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  #1  
Old 05-13-2018, 1:59 AM
Joejitsu Joejitsu is offline
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Default Documented cases of appendix carry fails?

Iím strongly thinking about switching to appendix carry (from the fad of 4:30 carry in a hybrid holster from 5 years ago). The reason? Well, clothing styles change and being Iím not an obese 60 y/o I prefer to keep up with the times. Long shirts are out of style now which means less concealment when bending over or sitting. Anyway, I think I can handle the comfort aspect, but of course worry about the safety aspect. Anyone know of any documented cases of someone blowing through their junk or femoral artery/nerve when attempting to appendix carry? Iím not interested in theoretical risks, only reals life instances when someone has had what we all fear happen. Or is it just a paranoia unicorn that nobody has actually heard of happening in real life?
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Old 05-13-2018, 4:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Joejitsu View Post
Iím strongly thinking about switching to appendix carry (from the fad of 4:30 carry in a hybrid holster from 5 years ago). The reason? Well, clothing styles change and being Iím not an obese 60 y/o I prefer to keep up with the times. Long shirts are out of style now which means less concealment when bending over or sitting. Anyway, I think I can handle the comfort aspect, but of course worry about the safety aspect. Anyone know of any documented cases of someone blowing through their junk or femoral artery/nerve when attempting to appendix carry? Iím not interested in theoretical risks, only reals life instances when someone has had what we all fear happen. Or is it just a paranoia unicorn that nobody has actually heard of happening in real life?
Practice often, use finger safety and use quality holsters..... All Is Well
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Old 05-13-2018, 4:51 AM
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No documented cases here.
I AOWB carried in my 20's with no issues.
Now I'm overweight and 59 (today) and carry at 2:30.
I never liked carrying 3:30 to 9.

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Old 05-15-2018, 7:13 AM
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I have heard it mentioned, but do not know of any actual stories myself. I think it comes down to knowing your gun and having a good holster and using care. I watched a video last week where they were testing draw times of appendix vs side carry. I shuddered watching some of the guys slamming the glock 19 back in the holster. I carry a 19 in a JM Custom kydex AIWB holster. I feel very comfortable and safe doing so, but take great care to watch the trigger when reholstering.
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Old 05-15-2018, 8:36 PM
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Yes, I have been in the room when a person with many, many years of firearms experience had a catastrophic failure with AIWB carry. “Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend shoot”
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Old 05-15-2018, 8:43 PM
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A few months ago a gentleman put one through his sack when reholstering at Burro Canyon.
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Old 05-15-2018, 8:59 PM
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Old 05-15-2018, 9:04 PM
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Iíve carried mainly AIWB for two years. I use a good thick leather holster that protects the trigger. Also, ALWAYS only insert the gun into the pants while already in the holster.

Otherwise, other than the stories above, Iíve never heard of any ND while AIWB.
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Old 05-15-2018, 10:40 PM
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I went so far as to buy one size larger than required in a simple suede holster that allows a shirt to tuk into it if you don't want a loose shirt look. The entire gun except a portion of the butt is encased due to the 1x larger size.. Still plenty of gun to grasp to draw but the trigger and full slide are encased this way, no metal against skin, no need to wear an undershirt. As already stated above, I agree and holster the weapon before placing into the pants.
Try it around the house (unloaded for practice) to see if it'll suit your need, it's about the only carry that allows you to draw if in a vehicle with a seat belt on.
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Old 05-15-2018, 11:14 PM
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Consider something with a thumb safety
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Old 05-16-2018, 4:51 AM
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I’m 60+ and appendix carry. I carry a 1911 cocked and locked. Never ever ever get in a hurry when you re-holster. Carry a weapon with a safety. Glocks are so good at firing sometimes they do it all by themselves or at least people with NDs would have you believe.
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Old 05-16-2018, 6:03 PM
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At Burro Canyon. Detailed anatomical diagram included!

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...0&postcount=65
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Old 05-16-2018, 6:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Iíve carried mainly AIWB for two years. I use a good thick leather holster that protects the trigger. Also, ALWAYS only insert the gun into the pants while already in the holster.

Otherwise, other than the stories above, Iíve never heard of any ND while AIWB.
How do you suppose I should actually practice doing this? You don't think it's a bit impractical if I'm doing more than a few draws? Come on
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Old 05-16-2018, 7:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Black_Talon View Post
At Burro Canyon. Detailed anatomical diagram included!

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...0&postcount=65
Jesus ****in Christ
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Old 05-16-2018, 8:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Black_Talon View Post
At Burro Canyon. Detailed anatomical diagram included!

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...0&postcount=65
This article almost scares me into stopping appendix carry but also shows how important it is to make sure the holster and trigger guard are completely clear of any obstructions before reholstering.
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Old 05-16-2018, 8:14 PM
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Default Documented cases of appendix carry fails?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trackcage View Post
How do you suppose I should actually practice doing this? You don't think it's a bit impractical if I'm doing more than a few draws? Come on


What I said applies if itís loaded. You can practice your draw unloaded. And if you want to practice drawing and holstering while loaded, well thatís your deal.

Last edited by EMR; 05-16-2018 at 8:18 PM..
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:14 PM
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As for practicing I can't say, but when I qualified the instructor had us gripping, pulling, presenting, firing, decocking or activating safeties as per your equipment, and then holstering. If you were carrying AIWB there was no time for you to remove your holster to holster the gun and then replace the holstered pistol on your belt. For those souls with striker fired handguns (Glocks), the RO merely said for them to look down into their holsters and ensure that they were clear before attempting to holster their weapons.
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
As for practicing I can't say, but when I qualified the instructor had us gripping, pulling, presenting, firing, decocking or activating safeties as per your equipment, and then holstering. If you were carrying AIWB there was no time for you to remove your holster to holster the gun and then replace the holstered pistol on your belt. For those souls with striker fired handguns (Glocks), the RO merely said for them to look down into their holsters and ensure that they were clear before attempting to holster their weapons.
Reholstering isnt supposed to be a quick manuever.
You should look when youre reholstering in my opinion.
I mean whether your holster is located at 12 or 4, a discharge while reholstering is not something that you want.
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Old 05-17-2018, 4:07 AM
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Good points above....gun designs are different, choosing one with redundant safety features like hammer disconnect, thumb safety, etc may be more critical for your emotional comfort with appendix.
At least with AIWB your eyes are on every part of re-holstering, can't say that for anything past a 3 o'clock carry.
Our ccw instructor prefers (but does not demand) for outside waistband holsters for qualifying as he can see what everyone is doing without individual checks after each firing cycle.
Note: He acknowledges it is not real world for concealed carry but qualifying is not supposed to be combat training, that is a separate class. Safe gun handling and an acceptable level of accuracy are the goals. He has no control over how people carry once they leave the class setting (he carries OWB full size 1911 locked and cocked in a high and tight holster with a pulled out shirt, he's a big guy so it works for him).

Practice with appendix carry can be tedious and must be approached with patience. After a few hundred cycles of draw-dry fire and re-holster I have gained a level of confidence in both weapon and myself to make AIWB comfortable. I figure if I need to draw-fire-and re-holster loaded it is a weird situation anyway, more likely to keep the weapon out or I can choose to unload and pocket it, re-holster or just hold it if the threat is neutralized. No need to try and re-holster a loaded weapon. I figure I'm better off letting LEO see me (in his eyes a threat until proven otherwise) place an unloaded weapon on the ground and put my hands up immediately upon his arrival and before being ordered to, rather than having a hidden weapon I have to draw...seems to me drawing it as soon as he has eyes on you as he drives up is a dangerous maneuver...at that point my goal is for LEO to feel safe so I am safe...thoughts...am I all wet about this?
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  #20  
Old 05-17-2018, 4:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joejitsu View Post
Well, clothing styles change and being Iím not an obese 60 y/o I prefer to keep up with the times. Long shirts are out of style now which means less concealment when bending over or sitting.
Dress around the gun. If youíre more interested in style, carry your gun in your man bag.

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Old 05-17-2018, 6:26 AM
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I run a ClipDraw and a MIC holster.. no worries about the trigger
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Old 05-17-2018, 6:47 AM
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Dress around the gun. If youíre more interested in style, carry your gun in your man bag.

Attachment 707622
And there ya' have it.
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Old 05-17-2018, 7:26 AM
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you can have all of the above safety measures in check but the firearm needs to be in check as well.

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Old 05-17-2018, 8:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwalt View Post
Quote:
"On Friday evening, Mr. Phonisay apparently decided that he wanted to [take] a selfie with his handgun...
I suspect a lot of NDs are a result of using the gun as a prop for a photo opportunity.
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Old 05-17-2018, 8:30 AM
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I remember a case. But the guy was a perp. Mexican appendix carry. After robbing the 7-11 he stuck the 38 back in his waste band and ran down the street. Handgun slipped, he grabbed it and his junk became history.

True story, happened in Redland's in the 80's.

Point is not that appendix carry is bad but that proper equipment is good.
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:33 AM
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Yeah, I know a guy who shot himself in the thigh with a sawed off 410 stuffed down his pant when he was a 15 year old gang banger. Probably a good thing in the end because it changed his life.

But I think the OP meant with proper holsters and appropriate weapons.

Best advice I've read on it "If you're going to appendix carry don't practice until you get it right. Practice until you can't get it wrong".

I don't have a CCW (L.A. County- let's see how the election goes) so I'm not pretending to be an expert but I would feel uncomfortable flagging myself in the vitals.
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonestargrizzly View Post
Reholstering isnt supposed to be a quick manuever.
You should look when youre reholstering in my opinion.
I mean whether your holster is located at 12 or 4, a discharge while reholstering is not something that you want.
Yep. What the instructor was doing was unsafe imo, but he was the instructor and I was not one of the persons carrying AIWB. But as for always looking, it's a ***** when your holster is out of sight.
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:48 AM
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Ok, i get it. Some of you don't like the idea of reholstering a loaded weapon appendix. The great thing about this world is you get to do it your way and I can do mine.

That said, you're not being practical when it comes to training classes, range time, and practice.

Safety > practicality. No argument there. But the notion that you can't safely reholster a hot weapon is completely ridiculous. Even a Glock. There are safe ways to do it while still completely following all 4 rules of firearm safety.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by trackcage View Post
Ok, i get it. Some of you don't like the idea of reholstering a loaded weapon appendix. The great thing about this world is you get to do it your way and I can do mine.



That said, you're not being practical when it comes to training classes, range time, and practice.



Safety > practicality. No argument there. But the notion that you can't safely reholster a hot weapon is completely ridiculous. Even a Glock. There are safe ways to do it while still completely following all 4 rules of firearm safety.


Itís your nuts on the line, not mine. It takes me 2 extra seconds I remove my holster and another 2 to put it back in.

You do you.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Itís your nuts on the line, not mine. It takes me 2 extra seconds I remove my holster and another 2 to put it back in.

You do you.


So in a gunfight while your significant other is on the ground bleeding youíre gonna take the 4-5 seconds to reholster or youíre gonna ND into your own leg because you havenít practiced proper reholstering under stress.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:36 AM
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Default Documented cases of appendix carry fails?

Quote:
Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
So in a gunfight while your significant other is on the ground bleeding youíre gonna take the 4-5 seconds to reholster or youíre gonna ND into your own leg because you havenít practiced proper reholstering under stress.


Oh God, here we go.... Iím not getting into this argument with you.
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Old 05-17-2018, 2:25 PM
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'What-if' is really simply one person's opinion, valid as far as it goes which is often no further than that one person. I respect the right to have that opinion but it's tied to too many variables to validate and a complete solution is impossible. My guess is this is what OSHA uses for it's motto (does anyone love those plastic fuel cans with the safety twist-push spout?).

Out of the over 90k that hold a CCW in Ca there are very few accidental gunshots, at least as reported by our comprehensive and unbiased media (LOL). As a general view does that not point to the overall conscientiousness and skill of CCW people?

My bottom line is to train slowly with as many repetitions as necessary to feel competent and polished in the movement, then train to increase speed if needed ...regardless of the task. It is up to the individual to decide what works for them. Every decision involves acceptable risk vs worth.

Different carry's, gun action types, calibers and holster styles.... they can all work if the person handling the 'tool' is up to the task through training and necessary decisions at the time of the incident. So in my mind it comes down to informed personal opinion and thorough follow-up to that opinion. No debate, just my take on it. Thank you and good night.
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Old 05-17-2018, 9:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joejitsu View Post
Iím strongly thinking about switching to appendix carry (from the fad of 4:30 carry in a hybrid holster from 5 years ago). The reason? Well, clothing styles change and being Iím not an obese 60 y/o I prefer to keep up with the times. Long shirts are out of style now which means less concealment when bending over or sitting. Anyway, I think I can handle the comfort aspect, but of course worry about the safety aspect. Anyone know of any documented cases of someone blowing through their junk or femoral artery/nerve when attempting to appendix carry? Iím not interested in theoretical risks, only reals life instances when someone has had what we all fear happen. Or is it just a paranoia unicorn that nobody has actually heard of happening in real life?
If you have a quality holster and have good trigger finger discipline there are few issue. Most are health related, a couple are functional.

In a road rage scenario, your startle response will likely cause the seat belt to lock up making it hard to release. (Sort of like when you drop something and try to reach for it and the belts lock up). The issue with appendix is trying to draw with the belt on. (This isn't a problem for a 3-3:30 carry, but getting shirt up and out of the way with the shoulder harness cross belt can be very difficult bordering on impossible. Given your more likely to be in a car accident than an encounter requiring the gun, you have added risk of internal injuries when the gun is compressed into the gut by the seat belt under load, resulting in the possibility of organ damage and sever soft tissue damage.

It is important that if you do carry your comfortable and the gun does not compress and interrupt the intestines.

In a close in contact fight - say someone is close to you arms reach pan handling your refuse and the grab and stab, not uncommon among violent attacks, you may find creating separation well being physically handled even to a shot from retention is harder than the fall back blade draw from 3:30.

If you plan for the worst, you have a better chance of surviving. Only you know your dexterity and ability in a fast, close, violent encounter where you weren't expecting it.

Many holster and carry systems will work fine, the issue is fit (adaptability mostly up and down) clothing style, and realization that draw not re-holster is the priority.

My suggestion is then to shoot some competition with the rig and your normal clothing, or better yet put the shock belt on, and go into the simulator, with a competent instructor that can render a judgemental use of force decision, and see if you prevail.
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