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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 05-13-2018, 5:18 PM
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Default More Issues for School District in Parkland Shooting

This was in the Orlando Sentinel...

School district shuts down information after Stoneman Douglas shooting

Quote:
he Broward school district’s repeated, emphatic — and it turns out, false — statements that Nikolas Cruz had not been in a controversial disciplinary program fit a pattern of an institution on the defensive and under siege.

Facing significant legal and political exposure over the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, the district has tried to keep information from the public and put out untrue and misleading statements, frustrating parents who say this is the time for maximum transparency.

The district is fighting in court against the release of school surveillance video. It flatly refused to issue any records regarding the shooting to the news media, in a possible violation of the state’s open-records law. Superintendent Robert Runcie has blocked critics, including parents, from his Twitter account. More than two months after the shooting, a Broward Sheriff’s detective told a state commission on school safety that he was still waiting for the district to provide all of Cruz’s disciplinary records.

The worst came last week, when Runcie acknowledged that his forceful denials that Cruz had been involved in the Promise program, which is intended to provide an alternative to the arrest of students for minor offenses, were wrong. The district had repeatedly dismissed as “fake news” suggestions that Cruz was in the program...

Questions about the Promise program had been a source of frustration for district officials, as well as students and parents. Many felt that the program had been unfairly seized upon as a distraction by conservative opponents of gun control, who preferred to focus on blundering by the district and the sheriff’s office....
There was some, limited, information which came out immediately after the Parkland shooting that the Broward County School District had a very liberal bent and some 'interesting' programs which may have contributed to the problem(s) in terms of not dealing with Cruz sooner. That information was quickly buried by the media and the Internet; particularly as it was sourced from non-mainstream reports and pushed by 'conspiracy theorist' websites.

People are pushing and officials are continuing to drag their heels. Why is it important? Because it provides some context for the select group of Parkland kids the anti-civil rights network is using and it hints at Progressive programs/policies contributing much more to the tragedy than the availability of guns to those under the age of 21.
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Old 05-13-2018, 5:38 PM
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Why aren't the parents picketing at the school entrance?
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Old 05-13-2018, 5:41 PM
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why isn't this information on social media and elsewhere. We need to know about it and i am grateful for someone posting it but that is like preaching to the preacher. It needs to be out in the open on the internet and questions need to be raised as to why these programs even exist if they are creating dangers to others?
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Old 05-13-2018, 5:42 PM
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Those deaths were caused by social justice posturing

[youtube] Florida School Shooting Story Changes Again | Broward County, Nikolas Cruz and The Truth (Molyneux)
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Old 05-13-2018, 5:45 PM
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why isn't this information on social media and elsewhere. We need to know about it and i am grateful for someone posting it but that is like preaching to the preacher. It needs to be out in the open on the internet and questions need to be raised as to why these programs even exist if they are creating dangers to others?
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Old 05-13-2018, 5:45 PM
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why isn't this information on social media and elsewhere. We need to know about it and i am grateful for someone posting it but that is like preaching to the preacher. It needs to be out in the open on the internet and questions need to be raised as to why these programs even exist if they are creating dangers to others?
Maybe because many of us shrink from engagement in social media. Raise your hand if you battle for 2A rights on Twitter? Facebook? Google+?
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Old 05-13-2018, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
This was in the Orlando Sentinel...

School district shuts down information after Stoneman Douglas shooting



There was some, limited, information which came out immediately after the Parkland shooting that the Broward County School District had a very liberal bent and some 'interesting' programs which may have contributed to the problem(s) in terms of not dealing with Cruz sooner. That information was quickly buried by the media and the Internet; particularly as it was sourced from non-mainstream reports and pushed by 'conspiracy theorist' websites.

People are pushing and officials are continuing to drag their heels. Why is it important? Because it provides some context for the select group of Parkland kids the anti-civil rights network is using and it hints at Progressive programs/policies contributing much more to the tragedy than the availability of guns to those under the age of 21.
Tread carefully is how I look at it.

If the policy contributed to a crazy murderer going on a rampage, so did the gun. They are inexorably linked if we make those kinds of claims.

The dude was crazy, could have been stopped and wasn't. That's the bottom line. Any "program" did not make him crazy or incentivize him to murder any more than then gun did.
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Old 05-13-2018, 9:09 PM
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If the policy contributed to a crazy murderer going on a rampage, so did the gun.
Addressing them individually leads to disparate outcomes:

1) Ban Guns:
Crazy person has no access to guns. Buy a knife, rents a truck, or builds explosives. Still mass carnage
2) Identify, treat, and monitor dangerous individuals:
Murderous psychopath removed from society until no longer a danger. Significantly reduced mass carnage
One of these approaches strikes at the root of the problem. The other merely patches over the deaths with emotions and knee-jerk reactions. I know my preference.
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Old 05-13-2018, 9:38 PM
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i do not use media outlets like the one's mentioned. I do argue the second amendment in person but i feel far better people than I can argue the cause on mass media. besides i would have to spend time getting accounts and worrying about hacking.
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Old 05-13-2018, 9:49 PM
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Tread carefully is how I look at it.

If the policy contributed to a crazy murderer going on a rampage, so did the gun. They are inexorably linked if we make those kinds of claims.

The dude was crazy, could have been stopped and wasn't. That's the bottom line. Any "program" did not make him crazy or incentivize him to murder any more than then gun did.
Not inexorably.

I don't see where anyone is saying 'the program' made him crazy or provided him incentive to murder. I do see where they are saying the 'program' prevented/precluded opportunities to deal with him before he acquired the firearms or, at least, before he used the firearms and became a problem. Which is likely part of why we are seeing resistance to releasing the information. (I can also see a case being made for 'privacy' in relation to other students who may have committed infractions, but aren't budding 'criminals' or 'psycho-/socio-paths; thus, limiting the amount of data released to Cruz.) The potential use of the information in formulating a lawsuit or as part of a lawsuit is almost a given.

Had he been stopped, either through the 39 previous contacts or actions by the school district which were precluded by the program, he likely wouldn't have had access to the gun. At least not legally. Thus, the statement that these types of programs/policies contribute much more to the tragedy than the availability of guns to those under the age of 21.

Now, if you want to argue that any kind of access to any kind of firearm is a potential problem waiting to happen, be my guest. If you want to argue that programs which don't allow officials to deal with clearly emergent problems aren't an issue because the 'program' doesn't make one 'crazy,' then, again, be my guest. But, I'd suggest a different thread as the predictable responses on this site are likely to be multiple and loquacious, not to mention tangential to the purpose of this thread.

As you said, I'd tread carefully with that.

If you want to discuss how to prevent access to firearms by individuals who shouldn't have such access, there are plenty of threads where people are doing exactly that and I'm sure your contributions would be welcome. If you want to discuss the Promise Program's stated goals vs. actual consequences vis a vis 'creating holes' in a system ostensibly intended to identify, monitor, and curtail potential problems, then that deserves a thread of its own.
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Old 05-13-2018, 9:52 PM
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i do not use media outlets like the one's mentioned. I do argue the second amendment in person but i feel far better people than I can argue the cause on mass media. besides i would have to spend time getting accounts and worrying about hacking.
You only need cable/satellite service to watch Fox News.

You don't need an account to watch YouTube videos.

You're question was...

Quote:
Originally Posted by big red
why isn't this information on social media and elsewhere.
We're simply demonstrating that it HAS been 'out there,' just not in the mainstream media per se.
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  #12  
Old 05-13-2018, 10:24 PM
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Maybe because many of us shrink from engagement in social media. Raise your hand if you battle for 2A rights on Twitter? Facebook? Google+?
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I have to wait until all the info is in before I make a statement. Obviously the family dogs had it coming.... other than that, waiting on more info.
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Old 05-13-2018, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
Addressing them individually leads to disparate outcomes:

1) Ban Guns:
Crazy person has no access to guns. Buy a knife, rents a truck, or builds explosives. Still mass carnage
2) Identify, treat, and monitor dangerous individuals:
Murderous psychopath removed from society until no longer a danger. Significantly reduced mass carnage
One of these approaches strikes at the root of the problem. The other merely patches over the deaths with emotions and knee-jerk reactions. I know my preference.
I agree with you, but now you see, we're already falling into the trap.

While you and I agree that the root of the problem is crazy people, I think both sides agree that you cannot stop all of the crazy people. So treating some "program" or "policy" as the problem is an impossible hill to overcome, so rather than doing the impossible, why not disarm everyone?

It's a dangerous blame game when we stop holding individuals accountable and blame "society" for their ills. The left blames the "Gun culture" or in other words, gun society, for the shooting.

The blame is the shooter's, not society, and not some program. It is not the access to guns, or the guns themselves, or the phases of the moon.

The left agrees with you, that the crazy people will still get a truck and or a knife. The left also wants to make it more difficult for the shooter to get guns because we all agree, you can't stop crazy.

And now we go round in circles, all while our rights are being washed away.
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Old 05-13-2018, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
Not inexorably.

I don't see where anyone is saying 'the program' made him crazy or provided him incentive to murder. I do see where they are saying the 'program' prevented/precluded opportunities to deal with him before he acquired the firearms or, at least, before he used the firearms and became a problem. Which is likely part of why we are seeing resistance to releasing the information. (I can also see a case being made for 'privacy' in relation to other students who may have committed infractions, but aren't budding 'criminals' or 'psycho-/socio-paths; thus, limiting the amount of data released to Cruz.) The potential use of the information in formulating a lawsuit or as part of a lawsuit is almost a given.

Had he been stopped, either through the 39 previous contacts or actions by the school district which were precluded by the program, he likely wouldn't have had access to the gun. At least not legally. Thus, the statement that these types of programs/policies contribute much more to the tragedy than the availability of guns to those under the age of 21.

Now, if you want to argue that any kind of access to any kind of firearm is a potential problem waiting to happen, be my guest. If you want to argue that programs which don't allow officials to deal with clearly emergent problems aren't an issue because the 'program' doesn't make one 'crazy,' then, again, be my guest. But, I'd suggest a different thread as the predictable responses on this site are likely to be multiple and loquacious, not to mention tangential to the purpose of this thread.

As you said, I'd tread carefully with that.

If you want to discuss how to prevent access to firearms by individuals who shouldn't have such access, there are plenty of threads where people are doing exactly that and I'm sure your contributions would be welcome. If you want to discuss the Promise Program's stated goals vs. actual consequences vis a vis 'creating holes' in a system ostensibly intended to identify, monitor, and curtail potential problems, then that deserves a thread of its own.
Inexorably may be too strong of a choice of words, point taken.

As you mentioned originally, that it hints at Progressive programs/policies contributing much more to the tragedy than the availability of guns to those under the age of 21, this is where I get worried. If we focus on individuals who shouldn't have guns getting access to them, we have to be careful where that leads us, but worth exploring.

It seems maybe that the law enforcement failed (as they admit more or less) and they should have been sure he couldn't get a gun. The "Promise" program doesn't seem to cover up or really clean-up all the problems he had with law enforcement outside of school if he was part of it or not.

Perhaps the program didn't help at all and actually hindered? But would a 40th or 41st contact have been the straw that broke the camel's back and then law enforcement would have flagged him? I honestly don't know.

Seems to me the promise program is one of those things that looks good on paper, and probably does save a kid who did something stupid from having it haunt him/her, but I don't know that the promise program hindered law enforcement in some way, in this case. They had ample time to flag him and didn't, promise program or not I think. However, maybe the program could cover up a potential problem that didn't have 39 other contacts? Perhaps so.

The Promise program supposedly focusses on "non-violent" offenses and teaching social coping and skills. But then they mention that fighting (which is violent IMHO) is covered under the program. I really don't know the point of it. Getting rid of promise or keeping it really doesn't keep the guns out of this particular shooter's hands IMHO but I can certainly see where it might cause issues in the future.
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Old 05-13-2018, 11:35 PM
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...If we focus on individuals who shouldn't have guns getting access to them, we have to be careful where that leads us, but worth exploring.
Inevitably, this is the path we're already headed down with Scalia's compromise language...

Quote:
The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.
Fortunately or unfortunately, it is a much, much more complex issue than many would have you believe. Likewise, Scalia did not say that such prohibitions could or should be expanded; something the anti-civil rights side would have you believe he 'meant.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by rootuser
But would a 40th or 41st contact have been the straw that broke the camel's back and then law enforcement would have flagged him? I honestly don't know.
I don't see where they are complaining about the number of contacts. My sense is that they want to know about what issues might have or should have led to a contact which may have been prevented by the program. Could that cause have created circumstances which would have precluded his legal acquisition of firearms or given cause to confiscate those firearms? As you say, for now, we have no way to know. Which is why people want to see the information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rootuser
Seems to me the promise program is one of those things that looks good on paper, and probably does save a kid who did something stupid from having it haunt him/her, but I don't know that the promise program hindered law enforcement in some way, in this case.
I think, in some ways, the program has potential to do good things. Not everyone who commits an 'infraction' is a budding criminal or mass murderer. In fact, many 'marginal youths' are not 'bad' kids, just in a bad set of circumstances that, given half a chance, they would willingly work their way out of. Some of them even grow up to be... 'special people' on the side of the Greater Good.

Ben Carson, in his role as a neurosurgeon, is just one example of a kid headed for trouble who became something... better. In his case, it was the initial intercession of his Mother; but, today, schools often, rightly or wrongly, fill that role.

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Originally Posted by rootuser
Getting rid of promise or keeping it really doesn't keep the guns out of this particular shooter's hands IMHO but I can certainly see where it might cause issues in the future.
That's what people are trying to figure out and why they want the information. It's why I can see the release of information being limited to Cruz. It's also why, if something is found which could have been used, I can see the 'fear' of a lawsuit.
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Old 05-13-2018, 11:58 PM
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Tread carefully is how I look at it.

If the policy contributed to a crazy murderer going on a rampage, so did the gun. They are inexorably linked if we make those kinds of claims.

The dude was crazy, could have been stopped and wasn't. That's the bottom line. Any "program" did not make him crazy or incentivize him to murder any more than then gun did.
It may not have made or incentivized him to murder but a case could be argued that it allowed or did not prevent him. Politics of education and gun control have walked all over the killing of those kids.
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Old 05-14-2018, 2:25 AM
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so rather than doing the impossible, why not disarm everyone?
.... you believe disarming everybody is even remotely possible? I don't know what kind of drugs you're on, but keep them far away from me.

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Originally Posted by rootuser View Post
It's a dangerous blame game when we stop holding individuals accountable and blame "society" for their ills.
[...]
The blame is the shooter's, not society, and not some program.
Are we even in the same conversation? I absolutely CAN blame a program. More specifically, the people who follow the diktats of said program. If there were a "program" (hyperbolically, for argument sake) to ignore black people who commit murder, I can blame the people adhering to the program's diktats for allowing a murderer to roam society because any reasonable person should understand the further risk to life. You're insane if you think the only person to blame in that instance is the murderer.

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The left agrees with you, that the crazy people will still get a truck and or a knife. The left also wants to make it more difficult for the shooter to get guns because we all agree, you can't stop crazy.
No, we CAN stop crazy. It's called a 5150. That's how it starts. If the person is deemed an actual threat, you remove them from society until they have been cured. If someone is holding a knife screaming they want to kill people in the middle of a town while mutilating animals, you don't just ignore it. If you do, I absolutely CAN blame you and will.

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And now we go round in circles, all while our rights are being washed away.
You're the only one going in circles. It's plain as day to everyone else.
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Old 05-14-2018, 8:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rootuser View Post
Tread carefully is how I look at it.

If the policy contributed to a crazy murderer going on a rampage, so did the gun. They are inexorably linked if we make those kinds of claims.

The dude was crazy, could have been stopped and wasn't. That's the bottom line. Any "program" did not make him crazy or incentivize him to murder any more than then gun did.
I think the point of blaming the Obama/runcie Promise program is that this murdering scum coward and possibly others like him are NOT in any LEO data base!
This murderer was able to pass a background check. Had the school called police for this characters crimes. He would have been denied a legal gun purchase and could have been charged for trying to buy a gun!

The fact this PROMISE program is hidden in plain sight mean it will continue.

I read this article on Drudge Report this morning;
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/br...510-story.html
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Old 05-14-2018, 9:44 AM
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They have learned from the Vegas shooting.
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:28 AM
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Why aren't the parents picketing at the school entrance?


Confirmation bias: people look up / research / read what supports their position. Coupled with a slanted media that only confirms their thoughts....facts get thrown aside.
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Old 05-14-2018, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
.... you believe disarming everybody is even remotely possible? I don't know what kind of drugs you're on, but keep them far away from me.



Are we even in the same conversation? I absolutely CAN blame a program. More specifically, the people who follow the diktats of said program. If there were a "program" (hyperbolically, for argument sake) to ignore black people who commit murder, I can blame the people adhering to the program's diktats for allowing a murderer to roam society because any reasonable person should understand the further risk to life. You're insane if you think the only person to blame in that instance is the murderer.


No, we CAN stop crazy. It's called a 5150. That's how it starts. If the person is deemed an actual threat, you remove them from society until they have been cured. If someone is holding a knife screaming they want to kill people in the middle of a town while mutilating animals, you don't just ignore it. If you do, I absolutely CAN blame you and will.


You're the only one going in circles. It's plain as day to everyone else.
Obviously I don't think we could disarm everyone, nor do I think we should. I am playing devil's advocate obviously.

We can't stop crazy realistically entirely. Look at Las Vegas. We still have NO clue why he did what he did. Where was the 5150 that the police missed? Where was the "program" that was at fault?

IF we assume you can stop crazy, then that means some one is to blame other than the shooter for Las Vegas, or Virginia Tech, or wherever.

Seems to me, in the Florida case, the program was this minor piece if anything (we still aren't sure yet because no one has the records apparently) and the police ignored dozens of contacts outside of the program.

I'm not going in circles, I'm making sure we aren't too quick to come up with a solution (end the program for example) that then gets thrown back in our face when that fails to stop the next shooting. What that leaves us with is the left being "Correct" and only banning guns will fix the issue, even though we all know that won't fix the problem.

P.S. I agree with you, if some one is a serial killer in training (seemingly like the case was in Florida) he should have been flagged. Why he wasn't doesn't seem to have anything to do with this program and more to do with epic fail by law enforcement.

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Old 05-14-2018, 12:28 PM
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I think the point of blaming the Obama/runcie Promise program is that this murdering scum coward and possibly others like him are NOT in any LEO data base!
This murderer was able to pass a background check. Had the school called police for this characters crimes. He would have been denied a legal gun purchase and could have been charged for trying to buy a gun!

The fact this PROMISE program is hidden in plain sight mean it will continue.

I read this article on Drudge Report this morning;
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/br...510-story.html
Cruz was in the police databases. They contacted him dozens of times.

The police admit to 23 times at the Sheriff's office alone, and CNN reports it's 39 times and it looks like it could be as high as 45 times. CNN produced the records. The Sheriff is lying to cover his own butt.

However my friend, I cannot disagree, this program could become a problem in the future for other cases and should be ended immediately. As you point out, people who should end up in the police database might not as a result of this "feel good" program.

In the Florida case however, the program didn't amount to a hill of beans. The police knew of this guy and did nothing. The program did not go in and edit police records, or stop them from flagging him as they should have. Program or not, the Sheriff screwed the pooch and should be held accountable by the voters.
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Old 05-14-2018, 12:31 PM
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It may not have made or incentivized him to murder but a case could be argued that it allowed or did not prevent him. Politics of education and gun control have walked all over the killing of those kids.
Very good point. Is it the program's duty to do law enforcement work like preventing him? I say it isn't and it should be ended on that basis before it really does end up to blame. Let law enforcement do their job (or in the Florida case, not).
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Old 05-14-2018, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rootuser View Post
Tread carefully is how I look at it.

If the policy contributed to a crazy murderer going on a rampage, so did the gun. They are inexorably linked if we make those kinds of claims.

The dude was crazy, could have been stopped and wasn't. That's the bottom line. Any "program" did not make him crazy or incentivize him to murder any more than then gun did.
Nope. Not even a decent parallel.

The program, and others like it, is SUPPOSED TO DEAL WITH problem kids. The gun has no prevention role, and is in fact an inanimate object. The program was part of what “should have stopped” him, the gun had no such role.

Add to that the fact that these programs are a transparent attempt to keep the kid IN school for simple funding purposes, and it’s pretty clear that money and greed is the reason this wasn’t dealt with.
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Old 05-14-2018, 7:32 PM
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Nope. Not even a decent parallel.

The program, and others like it, is SUPPOSED TO DEAL WITH problem kids. The gun has no prevention role, and is in fact an inanimate object. The program was part of what “should have stopped” him, the gun had no such role.

Add to that the fact that these programs are a transparent attempt to keep the kid IN school for simple funding purposes, and it’s pretty clear that money and greed is the reason this wasn’t dealt with.
AND we can argue logic until the cows come home (which I agree with yours obviously), but we are dealing with massive gun control efforts across the country now as a result and more to come most likely by people blaming the gun. Yes, you're right, they aren't parallel, but has that stopped any gun control efforts? Nope.

What I am trying to illustrate is that we shouldn't give the left more cannon fodder by us blaming this program, in this instance, as the "problem" and then when the next one happens in a school that doesn't have the program that then suddenly they are now emboldened even further because our "logic" was flawed again.

I agree with you that the funding issue is a big problem. They have an incentive to keep them in school beyond the well-being of the student or the student-body which will lead to bad things IMHO.

I kind of see 39 contacts, plus or minus, with police, some involving violence, as more than enough and the program didn't matter. If they were covering it up or not as part of this misguided program, the police failed, in an epic way. The program is red herring.
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Old 05-14-2018, 7:50 PM
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i find it interesting when anti-gun supporters find information can be twisted to serve their purpose to ban guns they jump on it but when more information comes to light and begins to expose their lies they shut down the information and refuse to release it while their politicians and public officials use their legal tricks to hide the truth from us. but it seems the police failures are at the core of every massacre to date. the diversion programs are about funneling money to political pets for babysitting programs that are not supposed to treat kids or produce results but warehouse violent kids until they can be shuffled off someplace else.
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Old 05-15-2018, 3:12 PM
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The program is red herring.
Actually, the Parkland kids being pushed (including the legislative efforts to allow them to graduate without taking the standard tests, etc.), this particular program, the Sheriff's response to the shooting and law enforcement's 'failure' regarding the 39 contacts, might all be pointing to other issues for Broward County as a whole...

Broward elections supervisor illegally destroyed ballots in Wasserman Schultz race, judge rules

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The Broward County Supervisor of Elections Office violated state and federal laws by destroying ballots from a 2016 Congressional race too soon — and while the ballots were the subject of a lawsuit against the office, a judge has ruled...
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Old 05-15-2018, 3:56 PM
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Actually, the Parkland kids being pushed (including the legislative efforts to allow them to graduate without taking the standard tests, etc.), this particular program, the Sheriff's response to the shooting and law enforcement's 'failure' regarding the 39 contacts, might all be pointing to other issues for Broward County as a whole...

Broward elections supervisor illegally destroyed ballots in Wasserman Schultz race, judge rules
Destruction of ballots is common practice.... Signing that there are no lawsuits or reason to hold on to the ballots and then blaming your staff when that isn't true is criminal IMHO.

I think maybe what you are getting to is there is something really rotten in Broward County??? and I absolutely agree with you. These threads have provided ample evidence that something stinks to high heaven.

This lady who blamed her staff is part of an ongoing lack of personal responsibility. As a leader, the buck stops on your desk. It is HER fault the ballots were destroyed prematurely and she must be held to account. She won't be of course.
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Old 05-15-2018, 4:40 PM
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Actually, the Parkland kids being pushed (including the legislative efforts to allow them to graduate without taking the standard tests, etc.), this particular program, the Sheriff's response to the shooting and law enforcement's 'failure' regarding the 39 contacts, might all be pointing to other issues for Broward County as a whole...

Broward elections supervisor illegally destroyed ballots in Wasserman Schultz race, judge rules
And as if to add to your point:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/15...h-pension.html

WTF is wrong with Broward County, for the love of Christ the corruption is unreal.
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Old 05-15-2018, 5:35 PM
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Destruction of ballots is common practice.... Signing that there are no lawsuits or reason to hold on to the ballots and then blaming your staff when that isn't true is criminal IMHO.
If you actually read the article closely, it's more than simply declaring there was no lawsuit.

Yes. Ballot destruction is common. However, the law says State election ballots must be held for 12 months and Federal election ballots for 22 months.

The request was made in 3/17, approximately 4 months after the election. He took them to court 3 months later; i.e., approximately 7 months after the election. She approved destruction of the ballots in September, 10 months after the election. So, while it is 'common,' she didn't even wait the legal time frame for State ballots, let alone Federal ones.

Now, you can add the issue about a lawsuit pending to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rootuser
I think maybe what you are getting to is there is something really rotten in Broward County??? and I absolutely agree with you. These threads have provided ample evidence that something stinks to high heaven.
That's about the size of it. It partly explains why Wasserman Schultz immediately met with some of the Parkland students, why some of the parents had the connections they did, etc. It's exactly what I was referring to in the OP...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia
There was some, limited, information which came out immediately after the Parkland shooting that the Broward County School District had a very liberal bent and some 'interesting' programs which may have contributed to the problem(s) in terms of not dealing with Cruz sooner. That information was quickly buried by the media and the Internet; particularly as it was sourced from non-mainstream reports and pushed by 'conspiracy theorist' websites.
I didn't use it at the time in the Parkland students thread because Breitbart isn't 'universally' considered acceptable. But, this was posted in April...

Report: Broward County Grew Increasingly Unsafe as Obama-Era Discipline Policies Protected Minority Students

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A new investigation reveals that while the Broward County schools superintendent and school board are touting fewer arrests of minority students, the most recent state data actually shows the district has the highest rate of weapons-related incidents in South Florida...

“Broward County now has the highest percentage of ‘the most serious, violent [and] chronic’ juvenile offenders in Florida, according to the county’s chief juvenile probation officer,” Sperry writes. “Since 2015, at least three other pupils have brought loaded firearms into schools and threatened to go on shooting sprees.”...

Parents, however, have complained about a lack of responsiveness from the superintendent and school board to their concerns about school safety over recent years. One 19-year-old Broward online education student, Kenneth Preston, presented research last week at a school board meeting alleging that of $104,325,821 designated for school safety as part of the Broward Schools 2014 Bond Appropriation, only $5,584,512 – about 5.3 percent – has been spent since its appropriation...

The district’s PROMISE program was likely one used as a model program for the Obama administration’s national school discipline initiative mapped out in a 2014 Dear Colleague letter. The directive coerced schools into reducing reports of arrests, expulsions, and suspensions of minority students in order to avoid federal investigations and the withdrawal of federal funding...

RCI adds that thousands of Broward students who were arrested “had their records deleted in the system as part of a program to end ‘disproportionate minority contact’ with law enforcement, blindfolding both street cops and school resource officers to the criminal history of potential juvenile threats.”

“[T]he actual police reports are being destroyed,” Broward juvenile prosecutor Maria Schneider stated at a recent Juvenile Justice Circuit Advisory Board meeting...

“We know that when Cruz committed felonies he wasn’t arrested,” Manhattan Institute senior fellow and education policy expert Max Eden tells Breitbart News. “We hear, from a retired School Resource Officer, that the school board and police department verbally instructed SROs to not arrest for certain felonies in addition to PROMISE misdemeanors. It appears Cruz was shielded from felony arrests by a program designed for re-integrating students post felony-conviction.”

Indeed, while Runcie has asserted his PROMISE program is not connected to the shooting because Cruz did not participate in that program, RCI reveals Cruz was enrolled in the Behavior Intervention Program, an initiative that Eden describes as “PROMISE on steroids for felons.”...
If you remember, it was acknowledged that records of those "39 contacts" were missing, sparse, and/or non-existent.

There are several links in that piece you might find interesting. Including...

3/19/18 - Broward County's Reverse Jail-to-School Pipeline

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At the same time the Broward County school system was dismantling the “school-to-prison pipeline” under policies that failed to stop accused shooter Nikolas Cruz, it was building another pipeline, funneling back into regular classrooms thousands of other potentially dangerous students released from local jails, county and school district records reveal...
2/27/18 - Retired Broward deputy speaks out on Scot Peterson, SRO shortage

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...Martinez retired less than a year ago, after 30 years at the Broward Sheriff’s Office and 18 years as a school resource officer...

Martinez said everyone should wait until the investigation is over before they pass judgment, but he added that now is the time to expose other problems — like what he calls a major shortage of school resource officers in Broward County...

Alleged Stoneman Douglas shooter Nikolas Cruz was in and out of trouble at school but never arrested. That’s something that doesn’t surprise Martinez.

When asked whether the county wants to keep the arrest numbers down, Martinez said, “Correct.”

When asked whether county officials are encouraging SROs not to make arrests, the retired officer again said, “Correct.”

Martinez said that removing a dangerous child like Cruz from a school can take up to a year because of all the red tape, and he’s upset that so many of the missed warning signs are now being blamed on the officers...
As I said, some of this was out there, virtually from the beginning. The shooting was 2/14. This is a piece from Breitbart on 2/26...

Broward County Likely ‘Inspiration’ for Obama School Discipline Policy to Report Fewer Arrests, Suspensions

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The Broward County school district’s adoption of a school discipline policy that was praised by the Obama administration for seeking to reduce the reported number of school suspensions, expulsions, and arrests may have played a role in the fact that Nikolas Cruz remained under the radar until his shooting rampage in Parkland, Florida, on February 14...

“Broward County was the first to have the goal of lowering suspensions, lowering expulsions, lowering arrests,” explains Eden. “And, so, they decided to reduce police involvement by not bringing in cops to arrest kids for a whole range of serious offenses, and then, as you would expect, the arrests go down when you stop arresting. That was taken to be a sign of success, based on that metric alone.”...

Nevertheless, as the Washington Post reported, the Florida Department of Children and Families report regarding the investigation into Cruz states that, in 2016, school resource officer Scot Peterson had been approached by investigators, but “refused to share any information … regarding [an] incident that took place with” Cruz...

“If we’re trying to answer the question, ‘How did Nikolas Cruz remain under the radar?’ it certainly seems as though part of that answer is the fact that the radar was shifted and that students like him were supposed to be put under the radar in the first place,” Eden suggests. “The point of the PROMISE program was to not let them know about it.”...
Are you beginning to understand why this isn't necessarily a 'red herring' and why I've stated...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia
...it provides some context for the select group of Parkland kids the anti-civil rights network is using and it hints at Progressive programs/policies contributing much more to the tragedy than the availability of guns to those under the age of 21.
...why it's not about creating 'boogeymen' out of specific students, and why I've been hammering on the 'network' behind taking a small, select group of the Parkland students and using them in the anti-civil rights cause?

There's more going on in Broward County (and Florida with Republicans passing anti-gun legislation, protecting Broward County students in terms of not having to pass standard exams/graduating with fewer hours for the first time since the exams were put in place) as a whole than the public is aware of or that the mainstream media is willing to report. It also explains why the District is reluctant to release the information.

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Old 05-16-2018, 3:27 AM
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Meanwhile disgraced coward cop got a hefty pension.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/br...515-story.html


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Old 05-16-2018, 6:56 AM
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Meanwhile disgraced coward cop got a hefty pension.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/br...515-story.html


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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/30...-peterson.html
""I filed a wrongful death suit against Deputy Peterson today," Pollack tweeted. "I want to expose that coward so bad. Where ever he goes I want people to recognize him and say that's one of the cowards of Broward. The SRO that let those children and teachers die on the 3rd floor!"


I truly hope this suit causes the coward from Broward to be shunned by everyone in that community !
They should take his guns away from him!

The 8 G a month isn't so desirable if he has to shop online for everything!
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Old 05-16-2018, 9:33 AM
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you have a system where offenders are placated and coddled instead of being dealt with. Parents are not being shamed enough for failure to raise their kids properly and parents want to blame a system not designed to take over a nanny role in society. Now that Obama and the democrats system is failing they want to blame guns and not themselves for setting up a network that gave these people every chance to act in violent ways. Parents failed in the basics and the system failed to properly do it's job of educating the young. education is now politics and nothing more.
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Old 05-16-2018, 3:40 PM
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Does anyone think this Parkland shooter and the deaths that resulted was a democrat party plan to further erode gun rights ?

#1 How could this punk avoid any record of bad behavior when cops went out 38 times?

#2 according to reports, the school was to be on the lookout for this scum bringing a backpack on campus. So instead of a backpack he brings an AR rifle!

#3 the resource officer Scot Peterson hid when he heard gunfire which was exactly the same tactic as the chicken**** cops at Columbine. In both cases the murders were free to roam and murder at will while victims bled out!

#4 The entire media and Govt school had the scapegoat labeled within minutes of the murders. Add to this big banks,COSTCO and other democrat entities that still blame the NRA
#5 Not one word of how everyone in that county did not do their jobs or how the Obama/Holder/Runcie PROMISE PROGRAM paid districts to NOT report criminal behavior !
Just saying
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Old 05-16-2018, 5:40 PM
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Does anyone think this Parkland shooter and the deaths that resulted was a democrat party plan to further erode gun rights ?
A deliberate, pre-planned conspiracy? No.

A stage created, at least in part (more likely, in the main), by Left-Wing Progressive policies, which would, sooner or later, have created a situation of some sort? Yes.

A shooting immediately taken advantage of and exploited by the anti-civil rights network? Yes. (Kind of like a politician who keeps legislation in a drawer, waiting for the next, opportune moment to introduce/re-introduce it or ambulance-chasing attorneys or vultures looking for...)

A media entirely unwilling to relay the facts and, instead, 'shape public opinion' by only reporting in a way which advances a specific narrative? Yes.

In short, what you have is a situation much like we're seeing in California in terms of Left-Wing Progressive policies, the situations being created by those policies, and the 'answer' to the situations being created being the exertion of more Left-Wing Progressive control.

Is there more going on in Broward County and in the State of Florida than many, even most, appear to be aware of? I'd say and have said... Yes. But, that takes us back to this...

Quote:
It has been said that for evil men to accomplish their purpose it is only necessary that good men should do nothing.
Whoever actually said it first and the fact that the source of that, specific version was a Prohibition proponent... ahem... doesn't, of necessity, negate the import of the thought.

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Old 05-16-2018, 6:28 PM
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/30...-peterson.html
""I filed a wrongful death suit against Deputy Peterson today," Pollack tweeted. "I want to expose that coward so bad. Where ever he goes I want people to recognize him and say that's one of the cowards of Broward. The SRO that let those children and teachers die on the 3rd floor!"


I truly hope this suit causes the coward from Broward to be shunned by everyone in that community !
They should take his guns away from him!

The 8 G a month isn't so desirable if he has to shop online for everything!
I so agree. This son-of-a-biscuit just moved to the top of my piss on his grave list. He moved beyond even chomo protector, phony tough-guy Joe from Arizona and that other chomo protector Joe who gives a sh*t from Penn State.

I don't think he should qualify for one red cent from that pension. He let those kids die afraid and screaming. I hope he suffers the same fate.
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Old 05-16-2018, 6:56 PM
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Does anyone think this Parkland shooter and the deaths that resulted was a democrat party plan to further erode gun rights ?
I think the Dem plan was primed and ready for a tragedy just like this. No, I don't believe the Dems sent that kid in to kill other kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ja308 View Post
#1 How could this punk avoid any record of bad behavior when cops went out 38 times?
There was a record of incidents. No one did anything about it. That's the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ja308 View Post
#2 according to reports, the school was to be on the lookout for this scum bringing a backpack on campus. So instead of a backpack he brings an AR rifle!
School safety is relative. He just walked right on campus. We don't want our kids to feel like they are in jail while they go to school, but this security was pretty lax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ja308 View Post
#3 the resource officer Scot Peterson hid when he heard gunfire which was exactly the same tactic as the chicken**** cops at Columbine. In both cases the murders were free to roam and murder at will while victims bled out!
Columbine was a bit different. Procedure was to post up outside and wait to go in. Columbine was actually one of the catalysts that changed the thinking of how to handle these things. Now cops don't wait. Mall shootings, Mosque shootings etc, they go right in. The coward who's name I won't mention knew better. Coward vs doing what the book told you was the best thing to do to save lives (as in Columbine) are different IMHO.

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Originally Posted by ja308 View Post
#4 The entire media and Govt school had the scapegoat labeled within minutes of the murders. Add to this big banks,COSTCO and other democrat entities that still blame the NRA
Every shooting uses the same playbook: NRA is the bad guys. It's easy to rinse and repeat. The playbook was already written and will be followed again when this happens again, as it inevitably will. The difference this time was well spoken white kids, recordings/interviews from inside the school, and kids predisposed to agreeing with the anti-NRA message.

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Originally Posted by ja308 View Post
#5 Not one word of how everyone in that county did not do their jobs or how the Obama/Holder/Runcie PROMISE PROGRAM paid districts to NOT report criminal behavior !
Just saying
Didn't realize Promise was a federal program. I can find no reference. Please provide links or something. I was under the impression it was a Broward County thing (Runcie) and not a federally supported program.
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Old 05-16-2018, 7:50 PM
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Didn't realize Promise was a federal program. I can find no reference. Please provide links or something. I was under the impression it was a Broward County thing (Runcie) and not a federally supported program.
If you believe the reporting, then it's a chicken or the egg situation.

3/1/18 - Behind Cruz's Florida Rampage, Obama's School-Leniency Policy

Quote:
...Documents reviewed by RealClearInvestigations and interviews show that his school district in Florida’s Broward County was in the vanguard of a strategy, adopted by more than 50 other major school districts nationwide, allowing thousands of troubled, often violent, students to commit crimes without legal consequence. The aim was to slow the "school-to-prison pipeline." ...

In 2013, the year before Cruz entered high school, the Broward County school system rewrote its discipline policy to make it much more difficult for administrators to suspend or expel problem students, or for campus police to arrest them for misdemeanors– including some of the crimes Cruz allegedly committed in the years and months leading up to the deadly Feb. 14 shooting at his Fort Lauderdale-area school.

The new policy resulted from an Obama administration effort begun in 2011 to keep students in school and improve racial outcomes (timeline here), and came against a backdrop of other efforts to rein in perceived excesses in "zero tolerance" discipline policies, including in Florida.

Broward school Superintendent Robert W. Runcie – a Chicagoan and Harvard graduate with close ties to President Obama and his Education Department – signed an agreement with the county sheriff and other local jurisdictions to trade cops for counseling. Students charged with various misdemeanors, including assault, would now be disciplined through participation in “healing circles,” obstacle courses and other “self-esteem building” exercises.

Asserting that minority students, in particular, were treated unfairly by traditional approaches to school discipline, Runcie’s goal was to slash arrests and ensure that students, no matter how delinquent, graduated without criminal records...

Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel backed Runcie’s plan to diminish the authority of police in responding to campus crime. A November 2013 video shows him signing the district’s 16-page "collaborative agreement on school discipline,” which lists more than a dozen misdemeanors that can no longer be reported to police, along with five steps police must “exhaust” before even considering placing a student under arrest...

Runcie had been working closely with Obama Education Secretary Arne Duncan on the reforms ever since landing the Broward job in 2011, using as a reference the name of the Cabinet secretary, his former boss in the Chicago school system.

Applications for federal grants reveal that Runcie’s plan factored into approval of tens of millions of dollars in federal funding from Duncan's department.

In January 2014, his department issued new discipline guidelines strongly recommending that the nation's schools use law enforcement measures and out-of-school suspensions as a last resort. Announced jointly by Duncan and then-Attorney General Eric Holder, the new procedures came as more than friendly guidance from Uncle Sam – they also came with threats of federal investigations and defunding for districts that refused to fully comply.

In 2015, the White House spotlighted Runcie's leading role in the effort during a summit called “Rethink School Discipline." Broward, the nation’s sixth largest school district, is one of 53 major districts across the country to adopt the federal guidelines, which remain in effect today due to administrative rules delaying a plan by the Trump administration to withdraw them...

"Broward County adopted a lenient disciplinary policy similar to those adopted by many other districts under pressure from the Obama administration to reduce racial ‘disparities’ in suspensions and expulsions,” said Peter Kirsanow, a black conservative on the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights in Washington. "In many of these districts, the drive to 'get our numbers right' has produced disastrous results, with startling increases in both the number and severity of disciplinary offenses, including assaults and beatings of teachers and students.”...

No district has taken this new approach further than Broward County. The core of the approach is a program called PROMISE (Preventing Recidivism through Opportunities, Mentoring, Interventions, Support & Education), which substitutes counseling for criminal detention for students who break the law...

Additional literature reveals that students referred to PROMISE for in-school misdemeanors – including assault, theft, vandalism, underage drinking and drug use – receive a controversial alternative punishment known as restorative justice...

Students who participate in the sessions and respond appropriately to difficult situations are rewarded by counselors with prizes called “choice rewards,” which they select in advance. Parents are asked to chip in money to help pay for the rewards.

Listed among the district’s “restorative justice partners” is the Broward Sheriff’s Office. Deputies and local police officers, as well as court officials, routinely attend meetings with PROMISE leaders, where they receive training in such emotional support programs.

The program also includes a separate juvenile “system of care,” rather than the regular court system, where delinquents and parents are counseled about the consequences of getting caught up in the criminal system.

Broward's launch of the new initiative synced up with a discipline policy shift advocated by the Justice Department. “A routine school disciplinary infraction should land a student in the principal’s office, not in a police precinct,” asserted Holder in January 2014...

A repeat offender, Cruz benefited from the lax discipline policy, if not the counseling. Although he was disciplined for a string of offenses -- including assault, threatening teachers and carrying bullets in his backpack -- he was never taken into custody or even expelled. Instead, school authorities referred him to mandatory counseling or transferred him to alternative schools...

Yet even though Broward’s crusade has resulted in a more than 63 percent reduction in the annual rate of overall student arrests, Runcie has said he is not satisfied because the percentage of arrests of black students continues to be disproportionately high compared with whites...
Note the portions I placed in bold/italics. Did the program come before the funding or was the program, at least in part, premised on the potential for the funding?

Either way, it's clear that Runcie was a follower of the Administration's lead.
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Old 05-16-2018, 9:48 PM
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Sure Root
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi..._students.html


"The Obama bureaucrats incentivized Broward to go even further, awarding the district nearly $54 million in grants to improve the lives of students in poverty and students of color," she said. "The standard to show that their lives are actually improving? Fewer arrests at schools, less police involvement, fewer disciplinary problems, at least on paper. So, school administrators were basically paid to deal with student crime in-house and keep the cops off the premises."
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Old 05-17-2018, 1:00 AM
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Sure Root
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi..._students.html


"The Obama bureaucrats incentivized Broward to go even further, awarding the district nearly $54 million in grants to improve the lives of students in poverty and students of color," she said. "The standard to show that their lives are actually improving? Fewer arrests at schools, less police involvement, fewer disciplinary problems, at least on paper. So, school administrators were basically paid to deal with student crime in-house and keep the cops off the premises."
Good reference. Money corrupted the entire thing as we all knew, but I didn't know this extent.

However to be fair, PROMISE is not a federal program. It is a program setup by Broward County to bring in the $$$. If PROMISE were a federal program then we'd have to blame Trump for not doing something about this idiocy. The kid was getting in trouble after Trump was elected too.

Basically, this puke bag in Broward figured out a way to stiff the federal government out of money that should have been going to teachers and students who needed it.

I'd really like to see where that money really went. I wouldn't be at all shocked if it end up lining his pockets. That is something I DO blame the Obama administration for if they can't show where the money went.
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