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Coronavirus/COVID19 Temp Forum This is a temporary forum for discussion, debate, sharing and helping each other during and in relation to the Coronavirus/COVID19

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  #1  
Old 10-06-2020, 11:58 AM
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Default Two studies: "memory B cells", hyaluronan

https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020...3371601912308/
Quote:
The common cold can make you miserable, but it might also help protect you against COVID-19, a new study suggests.

The researchers added that people who've had COVID-19 may be immune to it for a long time, possibly even the rest of their lives.
https://www.studyfinds.org/covid-fil...-liquid-jelly/
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Hellman and his team say scans on critically ill COVID-19 patients reveal white patches within their lungs. Autopsies of some of the pandemic’s victims uncover the cause of these patches. They show a clear liquid jelly which is very similar to what the lung looks like after someone drowns. Before the study, researchers say it was unknown where the gel came from.

Now, the Umeå University team concludes the jelly is made of a substance called hyaluronan. The material is a polysaccharide, which is a carbohydrate like starch, whose molecules are largely made up of sugar molecules.
...
Study authors say knowing what this jelly actually is can help COVID researchers focus on preventing these buildups. The study reveals the drug Hymecromone can slow down hyaluronan production caused by other diseases like a gallbladder attack. There is also an enzyme which breaks down hyaluronan. It’s typically used to reverse unsuccessful cosmetic procedures.

Another treatment that can cut down the amount of hyaluronan in the body is cortisone. Researchers say a British study found the cortisone drug Dexamethasone has positive effects on critically ill coronavirus patients.
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  #2  
Old 10-06-2020, 12:26 PM
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I believe Trump was supposedly treated with dexamethasone . It's fair to say that the US has gotten really good at treating COVID19. It's probably the one bright spot that we have in this whole mess - we've really been able to improve the outcomes for COVID19 patients, and IIRC we rank pretty much at the top of the world list when it comes to patient survival. We're awful at controlling it's spread, but at least we are good at keeping people alive.

As for the other article, the sample size is incredibly small. In fact, both articles suffer from very small sample sizes. This doesn't mean we should dismiss either of these proposals, but I'd be interested in hearing more study done into it.
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The study authors compared blood samples from 26 people who were recovering from mild to moderate COVID-19 and 21 healthy people whose samples were collected six to 10 years ago, long before they could have been exposed to COVID-19.
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  #3  
Old 10-06-2020, 12:46 PM
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Yep, Dr. Scott Atlas made this point about a week ago in a WH presser. He contradicted Dr Redfield who testfied to congress a couple weeks ago that 90% of the population is at risk. Dr. Atlas and some other experts say that's just not true, there is T cell immunity as well as other types of immunity to this virus.

That would explain why only 1/3 of the people on board the cruise ship in Japan who had been on the ship for near a month got the virus. Some are immune.

Of course this gets censored by the tech giants as the only acceptable source of information is the anointed experts spreading disinfo in the new 'science tribe' that doesn't follow science but insists they do. Think AGW where no debate is allowed any longer.

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2020/...dicting-w-h-o/

Here's an exchange from the WH presser:

Quote:
“If you look at the research – and there’s been about 24 papers at least – on the immunity from T cells, that’s a different type of immunity than antibodies, and without being boring, the reality is that according to the papers from Sweden, Singapore, and elsewhere there is cross immunity highly likely from other infections and there is also T cell immunity, and the combination of those makes the antibodies a small fraction of the people that have immunity,” Atlas said. “So the answer is no, it is not 90% of the people that are susceptible to the infection.”

“So I guess my question is, I’m not a doctor, I defer to your expertise and to his, but Americans hear one thing from the CDC director and another thing from you. Who are we to believe?” Alexander asked.

“You’re supposed to believe the science, and I’m telling you the science,” Atlas responded.
https://dailycaller.com/2020/09/23/s...bert-redfield/
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When the middle east descends into complete chaos in 2-3 years due in part to the actions of this administration I'll necro post about how clueless I was.
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  #4  
Old 10-06-2020, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by duenor View Post
I believe Trump was supposedly treated with dexamethasone . It's fair to say that the US has gotten really good at treating COVID19. It's probably the one bright spot that we have in this whole mess - we've really been able to improve the outcomes for COVID19 patients, and IIRC we rank pretty much at the top of the world list when it comes to patient survival. We're awful at controlling it's spread, but at least we are good at keeping people alive.

As for the other article, the sample size is incredibly small. In fact, both articles suffer from very small sample sizes. This doesn't mean we should dismiss either of these proposals, but I'd be interested in hearing more study done into it.
Can you cite specific countries that have done a better job and what exactly they did to control the spread better than we did?

I'd like to see data on the specific actions taken elsewhere that gives some source of proof that we could have acted differently and prevented some of the spread.

Of course one cannot overlook the elephant in the room of 25 million Americans taking to the streets in the middle of the worst global pandemic in history while the members of the 'science tribe' told the public that the risk of black genocide by police was worse than the risk of catching the Wuflu and therefor justified to protest and riot and not isolate and try to stop the spread.

Give me something concrete here.
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When the middle east descends into complete chaos in 2-3 years due in part to the actions of this administration I'll necro post about how clueless I was.
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  #5  
Old 10-06-2020, 1:29 PM
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And then there's a nature paper, that suggests cross reactive T-cell immunity is rare:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18450-4

The only correct answer is: "We do not know whether cross reactive T-cell immunity is A) protective or B) common."
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  #6  
Old 10-06-2020, 8:32 PM
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And then there's a nature paper, that suggests cross reactive T-cell immunity is rare:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18450-4
Gave it a skim, seems antibody focused, with very minimal discussion of t cells.

What am I missing?

-- Michael
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  #7  
Old 10-06-2020, 8:36 PM
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The cells that make antibodies (B-cells) do not act unless given orders by T-helper cells. That's how HIV F's you up by taking out the T-helper cell.
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  #8  
Old 10-06-2020, 8:59 PM
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The cells that make antibodies (B-cells) do not act unless given orders by T-helper cells. That's how HIV F's you up by taking out the T-helper cell.
That's fine, but I thought that one of the points being made by the Swedes and others was that they were seeing a T cell response in a noticeable number of actual sar-cov2 cases with no detectable antibodies. ( Basically, these were the asymptomatic cases IIRC )

So absence of antibodies does not necessarily imply no ( or very rare ) reaction by T-cells to an infection...?

As far as cross reactive T-cell immunity goes, I read a little while ago...

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563


Not so novel coronavirus?

At least six studies have reported T cell reactivity against SARS-CoV-2 in 20% to 50% of people with no known exposure to the virus.5678910

In a study of donor blood specimens obtained in the US between 2015 and 2018, 50% displayed various forms of T cell reactivity to SARS-CoV-2.511 A similar study that used specimens from the Netherlands reported T cell reactivity in two of 10 people who had not been exposed to the virus.7

In Germany reactive T cells were detected in a third of SARS-CoV-2 seronegative healthy donors (23 of 68). In Singapore a team analysed specimens taken from people with no contact or personal history of SARS or covid-19; 12 of 26 specimens taken before July 2019 showed reactivity to SARS-CoV-2, as did seven of 11 from people who were seronegative against the virus.8 Reactivity was also discovered in the UK and Sweden.6910

Though these studies are small and do not yet provide precise estimates of pre-existing immunological responses to SARS-CoV-2, they are hard to dismiss, with several being published in Cell and Nature. Alessandro Sette, an immunologist from La Jolla Institute for Immunology in California and an author of several of the studies (box 1), told The BMJ, “At this point there are a number of studies that are seeing this reactivity in different continents, different labs. As a scientist you know that is a hallmark of something that has a very strong footing.”


: shrug :

-- Michael
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  #9  
Old 10-06-2020, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by elSquid View Post
Gave it a skim, seems antibody focused, with very minimal discussion of t cells.

What am I missing?

-- Michael
There's a whole section, but it's kinda buried in a long paper:
Cross-reactivity and antigenic diversity
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  #10  
Old 10-06-2020, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by elSquid View Post
That's fine, but I thought that one of the points being made by the Swedes and others was that they were seeing a T cell response in a noticeable number of actual sar-cov2 cases with no detectable antibodies. ( Basically, these were the asymptomatic cases IIRC )

So absence of antibodies does not necessarily imply no ( or very rare ) reaction by T-cells to an infection...?

As far as cross reactive T-cell immunity goes, I read a little while ago...

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563


Not so novel coronavirus?

At least six studies have reported T cell reactivity against SARS-CoV-2 in 20% to 50% of people with no known exposure to the virus.5678910

In a study of donor blood specimens obtained in the US between 2015 and 2018, 50% displayed various forms of T cell reactivity to SARS-CoV-2.511 A similar study that used specimens from the Netherlands reported T cell reactivity in two of 10 people who had not been exposed to the virus.7

In Germany reactive T cells were detected in a third of SARS-CoV-2 seronegative healthy donors (23 of 68). In Singapore a team analysed specimens taken from people with no contact or personal history of SARS or covid-19; 12 of 26 specimens taken before July 2019 showed reactivity to SARS-CoV-2, as did seven of 11 from people who were seronegative against the virus.8 Reactivity was also discovered in the UK and Sweden.6910

Though these studies are small and do not yet provide precise estimates of pre-existing immunological responses to SARS-CoV-2, they are hard to dismiss, with several being published in Cell and Nature. Alessandro Sette, an immunologist from La Jolla Institute for Immunology in California and an author of several of the studies (box 1), told The BMJ, “At this point there are a number of studies that are seeing this reactivity in different continents, different labs. As a scientist you know that is a hallmark of something that has a very strong footing.”


: shrug :

-- Michael
There's definitely cross reactivity, but is it protective??? and how common is it??? No one knows right now. I think we'll have a vaccine before this question is answered, T-cell assays are much harder than antibody assays.
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  #11  
Old 10-06-2020, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by elSquid View Post
That's fine, but I thought that one of the points being made by the Swedes and others was that they were seeing a T cell response in a noticeable number of actual sar-cov2 cases with no detectable antibodies. ( Basically, these were the asymptomatic cases IIRC )
There's always the most basic answer: you might not be understanding what the Swedes were trying to say. Misinterpreting the reports is one of many possible explanations.

Just post the link to Swede article(s) and we can see if it has anything to do with the other links.
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  #12  
Old 10-07-2020, 12:14 AM
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That's fine, but I thought that one of the points being made by the Swedes and others was that they were seeing a T cell response in a noticeable number of actual sar-cov2 cases with no detectable antibodies. ( Basically, these were the asymptomatic cases IIRC )
Quote:
Originally Posted by HibikiR View Post
There's always the most basic answer: you might not be understanding what the Swedes were trying to say. Misinterpreting the reports is one of many possible explanations.

Just post the link to Swede article(s) and we can see if it has anything to do with the other links.
https://news.ki.se/immunity-to-covid...sts-have-shown

A new study from Karolinska Institutet and Karolinska University Hospital shows that many people with mild or asymptomatic COVID-19 demonstrate so-called T-cell-mediated immunity to the new coronavirus, even if they have not tested positively for antibodies. According to the researchers, this means that public immunity is probably higher than antibody tests suggest. The article has been published in the esteemed scientific journal Cell. [This news article has been updated]

(snip)

“One interesting observation was that it wasn’t just individuals with verified COVID-19 who showed T-cell immunity but also many of their exposed asymptomatic family members,” says Soo Aleman. “Moreover, roughly 30 per cent of the blood donors who’d given blood in May 2020 had COVID-19-specific T cells, a figure that’s much higher than previous antibody tests have shown.”

The T-cell response was consistent with measurements taken after vaccination with approved vaccines for other viruses. Patients with severe COVID-19 often developed a strong T-cell response and an antibody response; in those with milder symptoms it was not always possible to detect an antibody response, but despite this many still showed a marked T-cell response.



The article in Cell:

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S...674(20)31008-4

-- Michael
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  #13  
Old 10-07-2020, 5:21 AM
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Our study was cross-sectional in nature and limited in terms of clinical follow-up and overall donor numbers in each outcome-defined group. It therefore remains to be determined whether robust memory T cell responses in the absence of detectable circulating antibodies can protect against severe forms of COVID-19.
1) As a cross-sectional study (If a randomized controlled trial is #1 in evidence strength then cross-sectional is a lowly #5*) it can only provide motivation for further study rather than evidence to guide medical decisions.
2) There is evidence of cross-reactivity, but that's not surprising really since cross-reactivity has been in medical science for centuries. The trick is finding a good cross-reactive virus candidate that's not MERS or SARS1.0.
3) CD8 T-cells need to be activated just like CD4 T-cells, so some kind of exposure and adaptation must happen before you run across COVID-19. You can't assume your CD8 cells have gone through this anymore than you can assume a gun is not loaded.
4) The biggest takeaway is that there's enough going on in that paper to support efforts to produce a vaccine. Cross-reactivity was the basis for the first vaccines against small-pox, and the word vaccine is derived from "vaca", which is in reference to cow-pox.

*If a Systematic Review is #1 then cross-sectional drops to #6.

Last edited by HibikiR; 10-07-2020 at 5:37 AM..
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