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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #121  
Old 02-27-2013, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by odysseus View Post
That's pretty much creating a false dilemma, and to paint yourself as more the heroic character that is being criticized for speaking. I did not say that in the least. Using words also like "worshipful" is really just disingenuous - unless you actually believe that unreasonable position you draw.
OK so where is the line? Is it not ok to reference a loss (or losses) by CGF when there are no other posts on the subject? Let's not be so dramatic, I'm no hero, but I'm also no villain with a "vendetta". I am suggesting that the whole story be told.
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Last edited by Tincon; 02-27-2013 at 10:32 PM..
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  #122  
Old 02-27-2013, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Tincon View Post
OK so where is the line? Is it not ok to reference a loss (or losses) by CGF when there are no other posts on the subject? Let's not be so dramatic, I'm no hero, but I'm also no villain with a "vendetta". I am suggesting that the whole story be told.
Is your aim to criticize all pro-2A groups or organizations that err - or is it just the CGF?

Can you show a trend of objectivity?

I will make the same offer to you. You think you can do better than CGF, and pretty much everyone, so it seems. I have $500 to donate if you can get an effective organization started in the next 90 days. Show a record of success and there will be a much larger check.
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  #123  
Old 02-27-2013, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
Is your aim to criticize all pro-2A groups or organizations that err - or is it just the CGF? Can you show a trend of objectivity?
Certainly. Objectivity is exactly what I am asking for. If any other group gets a suit dismissed at the pleading stage and does not post about it here I absolutely will. I will also comment on it. And if they rack up a dozen of them, you can bet I will also comment on that. I have actually already commented on a recent Gorski mess. Unsurprisingly, there was no blow-back here from that post.

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Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
I will make the same offer to you. You think you can do better than CGF, and pretty much everyone, so it seems. I have $500 to donate if you can get an effective organization started in the next 90 days. Show a record of success and there will be a much larger check.
Believe it or not I have no financial stake in this, and I don't want your money. Right now the cases that need to be filed have been filed. There are at least four cases pending before the 9th right now. If and when I see a litigation opportunity that needs funding I will make it public, as well as the 501(c)(3) that is set up to receive the funds.
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Last edited by Tincon; 02-27-2013 at 11:07 PM..
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  #124  
Old 02-27-2013, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tincon View Post
Certainly. Objectivity is exactly what I am asking for. If any other group gets a suit dismissed at the pleading stage and does not post about it here I absolutely will. I will also comment on it. And if they rack up a dozen of them, you can bet I will also comment on that. I have actually already commented on a recent Gorski mess. Unsurprisingly, there was no blow-back here from that post.



Believe it or not I have no financial stake in this, and I don't want your money. Right now the cases that need to be filed have been filed. There are at least four cases pending before the 9th right now. If and when I see a litigation opportunity that needs funding I will make it public, as well as the 501(c)(3) that is set up to receive the funds.
I disagree - I don't think you can show a trend of objectivity. There is far too much personal animosity shown in some of your posts.

If Gorski was here, had a record of helping out a few people, and you had a few score of posts disparaging his efforts, there would be lash back. I know that the CGF has been successful in helping people with 2A related issues. That might be one reason you get some lash back. Another might be the overall trend of your posts.

I look forward to seeing how this particular case plays out. A setback such as this is not good. I've been able to look back and learn from my mistakes in the past. Perhaps the plaintiffs will end up with what they want - I certainly hope so.
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  #125  
Old 02-27-2013, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
There is far too much personal animosity shown in some of your posts.
I'll admit there were some posts after the Peterson case that had some animus. I was very frustrated by that case, the way it was mishandled, and the cavalier attitude about it on the part of Gray and the CGF. Peterson makes this case look like an downright victory.

But nothing I've said about CGF is in any way false. I have only pointed out what they have swept under the rug. If I see that from some other group (besides Gorski, who I have already called out for bad litigation) I will absolutely post about it. Does that seem fair?
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  #126  
Old 02-28-2013, 12:29 AM
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Tincon- Post your self silly. I support it. Post all the false starts, dismissals and losses. Post it.

I support CGF and others like SAF being on the cutting edge of civil rights litigation. We wont like all the answers, but I aint getting any younger and neither is the 5-4 vote in SCOTUS.

so I support CGF suing the government and I support your posting about the realities of trailblazing litigation strategies.

We are living in historic times.

some will write history and some will have to content writing about the history makers.
I am with you on supporting CGF, SAF and others like them. Good call.

I DO understand the probing of cases to see just how far something can be taken. You DO have to take a loss sometimes or tilt at a windmill or two.

My concern goes only as far as to if CGF informed their client they are up a creek and they were most likely going to loose. If they were willing to give it a shot, then really that is up to the business to fight it or not. If any lawyer gave the impression they would (not COULD, but WOULD) actually win this case on some insane 14th amendment non-sense then I do worry a bit. Hopefully it wasn't a huge resource hog to make one hail mary pass to the end zone.

I do think it was a HUUUUUUUGE reach, but sometimes you do that. Look at our lawmakers trying to ban everything, same thing. Go for everything take what you get. It's like the titanic only full of bears!
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  #127  
Old 02-28-2013, 12:55 AM
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rootuser - I'm sure that I've adequately responded to your concerns in post #102.
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  #128  
Old 02-28-2013, 1:04 AM
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Careful rootuser, people might start to think you have a personal vendetta.
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  #129  
Old 02-28-2013, 6:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Tincon View Post
Certainly. Objectivity is exactly what I am asking for. If any other group gets a suit dismissed at the pleading stage and does not post about it here I absolutely will. I will also comment on it. And if they rack up a dozen of them, you can bet I will also comment on that. I have actually already commented on a recent Gorski mess. Unsurprisingly, there was no blow-back here from that post.



Believe it or not I have no financial stake in this, and I don't want your money. Right now the cases that need to be filed have been filed. There are at least four cases pending before the 9th right now. If and when I see a litigation opportunity that needs funding I will make it public, as well as the 501(c)(3) that is set up to receive the funds.
I've highlighted part of the above. In reference:
Which cases?
Do you have any involvement in any of these cases? Litigation, research for the litigator, anything like that?
I'd like to see your forecast regarding these cases, and I'm sure others would also.
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  #130  
Old 02-28-2013, 8:36 AM
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Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
I've highlighted part of the above. In reference:
Which cases?
Do you have any involvement in any of these cases? Litigation, research for the litigator, anything like that?
I'd like to see your forecast regarding these cases, and I'm sure others would also.
Seconded.
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  #131  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:12 AM
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Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
I've highlighted part of the above. In reference:
Which cases?
Do you have any involvement in any of these cases? Litigation, research for the litigator, anything like that?
I'd like to see your forecast regarding these cases, and I'm sure others would also.
I've posted them several times. One is an CGF case. As these are high-profile and important active cases there are limits on what I will say on a public forum.
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  #132  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Tincon View Post
I've posted them several times. One is an CGF case. As these are high-profile and important active cases there are limits on what I will say on a public forum.
Let's be clear, and get it all together.
What are the cases?
Do you have any involvement?
What is your forecast?
Are you involved and important enough that something you say here might (truly) adversely affect the RKBA.
Here is your chance to show that you are the best and the brightest.
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  #133  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:32 AM
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Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
Let's be clear, and get it all together.
What are the cases?
Do you have any involvement?
What is your forecast?
Are you involved and important enough that something you say here might (truly) adversely affect the RKBA.
Here is your chance to show that you are the best and the brightest.
There seems to be a double standard on thread-crapping among some people. None of this is related to Teixeira. In particular I don't know why you would need to know about my personal involvement.

I will however consider adding a separate thread with the current major cases, and my opinion of the prospects and procedural outcomes for each. That seems worthwhile. There will be limits however, not because I'm "important" but because the other side can read these forums just as you can, and I don't want to point out a weakness or line of argument that they missed.
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  #134  
Old 02-28-2013, 1:13 PM
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Careful rootuser, people might start to think you have a personal vendetta.
Don't know any of these people. Only sad to see a business shut down, even if it was their own risk they took and lost.

If I am to believe post #102 at face value then it would seem the CGFs lawyers were just throwing that hail mary pass to see what would happen. Trying to help with no guarantees. Seems on the up and up to me. It was a weak arguement, everyone involved seems to have understood that, and the business wanted to take the shot. Being a good business owner sometimes means taking a loss at the right time, and maybe they just didn't want to lose on principal which is always a bad reason to fight as a business. Still feel bad for those guys none the less.
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  #135  
Old 02-28-2013, 8:37 PM
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Don't know any of these people. Only sad to see a business shut down, even if it was their own risk they took and lost.

If I am to believe post #102 at face value then it would seem the CGFs lawyers were just throwing that hail mary pass to see what would happen. Trying to help with no guarantees. Seems on the up and up to me. It was a weak arguement, everyone involved seems to have understood that, and the business wanted to take the shot. Being a good business owner sometimes means taking a loss at the right time, and maybe they just didn't want to lose on principal which is always a bad reason to fight as a business. Still feel bad for those guys none the less.
The business never got off the ground.

Really, read the complaint. It's interesting.

That 500 feet? It measures from a back corner of the building that doesn't have an exit, over a concertina fence, up a 30 foot concrete wall, across 8 lanes of 880 freeway, down a 30 foot wall, across a busy thoroughfare, a canal and two other fences to the front door of the house.

The plaintiffs were fully informed.
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  #136  
Old 02-28-2013, 8:38 PM
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The business never got off the ground.

Really, read the complaint. It's interesting.

That 500 feet? It measures from a back corner of the building that doesn't have an exit, over a concertina fence, up a 30 foot concrete wall, across 8 lanes of 880 freeway, down a 30 foot wall, across a busy thoroughfare, a canal and two other fences to the front door of the house.

The plaintiffs were fully informed.
If you knew all this, CGF wasted donors money

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  #137  
Old 02-28-2013, 8:59 PM
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The business never got off the ground.

Really, read the complaint. It's interesting.

That 500 feet? It measures from a back corner of the building that doesn't have an exit, over a concertina fence, up a 30 foot concrete wall, across 8 lanes of 880 freeway, down a 30 foot wall, across a busy thoroughfare, a canal and two other fences to the front door of the house.

The plaintiffs were fully informed.
Fences, canals, and concrete walls don't matter when it comes to zoning. Neither does 8 lanes of freeway. The homeowners association retained that right in a variance hearing. What matters is 500ft. You can't go into court and fight for the 2A, the 14th, and equal protection based on fences, freeways, canals and corners of buildings.
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  #138  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:04 PM
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<sigh>

Read the pleading....

Or, seriously, turn your anger at Brandon toward something positive. Start your own organization - or volunteer for another. It's starting to get a little ridiculous. And petty.
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  #139  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:08 PM
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Part of the issue is no definition of how to measure the properties.
The plaintiffs hired a county approved surveyor who measured front door to front door. The distance was >500'.
The HOA measured closest corner to closest corner. The distance is <500'
This property is in unincorporated Alameda county. most adjoining cities will not permit a gun store to open. There aren't many, if any properties that are 500' from a residence in the unincorporated areas. All existing store sites have been 'grandfathered'.
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  #140  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:12 PM
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Fences, canals, and concrete walls don't matter when it comes to zoning. Neither does 8 lanes of freeway. The homeowners association retained that right in a variance hearing. What matters is 500ft. You can't go into court and fight for the 2A, the 14th, and equal protection based on fences, freeways, canals and corners of buildings.
First, take a look at the map above.

So, a city government can say that no church can be within 500 feet of a residence? How about 1000 feet? How about restricting the number of churches in a city? Or how close they can be together?

None of those restrictions impact the core of the right, no?

But wait, if there's one church, your right isn't impacted - you can always go there.... unless you're a Jew, or a Lutheran or a Jehovahs Witness....

Still not impacting the core of the right?

But gun stores aren't like churches. You can buy any gun at a gun store.... But does Big 5 carry handguns? And don't Heller and McDonald point to the ownership of handguns as the core of the right?

So, please tell me how you would have avoided "wasting donors' money"?

Really, I'd be thrilled to know what percentage of your opposition to this case is because YOU think it could have been done better and what percentage is butt-hurt about how you feel you were treated by Brandon?
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  #141  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:20 PM
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First, take a look at the map above.

So, a city government can say that no church can be within 500 feet of a residence? How about 1000 feet? How about restricting the number of churches in a city? Or how close they can be together?

None of those restrictions impact the core of the right, no?

But wait, if there's one church, your right isn't impacted - you can always go there.... unless you're a Jew, or a Lutheran or a Jehovahs Witness....

Still not impacting the core of the right?

But gun stores aren't like churches. You can buy any gun at a gun store.... But does Big 5 carry handguns? And don't Heller and McDonald point to the ownership of handguns as the core of the right?

So, please tell me how you would have avoided "wasting donors' money"?

Really, I'd be thrilled to know what percentage of your opposition to this case is because YOU think it could have been done better and what percentage is butt-hurt about how you feel you were treated by Brandon?
Bottom Line! the zoning ordinance was the zoning ordinance. I don't care about churches. The zoning was about gun stores.

Fight the ordinance first then go after the 2A, 14th and equal protection.
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  #142  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:22 PM
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So, a city government can say that no church can be within 500 feet of a residence?
Speaking of churches and zoning.


http://sanleandro.patch.com/articles...to-settle-suit
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  #143  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:22 PM
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Part of the issue is no definition of how to measure the properties.
The plaintiffs hired a county approved surveyor who measured front door to front door. The distance was >500'.
The HOA measured closest corner to closest corner. The distance is <500'
This property is in unincorporated Alameda county. most adjoining cities will not permit a gun store to open. There aren't many, if any properties that are 500' from a residence in the unincorporated areas. All existing store sites have been 'grandfathered'.
No they didn't! they measured themselves and then the county approved entity said that the measurements didn't follow county zoning laws
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Old 02-28-2013, 9:25 PM
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Bottom Line! the zoning ordinance was the zoning ordinance. I don't care about churches. The zoning was about gun stores.

Fight the ordinance first then go after the 2A, 14th and equal protection.

Why should the 1st be more protected then the 2nd?

The goal was to get this shop opened.
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  #145  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:26 PM
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I have donated to CGF in the past,and will do so again. I do not resent the efforts in this case.

JD, thanks for making the comparison to churches, etc. Point well made.
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  #146  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:27 PM
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Why should the 1st be more protected then the 2nd?

The goal was to get this shop opened.
It shouldn't be! Thats the way the 2nd gets treated though and CGF should know this.

Its sucks but the 2A needs to go to court with a different standard to win "at this time"
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  #147  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:29 PM
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It shouldn't be! Thats the way the 2nd gets treated though and CGF should know this.

Its sucks but the 2A needs to go to court with a different standard to win "at this time"
Uh...no.

Expand your mind.
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  #148  
Old 02-28-2013, 9:30 PM
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Uh...no.
UH... yes! Why do you think all the courts in the nation bring up "levels of scrutiny"?
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Old 02-28-2013, 9:33 PM
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JD, you can stick to your convictions and thats cool! The courts have not been playing by your convictions though. Thats why CGF has been losing at the pace of 0-11.

If the Niners were 0-11 it would make me sick. I still root for them though. Maybe this years draft of super stars will help though

No! I am not in the draft. I'm not qualified, but neither are some of the board members posting an 0-11 record

Last edited by taperxz; 02-28-2013 at 9:35 PM..
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Old 02-28-2013, 9:40 PM
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No they didn't! they measured themselves and then the county approved entity said that the measurements didn't follow county zoning laws
On what basis do you suggest the business owners 'measured themselves'? The order says
Quote:
21. As part of their preliminary preparations, Teixeira, Nobriga, and Gamaza obtained a survey which 4 measured from the front door of their property to the front door of the nearest residential properties and 5 found that the distance was over 500 feet. Id. 26-27.
on page 2. What other information are you using?
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Old 02-28-2013, 9:43 PM
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24 hours later this is going as planned, except I thought this would be locked.
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Old 02-28-2013, 9:49 PM
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On what basis do you suggest the business owners 'measured themselves'? The order says on page 2. What other information are you using?
They obtained a private survey (they are all county approved) and then West County Board of Zoning Adjustments, re surveyed at county standards.
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Old 02-28-2013, 9:52 PM
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Part of the issue is no definition of how to measure the properties.
The plaintiffs hired a county approved surveyor who measured front door to front door. The distance was >500'.
The HOA measured closest corner to closest corner. The distance is <500'
This property is in unincorporated Alameda county. most adjoining cities will not permit a gun store to open. There aren't many, if any properties that are 500' from a residence in the unincorporated areas. All existing store sites have been 'grandfathered'.
this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
On what basis do you suggest the business owners 'measured themselves'? The order says on page 2. What other information are you using?
and this.

taperxz, if you're going to argue a point, at least get the facts right.
better yet, do something useful with your time instead of continuing to post whiny anti-CGF rants. its getting tiresome.
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Old 02-28-2013, 9:55 PM
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Minutes of the Variance Hearing.
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Old 02-28-2013, 9:56 PM
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It should be noted that West County Board of Zoning Adjustments were willing to grant the variance even after measurements.

Again, the problem with variance is it is subject to a variance hearing and the board of supervisors denied the variance.

As JDBerger noted, this all happened prior to CGF involvement.
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Old 02-28-2013, 9:56 PM
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Originally Posted by eville View Post
Why should the 1st be more protected then the 2nd?

The goal was to get this shop opened.

From a planning perspective it isn't. 1A biz are definitely regulated through zoning.

Ask yourself why in some communities you do not see many, if any at all, Strip Clubs or Adult Book stores.

The citites just need to make space for them and ensure they are not excluded them in totality. If the area they are allowed in by zoning are filled with other businesses or the landowner wont lease to them, then the City isn't violating anything.

If the 1A biz is a able to lease within those areas then the City will have to allow but they can impose conditions of approval if it is not allowed by right. They can also deny but have to make findings during the quasi judicial hearing.

The City has broad powers when it comes to zoning and it is often a tangled maze to establish an enterprise if the agency has no incentive to be business friendly for your endeavor. Add politics and community opposition to the equation, it can be even tougher.

FWIW, If I were establishing a gun shop, I would hire a planning consultant, the retired planning director type, that could guide me through the maze. I would do community outreach so I would know what I am up against before the hearing or subsequent appeal. Not all property sites are created equal. YMMV.
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Old 02-28-2013, 9:57 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
They obtained a private survey (they are all county approved) and then West County Board of Zoning Adjustments, re surveyed at county standards.

They hired a surveyor who has a contract with the county. Read the ordinance. It does not clearly state how to measure the distance. The surveyor stated that entrance point to entrance point is reasonable.

We're talking about a **** hair here being the difference.

you should spend your time finding an organization to support rather then spending your time complaining about one you don't believe in.

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Old 02-28-2013, 9:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eville View Post
They hired a surveyor who has a contract with the county. Read the ordinance. It does not clearly state how to measure the distance. The surveyor stated that entrance point to entrance point is reasonable.

We're talking about a **** hair here being the difference.

you should spend your time finding an organization to support rather then spending your time complaining about one you don't believe in.

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It doesn't matter if its a nats arese. The county used it against them because it was a gun store.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexDD View Post
From a planning perspective it isn't. 1A biz are definitely regulated through zoning.

Ask yourself why in some communities you do not see many, if any at all, Strip Clubs or Adult Book stores.

The citites just need to make space for them and ensure they are not excluded them in totality. If the area they are allowed in by zoning are filled with other businesses or the landowner wont lease to them, then the City isn't violating anything.

If the 1A biz is a able to lease within those areas then the City will have to allow but they can impose conditions of approval if it is not allowed by right. They can also deny but have to make findings during the quasi judicial hearing.

The City has broad powers when it comes to zoning and it is often a tangled maze to establish an enterprise if the agency has no incentive to be business friendly for your endeavor. Add politics and community opposition to the equation, it can be even tougher.

FWIW, If I were establishing a gun shop, I would hire a planning consultant, the retired planning director type, that could guide me through the maze. I would do community outreach so I would know what I am up against before the hearing or subsequent appeal. Not all property sites are created equal. YMMV.
Good point and pragmatic advice. I would probably proceed in the same fashion. It might also be worth considering, from a PR perspective, how these communities might feel about having a gun store forced on them. Especially when a questionable suit like this is filed to enforce it.

I know how I would feel about and adult book store doing it. While I don't support those, I respect the rights of people to operate them, but I don't want one on my doorstep. I might feel a bit bullied if someone filed a federal lawsuit to try and force the issue after proper zoning procedures had been followed. As if they felt flexing their rights were more important than the ones I have in my property. Particularly if there were other reasonable options/places for them to open a store.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
They obtained a private survey (they are all county approved) and then West County Board of Zoning Adjustments, re surveyed at county standards.
Surveyors are licensed by BORPELS.

Not all surveys are "county approved". On fact, beyond Records of Survey and Parcel/Subdivision Maps very little is signed off by the County Surveyor.

Counties do not "approve" surveyors, they are licensed by the State.

Survey standards are set by BORPELS, not the county.

Why does the County Zoning Ordinance provide for variances?

Where do you get your facts?
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