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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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Old 09-03-2013, 12:40 AM
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Default Asleep at a rest stop

If I'm asleep in my car at 3am at a rest stop off Interstate 10, am I allowed to have a loaded pistol on my person? I am not a CCW. I'm asking because I did catch some winks near Chiriaco Summit the other night, which if you're familiar, is a very remote area and I felt quite vulnerable, especially as the windows had to be open because of the heat. In that circumstance, is my car considered my campground?
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:59 AM
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Rest stops are the bath houses of the 90s.
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Old 09-03-2013, 1:57 AM
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Rest stops are the bath houses of the 90s.
LMAO
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Old 09-03-2013, 2:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ilikerugers View Post
If I'm asleep in my car at 3am at a rest stop off Interstate 10, am I allowed to have a loaded pistol on my person? I am not a CCW. I'm asking because I did catch some winks near Chiriaco Summit the other night, which if you're familiar, is a very remote area and I felt quite vulnerable, especially as the windows had to be open because of the heat. In that circumstance, is my car considered my campground?
Let's say it there is no case law directly on point (there might be, or at least something close, I haven't researched it). You might a have a colorable legal claim/defense. Those don't always work, even better ones than this (which is a bit weak, IMO). So you are going to have to weigh the consequences and make a decision. Personally, I would plan better, and/or find a motel.
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Old 09-03-2013, 4:32 AM
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Rest stops are nit the best places to sleep. Being a truck driver I tend to avoid them and truck stops if possible. Find a better place like a nice shady spot off the highway.
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Old 09-03-2013, 4:47 AM
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Rest stops are the bath houses of the 90s.
Ate you speaking from personal experience lol?


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Old 09-03-2013, 6:37 AM
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Leave the key in lock of your guncase with ammo in case next to firearm and sleep with it . Legal and can get to it and load quickly.
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Old 09-03-2013, 8:50 AM
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I would say that the law is still crystal clear on the topic. You are in a public area, so unless you have a CCW then you can't have a loaded gun in the car. This one is not that hard, since the PC for having guns in the car does not make exceptions for "while you're sleeping".
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Old 09-03-2013, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ilikerugers View Post
If I'm asleep in my car at 3am at a rest stop off Interstate 10, am I allowed to have a loaded pistol on my person? I am not a CCW. I'm asking because I did catch some winks near Chiriaco Summit the other night, which if you're familiar, is a very remote area and I felt quite vulnerable, especially as the windows had to be open because of the heat. In that circumstance, is my car considered my campground?
Sir,

I can't think of any avenue that would lawfully allow for CCW without a permit. All of the DOT Rest Stops that I have visited have clearly written signs indicating that "Camping is Prohibited". That notice would likely defeat any claim that you were CCW within a campsite.

As a practical matter, I read of a shooting involving the Virginia State Police that occurred almost 40 years ago. A gentleman had gone to a rest stop and was sleeping in the front seat of his car. He had a handgun concealed by his side. Troopers had some issue with the vehicle (I don't recall exactly what is was) and they tapped on his window to awaken hin. He was apparently startled and raised his gun. You can imagine the rest of the story.

The paper did a bio on the deceased subject. He had a CCW permit. There was no indication of criminality. The best read of the evidence is that he just didn't have the right "situational awareness" upon being awakened.

That's a good point to consider when CCW.
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Old 09-03-2013, 10:19 AM
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OP to take your question to the next level. Imagine a housing disadvantaged individual sleeping in the outside doorway of a business is say San Francisco. He maintains a loaded unlocked firearm on his person. He would not be camping, even though he is sleeping.

How would the Honorable Mr Yee view this?
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:02 PM
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OP to take your question to the next level. Imagine a housing disadvantaged individual sleeping in the outside doorway of a business is say San Francisco. He maintains a loaded unlocked firearm on his person. He would not be camping, even though he is sleeping.

How would the Honorable Mr Yee view this?
Yee would blame the man's situation (homeless, unemployed) on the gun itself.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:05 PM
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Better to be judged by 12 than carried out by 6.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:10 PM
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I would say that the law is still crystal clear on the topic. You are in a public area, so unless you have a CCW then you can't have a loaded gun in the car. This one is not that hard, since the PC for having guns in the car does not make exceptions for "while you're sleeping".
Imagine instead a an RV camper parked off the highway on a dirt road (still public), with a guy sleeping in the bed in the back. Different outcome? Now where is the line? It isn't crystal clear. In fact, generally if you think the law is "crystal clear" on something, it isn't. Otherwise we would not need lawyers.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
Leave the key in lock of your guncase with ammo in case next to firearm and sleep with it . Legal and can get to it and load quickly.
This^
Get a container that can easily be unlocked.
Personally, I would just have the gun loaded. It may be illegal but I wouldn't want to be fumbling with a lock in the event you need to defend yourself.

I'm not saying you should do that, it's illegal, don't listen to me I'm crazy.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:31 PM
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Get a gunvault thing where you can use the finger combo to rapidly unlock and open the safe.
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Old 09-03-2013, 10:35 PM
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Many good points. And, yes, better planning probably would have been a good idea. BTW, I didn't notice a sign that read 'no camping', but I did see signs marked "No parking over 8 hours".
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:39 AM
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How far are you willing to push it?

Calgunner got arrested for the ol' locked box with loaded mags and pistol bit in his car. He got out of jail, and Calguns got the charges dropped, but he still took the trip downtown.

Some girl in Riverside, late 90s, fell asleep in her car with a gun. What do you think happened when her friends called the police because they were afraid of getting shot when she woke up? I think her next of kin won some money. Little good it did her.

I've driven cross country a bunch and slept in a loooot of rest areas, and never had a problem. Well once, with a looooooonely trucker in a rest room, but that was it!

(It was cold and he was talking to someone on the phone, but behind the door, so it was super freaky to hear him before I saw him. Dude was a giant, speaking Greek to make it even more surreal at 3 am)

Honestly though I've never even seen a hint of trouble, except maybe on the trucker side, and even then.
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:50 AM
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Good subject. In my non expert opinion, I would think the current law still stands- unloaded and ammo separate. (With no CCW onboard)
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
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Imagine instead a an RV camper parked off the highway on a dirt road (still public), with a guy sleeping in the bed in the back. Different outcome? Now where is the line? It isn't crystal clear. In fact, generally if you think the law is "crystal clear" on something, it isn't. Otherwise we would not need lawyers.
Not a valid comparison since an RV/camper is specifically designed with a living or sleeping area. One example is that it is legal to have an open container of alcohol in the living area of an RV, but not the back seat of a car.

As to the OP's thought on "camping" I'm not sure it would work, as previously mentioned all dot rest stops have clear signage of no camping. Most of the time a quick nap for a few hours is fine overnight not so much.
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Old 09-04-2013, 7:37 AM
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Better to be judged by 12 than carried out by 6.

This is what it boils down to. It ain't gonna be legal anywhere, but it's a nasty world out there & being prepared beats being dead.


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Old 09-04-2013, 8:23 AM
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If I'm asleep in my car at 3am at a rest stop off Interstate 10, am I allowed to have a loaded pistol on my person? I am not a CCW. I'm asking because I did catch some winks near Chiriaco Summit the other night, which if you're familiar, is a very remote area and I felt quite vulnerable, especially as the windows had to be open because of the heat. In that circumstance, is my car considered my campground?
Couple things to consider here. Chiriaco Summit is a privately owned area which means you are subject to the rules of the owners, Chiriaco Inc. http://www.chiriacosummit.com/

The question should be, is my car my current domicile? Not campground.

Other factors to consider, this area is an unincorporated area,(just throwing that out)

Do you really want a loaded handgun on your person while sound asleep with the car wide open? A bad guy, or two or three, would have the advantage over you while you are asleep to prevent you from doing anything anyway.

I would get a room.

4th Circuit United States v. Masciandaro, guns in cars in National Parks may not have standing in CA but it could be persuasive.
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:53 PM
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Not a valid comparison since an RV/camper is specifically designed with a living or sleeping area.
Please show me where the law makes that "specific design" distinction.
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Old 09-04-2013, 2:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Tincon View Post
Please show me where the law makes that "specific design" distinction.
California Vehicle Code sections 242 & 243
Camp Trailer
242. A “camp trailer” is a vehicle designed to be used on
a highway, capable of human habitation for camping or
recreational purposes, that does not exceed 16 feet in overall
length from the foremost point of the trailer hitch to the rear
extremity of the trailer body and does not exceed 96 inches in
width and includes any tent trailer. Where a trailer
telescopes for travel, the size shall apply to the trailer as fully
extended. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a
camp trailer shall not be deemed to be a trailer coach.
Added Ch. 1536, Stats. 1971. Operative May 3, 1972.
Camper
243. A “camper” is a structure designed to be mounted
upon a motor vehicle and to provide facilities for human
habitation or camping purposes. A camper having one axle
shall not be considered a vehicle.
Amended Ch. 228, Stats. 1968. Effective May 29, 1968

CVC section 362 defines a house car or RV
House Car
362. A “house car” is a motor vehicle originally designed,
or permanently altered, and equipped for human habitation,
or to which a camper has been permanently attached. A
motor vehicle to which a camper has been temporarily
attached is not a house car except that, for the purposes of
Division 11 (commencing with Section 21000) and Division 12
(commencing with Section 24000), a motor vehicle equipped
with a camper having an axle that is designed to support a
portion of the weight of the camper unit shall be considered a
three-axle house car regardless of the method of attachment
or manner of registration. A house car shall not be deemed to
be a motortruck.
Amended Ch. 875, Stats. 1968. Effective November 13, 1968.

CVC section 23229 is exemptions for alcohol in a motor vehicle.

Possession of Alcoholic Beverages: Exceptions
23229. (a) Except as provided in Section 23229.1,
Sections 23221 and 23223 do not apply to passengers in any
bus, taxicab, or limousine for hire licensed to transport
passengers pursuant to the Public Utilities Code or proper
local authority, or the living quarters of a housecar or camper.
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Old 09-04-2013, 2:10 PM
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ummmmm
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Old 09-04-2013, 3:56 PM
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And where do the carry statues provide an exemption for carry in a motor vehicle which is also a “house car”?
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Old 09-04-2013, 7:56 PM
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A rest stop is just that, a place to rest not a campground. Your allowed to be there 10hours Max.
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Old 09-04-2013, 9:24 PM
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Not a pro but I believe the law says something like in a camp sight or temporary residence. This says to me on public land not designated for any other use. That would include federal/state land and federal parks where possession is not prohibited. I do not read a private camp ground open to the public or any incorporated or unincorporated where it is unlawful to carry without a CCW. But the bottom line is this state sucks when it comes to gun laws.
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Old 09-04-2013, 9:36 PM
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Quote:
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And where do the carry statues provide an exemption for carry in a motor vehicle which is also a “house car”?
There is no specific exemption spelled out, (and I never said there was). There may be existing case law on the subject but I don't have access to a legal source book to check. That being said there is a greater expectation of privacy in a motor home than there would be in a car, truck, or suv, since that vehicle is specifically designed and defined as suitable for habitation. Parked at a rest stop with someone sleeping in it with a loaded firearm near by. I would tend to think would lean a bit more toward legal, than the same scenario with a car. How CHP would feel is anyone's guess, but it would not be in plain sight when they knock on the door to check on the occupant, if they still do that.

That is one of the reasons there is case law same general rules or laws apply, but may or may not given the circumstances. However I thought I saw some no weapons signs posted at rest stops along I 5. I will check closer next week on the way to Oregon.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:04 PM
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Better to be judged by 12 than carried out by 6.
Until a CHP rolls up and asks you a few questions....Not smart to be giving out advice like that.
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
There is no specific exemption spelled out, (and I never said there was). There may be existing case law on the subject but I don't have access to a legal source book to check. That being said there is a greater expectation of privacy in a motor home than there would be in a car, truck, or suv, since that vehicle is specifically designed and defined as suitable for habitation. Parked at a rest stop with someone sleeping in it with a loaded firearm near by. I would tend to think would lean a bit more toward legal, than the same scenario with a car. How CHP would feel is anyone's guess, but it would not be in plain sight when they knock on the door to check on the occupant, if they still do that.

That is one of the reasons there is case law same general rules or laws apply, but may or may not given the circumstances.
You are making the same point I was.

Quote:
However I thought I saw some no weapons signs posted at rest stops along I 5. I will check closer next week on the way to Oregon.
Even if there were such a sign, it would not in and of itself create a criminal prohibition.
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Old 09-09-2013, 2:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikerugers View Post
If I'm asleep in my car at 3am at a rest stop off Interstate 10, am I allowed to have a loaded pistol on my person? I am not a CCW. I'm asking because I did catch some winks near Chiriaco Summit the other night, which if you're familiar, is a very remote area and I felt quite vulnerable, especially as the windows had to be open because of the heat. In that circumstance, is my car considered my campground?
I cannot answer your question but my step dad and mom slept in their car at a rest stop and some guy tried opening the door to get to my mother. My step dad was sleeping with his seat back and his jacket covering him. My mom wasnt reclined fully in the driver seat. They weren't armed but my step dadchased the guy. Didn't catch him though. He said that he chased him to a fence that had a hole cut in it and a path into a field on the other side.

Be careful out there.
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Old 09-09-2013, 6:34 AM
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Yee would blame the man's situation (homeless, unemployed) on the gun itself.
Yep....
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Old 09-09-2013, 8:00 AM
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My parents had a problem at a reststop when I was growing up. Reststops attract the criminal element and for good reason: everyone sleeping there is obviously more vulnerable, often carrying stuff capable of quickly being sold, not local for quick follow up, and often not protected by any security. Stay safe. They are dangerous areas.
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Old 09-17-2013, 8:34 PM
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PC 25400 (formerly 12025) makes concealing a handgun illegal. PC 25850 (formerly 12031) makes loading illegal. There are some exceptions to these, including being in your residence, which includes any temporary residence or campsite.

So do either your car or the rest stop qualify as a temporary residence or campsite. I doubt it very much. Here are some legal definitions for campsite: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...&postcount=598

I think the biggest problem in California is that camping is prohibited in rest stops.

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/maint/ra/policy.htm

As others have suggested, LUCC is your best option.
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