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  #1  
Old 04-05-2018, 6:53 PM
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Talking Talk me in or out of an HK UMP clone

So Atlantic has some of these in:



The UMP never really entered into my wish list as it was not well known, to me. But here they are, available as a clone. Not sure if the real HK UMP was ever sold to US civvies. I love PDW style guns, but some have horrible ergonomics, some have horrible triggers or sights.

What has been your experience?
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  #2  
Old 04-05-2018, 7:02 PM
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I had a 9mm and .40 mp5 been thinking about one of those too. They are just so damn expensive.
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  #3  
Old 04-05-2018, 7:17 PM
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I have a USC carbine I converted to look like a UMP. It is my LEAST favorite HK firearm (and I have most of them). The internals look like they were made by a first year CNC student (completely square and blocky) The recoil is actually unpleasant as the light polymer gun really rattles when fired. And THAT is with a carbine with a full 16" barrel. On the flip side, it is completely reliable and very accurate.
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Old 04-05-2018, 8:01 PM
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Umm, I shot them on the pretend internets... so I suggest you BUY ONE NAO!
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  #5  
Old 04-05-2018, 8:16 PM
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Iíve used a select fire MP5A3. Lots of jams on the older models but Iím not sure if the new clones fixed that or not.
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Old 04-05-2018, 9:09 PM
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Can we still get these in Cali? I know its off-roster but even if you're roster exempt?
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:12 PM
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I'd get an MP5 if A) They weren't so expensive and B) There was a decent featureless option. So much nostalgia lol
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  #8  
Old 04-06-2018, 3:13 AM
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The price has come down on these and they are in line with other Roller lock offerings. $1600 - $1799 range


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  #9  
Old 04-06-2018, 5:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigStiCK View Post
Can we still get these in Cali? I know its off-roster but even if you're roster exempt?
Because of CA unsafe handgun laws and CA assault weapons laws...

A CA FFL dealer can legally transfer a CA legal variant using an exemption (LEO sale, out-of-state intra-familial gift, PPT).

CA legal variant meaning it needs to operate using a fixed 10 round magazine that can not be removed without disassembling the firearm's action or that is permanenetly attached in the firearm's magazine well.
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  #10  
Old 04-06-2018, 5:11 AM
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Ive been eyeing these as well, its on my short list for when I move in May.
The price is steep for sure, but its one of those things that in ten years far harder to find.
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  #11  
Old 04-06-2018, 8:00 AM
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Yes when I move to AZ I'll get some version maybe even a SBR
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  #12  
Old 04-06-2018, 8:28 AM
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if you are going to spend that much money, just get the B&T APC 9 or .45. The build quality is better and the UMP is a POS. The B&T is like a UMP made out of metal. It shoots nicer and guaranteed it will last longer than a UMP with its plastic internal guide rails.
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  #13  
Old 04-06-2018, 8:43 AM
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I’ve got a USC in .45 I bought for about $1800. And I was able to get a UMP FBI 2 position lower (safe,fire) from HK parts online for about $399. Haven’t done the conversion yet. The folding stock was another $100 and the other parts needed to finish it were around $200. It’s a good gun accurate and seems quiet because of the 16” barrel. I saw the clones on Atlantic and decided I needed the real deal. The delayed blow back is nice never had a jam. German guns hold their value in my opinion.
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  #14  
Old 04-06-2018, 8:50 AM
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How are these gun even legal in CA?

This gun has everyone of the Banned Features and it is SBR?

Or are all the guys talking on this thread Cops?

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  #15  
Old 04-06-2018, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAL.BAR View Post
I have a USC carbine I converted to look like a UMP. It is my LEAST favorite HK firearm (and I have most of them). The internals look like they were made by a first year CNC student (completely square and blocky) The recoil is actually unpleasant as the light polymer gun really rattles when fired. And THAT is with a carbine with a full 16" barrel. On the flip side, it is completely reliable and very accurate.
Thanks for the comment! How are the ergonomics? The sights?

I realize expecting a 1911-like trigger is unrealistic.


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Originally Posted by Over It View Post
if you are going to spend that much money, just get the B&T APC 9 or .45. The build quality is better and the UMP is a POS. The B&T is like a UMP made out of metal. It shoots nicer and guaranteed it will last longer than a UMP with its plastic internal guide rails.
Thanks. That one has been covered . Not a question of either this or that, it's more like "Should I?" LOL. The APC9 is inbound, so I'm afraid getting the UMP afterward may be a let down.
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Old 04-06-2018, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
So Atlantic has some of these in:







The UMP never really entered into my wish list as it was not well known, to me. But here they are, available as a clone. Not sure if the real HK UMP was ever sold to US civvies. I love PDW style guns, but some have horrible ergonomics, some have horrible triggers or sights.



What has been your experience?


The US version was called a USC. Besides a pretty hideous fixed stock, the mag opening in the upper could only accommodate special 10 round mags. I bought one one went through the UMP conversion process 5 years ago. Since the upper is the serialized part, you can purchase an UMP lower (H&K Parts ,HDPS sell them) without the select fire control group. Only minor modification are required. The mag opening in the upper has to be expanded to accept UMP mags. You have to change a few other little parts to be in compliance with Fed regs (section 922 parts). The front attachment hooks on the lower have to be enlarged. Hera Arms also makes a lower adaptor that requires no modification and uses USC mags. However in CA with the new BBRAW regs you canít build one unless itís featureless. Which means no telescoping stock, no front grip, and a fin. So it pretty much defeats the whole purpose of doing the conversion.

Mine is a hoot to shoot. Get proficient with the trigger and you start to get the 45 APC subgun experience.


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  #17  
Old 04-06-2018, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
The US version was called a USC. Besides a pretty hideous fixed stock, a 16Ē barrel, and the mag opening in the upper could only accommodate special 10 round mags. I bought one one went through the UMP conversion process 5 years ago. Since the upper is the serialized part, you can purchase an UMP lower (H&K Parts ,HDPS sell them) without the select fire control group. Only minor modification are required. The mag opening in the upper has to be expanded to accept UMP mags. You have to change a few other little parts to be in compliance with Fed regs (section 922 parts). The front attachment hooks on the lower have to be enlarged. Hera Arms also makes a lower adaptor that requires no modification and uses USC mags. However in CA with the new BBRAW regs you canít build one unless itís featureless. Which means no telescoping stock, no front grip, and a fin. So it pretty much defeats the whole purpose of doing the conversion.

Mine is a hoot to shoot. Get proficient with the trigger and you start to get the 45 APC subgun experience.

In a free state the UMP would be fun as an SBR suppressed.


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  #18  
Old 04-06-2018, 3:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
The US version was called a USC. Besides a pretty hideous fixed stock, the mag opening in the upper could only accommodate special 10 round mags. I bought one one went through the UMP conversion process 5 years ago. Since the upper is the serialized part, you can purchase an UMP lower (H&K Parts ,HDPS sell them) without the select fire control group. Only minor modification are required. The mag opening in the upper has to be expanded to accept UMP mags. You have to change a few other little parts to be in compliance with Fed regs (section 922 parts). The front attachment hooks on the lower have to be enlarged. Hera Arms also makes a lower adaptor that requires no modification and uses USC mags. However in CA with the new BBRAW regs you canít build one unless itís featureless. Which means no telescoping stock, no front grip, and a fin. So it pretty much defeats the whole purpose of doing the conversion.

Mine is a hoot to shoot. Get proficient with the trigger and you start to get the 45 APC subgun experience.


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Thanks for the useful info. How do you find the ergos, grip, controls, cheekweld, etc? No aftermarket trigger available, right?
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Old 04-06-2018, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Thanks for the useful info. How do you find the ergos, grip, controls, cheekweld, etc? No aftermarket trigger available, right?


Originally I built it as a period correct for an UMP with factory butt stock and forward grip with the CA legal 16Ē barrel. The stock USC trigger is average. (The sights barely average. For a PCC itís fine remembering it was designed as a spray and pray sub-gun, but accuracy suffers) The sights are low to the rail so most red dot donít co-witness. (Besides I have an astigmatism and red dot donít work for me). The butt stock isnít very ergonomic either. No FTF or stovepipes. Extremely reliable.


So I re configured it. I put an telescoping ACR stock with an adjustable cheek rest. I put a crimson trace V fore grip with a laser and weapon light in it. (And a faux suppressor to hide the 16Ē barrel) Huge improvement. Recoil is nominal with no muzzle rise. Under 50 yards its 10 rounds in one MOA. I can shoot smiley faces on targets. Beyond 50 yards, just understand and practice the ballistic limitation of a 45 APC and youíll be fine. I go to a range with programmable moving carriers which adds to the fun factor. Everyone that shoots it, loves it.

So at night it resides under the bed for HD.




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Old 04-06-2018, 7:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
Originally I built it as a period correct for an UMP with factory butt stock and forward grip with the CA legal 16Ē barrel. The stock USC trigger is average. (The sights barely average. For a PCC itís fine remembering it was designed as a spray and pray sub-gun, but accuracy suffers) The sights are low to the rail so most red dot donít co-witness. (Besides I have an astigmatism and red dot donít work for me). The butt stock isnít very ergonomic either. No FTF or stovepipes. Extremely reliable.


So I re configured it. I put an telescoping ACR stock with an adjustable cheek rest. I put a crimson trace V fore grip with a laser and weapon light in it. (And a faux suppressor to hide the 16Ē barrel) Huge improvement. Recoil is nominal with no muzzle rise. Under 50 yards its 10 rounds in one MOA. I can shoot smiley faces on targets. Beyond 50 yards, just understand and practice the ballistic limitation of a 45 APC and youíll be fine. I go to a range with programmable moving carriers which adds to the fun factor. Everyone that shoots it, loves it.

So at night it resides under the bed for HD.




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Sounds like a fine functional gun! You have any pics of the gun? My eyes aren't what they used to be and a low magnification glass is what I am thinking, maybe the 1.5 ACOG.

I thought you were referring to the B&T APC45, but you were referring to the round! I've shied away from buying another cartridge, so am sticking to the good ol' 9mm. For me, these are only range toys, not anymore than that lol
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  #21  
Old 04-06-2018, 9:13 PM
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I know you're looking at that specific model, but I'll add that I currently own, and love, my Zenith Z5RS / MP5 "Clone". I had the opportunity to try out a select-fire MP5 some time ago & was seriously impressed with how easy it was to accurately place 30 rounds down range in a split second.

My Zenith has been 100% reliable & is boringly accurate out to 50 yards. I would HIGHLY recommend one & the $1700 buy-in is worth it imho.
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BigStiCK View Post


I know you're looking at that specific model, but I'll add that I currently own, and love, my Zenith Z5RS / MP5 "Clone". I had the opportunity to try out a select-fire MP5 some time ago & was seriously impressed with how easy it was to accurately place 30 rounds down range in a split second.

My Zenith has been 100% reliable & is boringly accurate out to 50 yards. I would HIGHLY recommend one & the $1700 buy-in is worth it imho.
Thanks. Peeps are saying how accurate their HK subguns are. I wonder if that has to do with the HK-style sights

I still dislike my MP5 trigger, but I realize it is an old design compared to, say, the MPX or the APC9. Maybe mine wasn't the best build, but I never did follow through with mine. I got mine from Atlantic Firearms also, but it did not seem to have the correct HK parts.
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Old 04-07-2018, 5:17 AM
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
How are these gun even legal in CA?
Because of CA unsafe handgun laws and CA assault weapons laws...

A CA FFL dealer can legally transfer a CA legal variant using an exemption (LEO sale, out-of-state intra-familial gift, PPT).

CA legal variant meaning it needs to operate using a fixed 10 round magazine that can not be removed without disassembling the firearm's action or that is permanenetly attached in the firearm's magazine well.
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Old 05-21-2018, 9:43 AM
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The UMP and USC line are exceptionally accurate weapons and best done in Free State configuration. It's the most accurate 45ACP carbine and very very reliable due to simple blow back function.

I used to shoot 45 Super through them.

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Old 05-21-2018, 9:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Thanks for the comment! How are the ergonomics? The sights?

I realize expecting a 1911-like trigger is unrealistic.




Thanks. That one has been covered . Not a question of either this or that, it's more like "Should I?" LOL. The APC9 is inbound, so I'm afraid getting the UMP afterward may be a let down.

Ergos are just OK. Sights.... put a red dot on it. Trigger.... OK, but not fantastic. Of course it's not an Olympic target pistol, but mine (the carbine) has a long barrel and is VERY accurate. Just not all the fun to shoot quite frankly.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Thanks. Peeps are saying how accurate their HK subguns are. I wonder if that has to do with the HK-style sights
.
The MP5 and other closed bolt Gen 3 sub-guns are easier to shoot accurately than the Gen 1 and 2 open bolt subguns (Thompson, Sten, MP40 etc.) due to lighter bolts, better lock-up and because you are only releasing an internal hammer or striker when you pull the trigger; on subsequent shots the light bolt is closed (or very nearly so) before the hammer will release again.

On open-bolt subguns pulling the trigger releases a huge, heavy bolt (usually with a fixed firing pin) with long travel that must chamber a round and slam/ignite it as it fully chambers when you pull the trigger, which upsets the guns position and which keeps occurring until you release the trigger or run out of ammo, rocking the gun somewhat like a pendulum. The Uzi is one of the more accurate open bolt guns due to its telescoping bolt which keeps more of the bolt weight forward (ahead of the breachface) and reduces length of bolt travel, which was also copied in the MAC series.

Personally, based upon a lot of time and $$$$ spent in free states shooting legal NFA stuff, I prefer the MP5 for its accuracy, magazines and construction with the Uzi in second place due to its robust and user friendly design. I love Thompsons for their looks, history and appearance but they don't shoot as well for me due to weight and length of pull.
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Old 05-21-2018, 6:49 PM
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The MP5 and other closed bolt Gen 3 sub-guns are easier to shoot accurately than the Gen 1 and 2 open bolt subguns (Thompson, Sten, MP40 etc.) due to lighter bolts, better lock-up and because you are only releasing an internal hammer or striker when you pull the trigger; on subsequent shots the light bolt is closed (or very nearly so) before the hammer will release again.

On open-bolt subguns pulling the trigger releases a huge, heavy bolt (usually with a fixed firing pin) with long travel that must chamber a round and slam/ignite it as it fully chambers when you pull the trigger, which upsets the guns position and which keeps occurring until you release the trigger or run out of ammo, rocking the gun somewhat like a pendulum. The Uzi is one of the more accurate open bolt guns due to its telescoping bolt which keeps more of the bolt weight forward (ahead of the breachface) and reduces length of bolt travel, which was also copied in the MAC series.

Personally, based upon a lot of time and $$$$ spent in free states shooting legal NFA stuff, I prefer the MP5 for its accuracy, magazines and construction with the Uzi in second place due to its robust and user friendly design. I love Thompsons for their looks, history and appearance but they don't shoot as well for me due to weight and length of pull.
Thanks for the explanation. That makes a lot of sense.

Too bad Atlantic is OOS on these. Hope they'll be back, but plenty of good PDW stuff coming out to keep the wallet thin.
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Old 05-21-2018, 8:01 PM
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I have both a usc thatís been converted to a ump clone, and an sp5k (mp5k clone). Iíll take the sp5k any day of the week over the usc/ump. Iíll never sell my usc though.


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Old 05-21-2018, 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Helio View Post
Iíve got a USC in .45 I bought for about $1800. And I was able to get a UMP FBI 2 position lower (safe,fire) from HK parts online for about $399. Havenít done the conversion yet. The folding stock was another $100 and the other parts needed to finish it were around $200. Itís a good gun accurate and seems quiet because of the 16Ē barrel. I saw the clones on Atlantic and decided I needed the real deal. The delayed blow back is nice never had a jam. German guns hold their value in my opinion.


I bought a USC on close out for $1,500 (Thank you Turners). I considered the UMP lowers, which have the advantage using higher cap lower cost UMP mags (which is partially negated by CA 10 round mag cap) but requires some mill work to the upper magwell and pivot hooks. The folding stock puts you under 30Ē OAL, so that advantage is also negated. (You also need some 922r compliance parts). However leaving the UDCj goofy stock was still annoying. So I went with a HERA arms buttstock adaptor allowing the use of an ACR or any M4 stock (I went with the ACR). HDPS makes a nice faux suppressor that covers the entire length of the long barrel that sticks out. With a forward laser grip, itís a hoot to shoot.


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Old 05-22-2018, 8:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Over It View Post
if you are going to spend that much money, just get the B&T APC 9 or .45. The build quality is better and the UMP is a POS. The B&T is like a UMP made out of metal. It shoots nicer and guaranteed it will last longer than a UMP with its plastic internal guide rails.
I disagree.

I have both a B&T and a UMP, both are very high build quality.

I really like them both, and have had no issues whatsoever in the years I have used my UMP. I have somewhere around 2-3k rounds through it, which isn't all that much, but not a single problem whatsoever.
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Old 05-22-2018, 8:16 AM
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Thanks for the comment! How are the ergonomics? The sights?

I realize expecting a 1911-like trigger is unrealistic.




Thanks. That one has been covered . Not a question of either this or that, it's more like "Should I?" LOL. The APC9 is inbound, so I'm afraid getting the UMP afterward may be a let down.
my B&T GHM uses a AR type trigger that has as good of feel (for the most part) as my Geissele 2-stage triggers.

They say it can be swapped with AR triggers, but I really see no need as the trigger is smooth though takeup, hits a good wall, and has a clean break without perceptible creep.

I don't recall the overtravel being bad, but if anything screws me up on a trigger is too much overtravel as I sometimes don't let it return far enough to reset. This has been a problem on a couple ruger triggers I have used (on my own SP101 .357 and a Ruger Alaskan in .454) This only occurs under 3 shot rapid fire practice. Which is sort of an issue as the practice is for high stress situation, and if it does that ... well, that sucks. Bear food.

I still carry it, and know it is more my own error and I need to come completely off the trigger, but I am an idiot. I do better with less overtravel.
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Old 05-22-2018, 6:46 PM
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I have both a usc thatís been converted to a ump clone, and an sp5k (mp5k clone). Iíll take the sp5k any day of the week over the usc/ump. Iíll never sell my usc though.


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Those Sp5ks look pretty sick.

gotta say, I would rather have one of those than a MP5 Clone. I know I don't live in the FA wallet world and have come to terms with it.

I would guess a MP5 FA sear is up in the $20-$30k realm these days, no?
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Old 05-22-2018, 7:57 PM
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I would guess a MP5 FA sear is up in the $20-$30k realm these days, no?


Probably do Sir. I donít look at them anymore either. Plus I can rent an mp5 any time for like 40 bucks and ammo costs so itís really out of the question for me. Iíd rather buy a sports car


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Old 05-22-2018, 8:50 PM
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my B&T GHM uses a AR type trigger that has as good of feel (for the most part) as my Geissele 2-stage triggers.

They say it can be swapped with AR triggers, but I really see no need as the trigger is smooth though takeup, hits a good wall, and has a clean break without perceptible creep.

I don't recall the overtravel being bad, but if anything screws me up on a trigger is too much overtravel as I sometimes don't let it return far enough to reset. This has been a problem on a couple ruger triggers I have used.
There is controversy if B&T triggers can be swapped with 100% of the aftermarket AR triggers out there. Some people have done it, others have said they don't work 100%:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...eview-bt-apc9/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...fitted-bt-apc/

https://shootingsight.com/product/pr...update-bt-apc/

At introduction of the APC, B&T was saying milspec AR triggers would work, but they no longer claim that.

The last website above offers their own B&T compatible triggers, but they only state compatibility with the APC and the TP9. Not sure if it work on the GHM9, but it sounds you are happy with with your trigger.

I have a MP5 clone just for the ownership factor. I've never liked the overall ergos and feel, but I realize it may be highly dependent on the clone maker. Mine is a Turner Fabrication clone. Maybe once I get all the free state features returned to it, I'll like it better. I just like the classic MP5 lines that I find missing with the SP5K.
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Old 05-22-2018, 9:56 PM
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Probably do Sir. I donít look at them anymore either. Plus I can rent an mp5 any time for like 40 bucks and ammo costs so itís really out of the question for me. Iíd rather buy a sports car


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That is funny,

Ordinarily I would agree, but since I put my corvette in the weeds and spent most of last year 'habbing, I am cool with just the truck and bikes for a bit.
|Better bet, fishing haha!

but yeah,
Cool as FA is, I can see me sitting on the beach in Hawaii for 6 months instead LOL.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:04 PM
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There is controversy if B&T triggers can be swapped with 100% of the aftermarket AR triggers out there. Some people have done it, others have said they don't work 100%:


At introduction of the APC, B&T was saying milspec AR triggers would work, but they no longer claim that. ...



I have a MP5 clone just for the ownership factor. I've never liked the overall ergos and feel, but I realize it may be highly dependent on the clone maker. Mine is a Turner Fabrication clone. Maybe once I get all the free state features returned to it, I'll like it better. I just like the classic MP5 lines that I find missing with the SP5K.
I am pretty new to the B&T firearms as far as ownership goes, but have bought their stuff for HK firearms over the years and have drooled from afar.

I guess I could have popped for an APC, but living in CA, that is a bit of a problem. Now that I am free, I lucked out with the timing and got into a "entry level" B&T haha!
I am actually really happy with it, and I am with you that I wish the SB braces were better construction, as they have the best shape.

I just got the Dakota tactical and Tailhook ordered, along with 5 more B&T mags, (all are currently available if you have the need), but that skinny *** post (as nicely machined as it may be) is no sort of cheek weld comfort. The only comfort is the fact that it is for a 9para round.

I haven't even put eyes on an actual tailhook but the pics and reputation seem that they are well constructed, so I am hopeful they are good, we will see. So goes the $300 question.

I am looking forward to release of the collapsible. I will waste the additional $800 for it, just because I have no will. Would rather work another shift LOL
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:34 PM
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I am pretty new to the B&T firearms as far as ownership goes, but have bought their stuff for HK firearms over the years and have drooled from afar.

I guess I could have popped for an APC, but living in CA, that is a bit of a problem. Now that I am free, I lucked out with the timing and got into a "entry level" B&T haha!
I am actually really happy with it, and I am with you that I wish the SB braces were better construction, as they have the best shape.

I just got the Dakota tactical and Tailhook ordered, along with 5 more B&T mags, (all are currently available if you have the need), but that skinny *** post (as nicely machined as it may be) is no sort of cheek weld comfort. The only comfort is the fact that it is for a 9para round.

I haven't even put eyes on an actual tailhook but the pics and reputation seem that they are well constructed, so I am hopeful they are good, we will see. So goes the $300 question.

I am looking forward to release of the collapsible. I will waste the additional $800 for it, just because I have no will. Would rather work another shift LOL
I find that this B&T addiction is just as bad as my CZ addiction. Good start with the GHM9, it'll snowball quickly, you will see lol

The APC308 with the new AR-compatible grip is looking good. A tax stamp would simply make it irresistible!
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:35 AM
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I had a USC, to which I added a trigger housing which would accommodate M3 "Grease Gun" mags and dyed the grey receiver black to match the conversion housing. The same modification to the USC receiver to accommodate UMP mags is required for the M3 conversion also. It was almost boringly accurate and fun to shoot. It's one of the few firearms that I'm sorry that I sold.

As for the Omega clone, you might want to take a look at the Clone forum on HKpro. Some folks are having problems with theirs, some aren't. The good thing about getting one from Atlantic is that they will back the product.
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