm and get some hot Underwood ammo
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Old 05-22-2018, 1:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay-lee View Post
Glock 20 is perfect. Keep it 10mm and get some hot Underwood ammo
Hard to argue against 10mm 15 rds of 140 Grain Extreme Penetrators or 220 grain hard cast . Easy to put on target and lite recoil compared to a Big bore revolver.
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Old 05-22-2018, 2:12 PM
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Hard to argue against 10mm 15 rds of 140 Grain Extreme Penetrators or 220 grain hard cast . Easy to put on target and lite recoil compared to a Big bore revolver.
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Old 05-22-2018, 9:24 PM
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I have the 329PD which is so light it feels like a toy until you shoot it. I usually light off no more 12 -18 full power loads and back in the case it goes. 44 specials have just about no recoil but expensive to shoot.
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Old 05-22-2018, 9:32 PM
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Originally Posted by dozer wright View Post
Hard to argue against 10mm 15 rds of 140 Grain Extreme Penetrators or 220 grain hard cast . Easy to put on target and lite recoil compared to a Big bore revolver.
Ill take my chances any day with these loads and 15 rounds.
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Old 05-23-2018, 8:22 AM
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Speaking of chances, what do you think the chances are that you will have a opportunity to get off two rounds in heavy brush in an emergency let alone 15?


Something to consider....

This is what people envision when they argue that they have a 10mm with 15 round mags. Plenty of space and time to actually try and use 15 rounds.



So, if you are bow hunting and you typically wander through places like this...



And you either come across this because you had just taken game or in the process of dressing it, or you came across its food stash, or its cubs, or it just don't like you and you are now looking at this from a distance of 15-20 yards...or closer in heavy cover, you might have an issue. In addition, large bears can run over 30-40 miles per hour and can even run sideways faster than any human can run in a straight line.


What good is a 15 round mag going to do you if you only get one shot. Many people use the argument that "guides" use a 10mm as a sidearm for bear protection. Great, but what do they use for their primary weapon. Its not a 10mm, its either a rifle or a shotgun. Bow hunters don't have the option of carrying along a spare 375 H&H in their kit so they get a sidearm. Not saying what everyone should carry as that is a personal choice but you just may live...or die depending upon what you select and how proficient you are with it. Also depends on where you will be hunting. I also have to chuckle at the argument that a revolver is too heavy to carry all day. You can't carry a revolver but you can pack out an Elk Its only about 6-8 oz difference between a loaded 4" .44 and a loaded G20. Granted, the chance of a bear attack is rather remote considering the overall number of hunters and while some will carry, others don't feel a need for a sidearm.
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:51 AM
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There's a whole bunch of documented Brown and Grizzly defensive kills with multiple shots with 9mm, 10mm, and .45 ACP. The last one I recall killed the big brown during a charge in thick brush with 5 quick shots from a 9mm as the victim was falling backwards to the ground.

There's so much BS out there about not having a chance against a bear or cougar.

I was once charged by a big brown from 200 yards away and had all day to get off multiple shots - if I had a gun. Stupidly, the big magnum revolver I brought was in a drybag in a raft back on the beach. Fortunately, about a half dozen people ran around the bend when they heard me yell for them to come. The bear stopped its charge and reared up about 30 yards away when it saw all the people come around the bend. It then dropped back down, turned around, and slowly sauntered off.

I've also encountered cubs with mama a few times. Twice it got a little dicey and I had to unholster my pistol. It was in my hand, but I never had to point in. But it was a big comfort to feel it in my hand. Both times they slowly moved off and I continued on my way. I would've had plenty of time to get off multiple shots.

I've carried a big mag revolver in Alaska many times. It's not only the weight, it's the size and thickness. No matter what you do it always seems to be in the way. I've also carried a G20 in Alaska and it almost disappears in comparison. I have a titanium .41 mag that's nice to carry, it's light and small with less bulk due to the small 5 shot cylinder. But, it's only 5 shots.

You've obviously never packed out an elk either. After you dress it, you and your buddies or guides help pack it out. Often you'll have a cart or even a makeshift travois. Usually you leave most of your gear behind as you make a second trip. Many times they'll get an ATV close by to do the bulk of the work. So it isn't just you all by your lonesome.

There's a big difference between my big revolver and my G20 in the field. I'm damn glad some guides and bush pilots talked me into buying the G20 years ago before a trip. I had only carried big heavy revolvers up to that point and hated it.

There's a reason professionals that deal with big bears daily pick the G20. In my own personal experience, their advice has been right on the mark and I'm thankful for it.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:52 AM
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I can guarantee you that if I can get one shot off I could dump at least a half a mag. Nothing like a charging animal to motivate a Jerry Miculek like mag dump with 75% on target.

Last edited by deckhandmike; 05-23-2018 at 11:54 AM..
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckhandmike View Post
I can guarantee you that if I can get one shot off I could dump at least a half a mag. Nothing like a charging animal to motivate a Jerry Miculek like mag dump with 75% on target.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hairball View Post
Speaking of chances, what do you think the chances are that you will have a opportunity to get off two rounds in heavy brush in an emergency let alone 15?

Something to consider....

So, if you are bow hunting and you typically wander through places like this...



And you either come across this because you had just taken game or in the process of dressing it, or you came across its food stash, or its cubs, or it just don't like you and you are now looking at this from a distance of 15-20 yards...or closer in heavy cover, you might have an issue. In addition, large bears can run over 30-40 miles per hour and can even run sideways faster than any human can run in a straight line.


What good is a 15 round mag going to do you if you only get one shot. Many people use the argument that "guides" use a 10mm as a sidearm for bear protection. Great, but what do they use for their primary weapon. It’s not a 10mm, it’s either a rifle or a shotgun. Bow hunters don't have the option of carrying along a spare 375 H&H in their kit so they get a sidearm. Not saying what everyone should carry as that is a personal choice but you just may live...or die depending upon what you select and how proficient you are with it. Also depends on where you will be hunting. I also have to chuckle at the argument that a revolver is too heavy to carry all day. You can't carry a revolver but you can pack out an Elk Its only about 6-8 oz difference between a loaded 4" .44 and a loaded G20. Granted, the chance of a bear attack is rather remote considering the overall number of hunters and while some will carry, others don't feel a need for a sidearm.

^^^^ Sound analysis / advice IMHO. Guys *****ing about the weight of a .44 mag revolver versus the Glock 20 need to get into the gym...FAST! The Glock 20 weighs 30.7 oz unloaded, my S&W 629 Mountain Gun weighs 41.5 oz unloaded. I personally dont view defensive use of a handgun in a predator attack to be a gunfight requiring capacity as much as muzzle energy in a fast VERY CLOSE / contact distance engagement. I ride into the mountains on horseback and like the ammunition commonality with a Browning B-92 also in .44 magnum that rides in a rifle scabbard on my horse.
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Old 05-23-2018, 2:59 PM
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Actually, I have packed out Elk and deer in Wyoming and no, I did have guides driving ATVs or buddies with me to help me carry it all back out to an area where I could get my truck into and load it up. Not everyone hires or needs a support team to take them hunting.

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Old 05-23-2018, 3:33 PM
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I have smallish hands, but can shoot an N frame, X frame or Blackhawk/Redhawk no problem. A ******* G20/21 is like palming a basketball.
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Old 05-23-2018, 3:57 PM
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I have smallish hands, but can shoot an N frame, X frame or Blackhawk/Redhawk no problem. A ******* G20/21 is like palming a basketball.
I think a 2 x 4 is a better analogy....
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Old 05-23-2018, 5:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jeremiah12 View Post
The Norwegian military issues the G20 for polar bear protection to their Arctic patrol units and have never had issues with it not being able to put down a polar bear that has become threatening. Super hot loads come close to 44 mag loads and definitely are hotter than .357 mag loads. Many guides in Alaska are also now carrying the G20 or G29 and have not had any issues with putting down grizzlies when needing to. They also like having 15+1 rounds on board.
No

Fuooking

Way

Buffalo Bore ammo sells a 340g hardcastat 1400 fps out pf a 4-inch barrel. Almost double the energy of a 10mm wimp load. Routine everyday 44 mag is 265g at 1200 fps. Way over the 10mm.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...oduct_list&c=9

Big power is not for Glock fans bois
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  #35  
Old 05-23-2018, 6:34 PM
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deckhandmike deckhandmike is offline
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To each their own but 15 rounds will do the trick. If you guys want to carry 5 go for it. 10mm is not a .44 but it also has its advantages.
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  #36  
Old 05-23-2018, 8:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckhandmike View Post
To each their own but 15 rounds will do the trick. If you guys want to carry 5 go for it. 10mm is not a .44 but it also has its advantages.
The problem with getting into the Smoking hot and heavy Big bore revolver rds is recoil .
Keeping sights on target and being even slightly accurate with Follow up shots . Where as a G20 or 29 is much easier to have accurate follow up shots .
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Old 05-23-2018, 9:45 PM
Ridley75 Ridley75 is offline
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Originally Posted by Carcassonne View Post
You can't carry a gun with you when you bow hunt during bow hunting season. It is illegal - even for backup.

You might be able to carry when if you are bow hunting during rifle/shotgun/pistol hunting season, but I am not sure. When I took my hunter safety class they said you could not have a gun with you if you also had a bow regardless of whether it was rifle or bow season.


.
In California if you have a general season tag and are hunting during the general season with a bow you can carry a handgun.

If you have a general season tag and are hunting with a bow during the archery season you CANNOT carry a handgun.

If you are hunting under an archery only tag you CANNOT carry a handgun, even during the general (rifle) season.

I believe all the Rocky Mountain states allow you to carry a handgun while bow hunting...I know they do in Idaho Montana and Wyoming.
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:10 PM
WolfInSheeple'sClothing WolfInSheeple'sClothing is offline
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I'm just gonna leave this here:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...uct_list&c=108

It's a nice article on bears and stopping power. There is a second article in there too which is a good read.

Now for the longer post.

For what it's worth, I go backpacking in Alaska every year deep in the backwoods by myself. I choose to carry a Super Redhawk in .44 using the Underwood +P 340gr. hard cast. I run it in a chest rig so as to not interfere with my pack. It doesn't really bother me, but is about as much extra weight as I'm willing to carry.

Whatever one chooses to carry, just make sure you're proficient with it. I can guarantee in some of the deep brush I've been in, there is no way I'm getting off more than a few shots. If I knew I always had more than a few feet to work with, maybe I'd go with the 10mm. Unfortunately, I've been in a number of spots where I could have easily been ambushed with exactly zero feet between me and 'ol grizz (ex. high grass along the Kenai).

Finally, I believe hot 10mm actually touches on the .41 magnum range not .44. However, I guarantee no 10mm is coming close to the 340gr. Buffalo Bore/Underwood .44.
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Last edited by WolfInSheeple'sClothing; 05-23-2018 at 10:12 PM..
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  #39  
Old 05-24-2018, 6:08 AM
jeremiah12 jeremiah12 is offline
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Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
There's a whole bunch of documented Brown and Grizzly defensive kills with multiple shots with 9mm, 10mm, and .45 ACP. The last one I recall killed the big brown during a charge in thick brush with 5 quick shots from a 9mm as the victim was falling backwards to the ground.

There's so much BS out there about not having a chance against a bear or cougar.
Before buying my bear defense gun, I did much research. I read about real situations of people using guns in SD situations against grizzlies and polar bears. I discovered many cases of people successfully using 9mm, 10mm, 45 ACP, and .357 mag, in addition to the old standby of .44 mag.

Some that used less than .44 mag did so because that was all they had. Others that did was because due to physical limitations that was all they could handle.

The one thing in common, even those using a .44 mag needed more than 1 shot to get a kill. A pissed off grizzly will keep coming at you and when wounded will be even more pissed off. Unless you get a head shot, they often do not drop dead in their tracks and even with a head shot, they can still have some fight left. Count on needing fast follow up shots, even if you are in heavy brush.

That is why many who are highly experienced are going to 10mm and like the G20 or G29. With 15+1 and lower recoil than the .44 mag, follow up shots are extremely fast and more likely on target. There are certain times when you will encounter more than 1, like salmon season, and you do not have time to reload. With a revolver, you will be out of your 5 rounds and wondering what to do next when that 2nd or 3rd bear is coming at you. It is rare, but it happens.

I can get two shots off from my G29 within a second. When I do the RSO at my LGR gives me the warning of shooting too fast. I cannot do that with a .44 mag revolver.
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  #40  
Old 05-24-2018, 8:22 AM
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Do they even sell a 5 round .44 mag that everyone keeps referencing? I don't think anyone is arguing against a 10mm, its just that some have decided on carrying something else and people have a tendency to get offended if their recommendations are not taken as gospel. The OP asked about 44, 45, and 460 Rowland. As usual, the argument turns to none of the above and go with "X".

People should carry whatever they want; however, energy of a specific round is not cumulative. Making an argument that 15 rounds is better than six because of the total ft lbs of energy added together is inaccurate. It doesn't work that way. So in that analogy it's better to use a .308 over a 416 Rigby for an elephant because the 416 only carries 3 rounds which makes up about 15k total energy at 100 yards versus a 308 with a 10 round DBM that could produce 30k ft lbs collectively at 100 yards so a 308 is better and yet the minimum allowed to legally hunt them is a 375 H&H.

The same "collective" argument can be made using the 44 and 10mm. The hottest 10mm produces about 700 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle while the hottest 44 mag is around 1,530. So, using the more is better than less argument, you would have to be into your 14th round of 10mm to equal the six in a 44. The question is, do you really need to load the hottest ammo you can find for a specific cartridge or do you move up to the next larger cartridge. Yes, people have killed bears with smaller calibers just as people have taken elephant and cape buffalo with a .22 but does this prove that you don't need anywhere near the gun they say you do. As I have posted previously, use the firearm you are most proficient with and if that is a .357 mag then so be it. Some will select a 10mm while others go with a 44, 45, 454, 460, or 500. There are others that may still select "none of the above" and go with something entirely different than what has been posted so far. They will all work to some degree or another so just select the one that's right for you.

Last edited by Hairball; 06-08-2018 at 2:12 AM..
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