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  #1  
Old 11-26-2019, 8:08 AM
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Post Was the American Revolution contrary to scripture?

Had an interesting discussion with my Pastor last week. We were discussing 1 Peter 2 about obeying those in leadership and authority. He asked me if I thought the American Revolution was a sinful thing. I told him we have a right to defend ourselves, our families and our countrymen from tyrrany and abuse. Then he shared 1 Peter 2:13-17

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13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution,[b] whether it be to the emperor[c] as supreme, 14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. 16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants[d] of God. 17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.
What do you think? Was the American Revolution contrary to the will of God? Was it sin, or was it divinely appointed?
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Old 11-26-2019, 4:23 PM
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This topic was hashed out before as I recall and ran itself into the ground. Kinda like the topic on Romans 13:1-7.
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Old 11-27-2019, 9:58 PM
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Depends on which side of the bridge at Concord you were on.
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Old 11-28-2019, 7:30 AM
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I have given this a lot of thought. God was clearly involved in the revolution. We had many losses, which put a higher value on the freedom that we achieved. We had some tenuous situations that turned into victories, which shows the hand of God was with us. This country has provided its citizens with freedom, including the ability to worship God. This country has stopped oppression and provided the freedom of people throughout the world. This country has provided assistance to so many countries. We did all of this with the help of God.

If our revolution was contrary to the Bible, I don't believe God would have blessed us as He has.
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Old 11-28-2019, 12:09 PM
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Just a thought about the US. I believe God has blessed us as a country. Was the revolution scriptural. I don’t think so but God uses all things to His will.

Something I will throw out for comment. As it can be argued that the
Holocaust was used to drive the Jewish nation back to Israel, the US having the highest number of Jews in the world. Was the US put in place as a shelter to the Jewish people as a whole?
I say this as God has raised up kingdoms and placed his people in them through bondage or being conquered but allowed to practice their beliefs. Anyways food for thought.
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Old 11-28-2019, 12:32 PM
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Mosques outnumber churches in the UK now, Would be the same here no doubt. Would have been a sin not to.
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Old 12-02-2019, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash View Post
This topic was hashed out before as I recall and ran itself into the ground. Kinda like the topic on Romans 13:1-7.
Yup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
Had an interesting discussion with my Pastor last week. We were discussing 1 Peter 2 about obeying those in leadership and authority. [...]

What do you think? Was the American Revolution contrary to the will of God? Was it sin, or was it divinely appointed?
At the end of Joshua 5, the Angel of The Lord-- very possibly the pre-incarnate Christ Himself-- appeared to Joshua, who asked Him "Are you for us, or for our adversaries?" What does the reply Joshua received suggest to you? To me, it suggests that the answer is more complex than the binary "us or them" choice Joshua presented. The modern equivalent would be like meeting The Angel of The Lord today and asking Him if he supports Trump or not.

God has raised up countless peoples, tribes, cities, and nations throughout history, according to the good purpose of His will. America is one of those nations, but at the time of the revolution there were Christians on both sides of the debate.

Gotquestions offers a pretty good brief overview; for a more in-depth look at the various sides, Christian History has a whole issue devoted to the American Revolution.

The many pieces in that issue look at various aspects of the war, many of which are very thought-provoking, even when we view the war in hindsight. For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian History, "Christianity and the American Revolution: Did You Know?"
In July 1775, as tensions with the British rose, the Continental Congress called for a day of prayer and fasting. Most ministers used the occasion to preach for the colonial cause, but Anglican clergyman Jonathan Boucher spoke instead on the need to obey constituted authority. Concerned about his safety in proclaiming such an unpopular view, he carried into his pulpit not only his sermon manuscript but also a loaded pistol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian History, "Christianity and the American Revolution: A Gallery of Christians in the Cause"
The Reverend John Witherspoon, champion of both Calvinism and common sense, left his mark on the Presbyterian church, the American Revolution, and the U.S. Constitution. Of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, Witherspoon was the only clergyman.

He was born in Scotland, the son of a Scottish minister, and he received his license to preach from the University of Edinburgh in 1743. He soon was at the center of a deep rift in the Scottish church, a champion of the conservative faction. He preached a strict Calvinism and despised ministers who took a more humanist approach.
[...]
Witherspoon’s common-sense views and his concern for the church led him to argue that the colonies ought to sever ties with England. “There is not a single instance in history,” he stated, “in which civil liberty was lost and religious liberty preserved.” Starting in May 1776, he began arguing for independence from the pulpit, earning him the Tory title, “Doctor Silverspoon, Preacher of Sedition in America.”

He was appointed to the Second Continental Congress in 1776. As the delegates wavered about declaring independence, he told them, “America is not only ripe for the measure but in danger of rotting for the want of it!”
This provides a taste of what they offer there, in this issue originally published back in 1996.

I thought the following was important:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian History, "A Revolution in Religion, Too"
In this issue, we’ve looked at how Christianity influenced the Revolutionary War. Now we turn to the next question, How did the war influence the American church? And where do we see its impact still today? To help us think about these questions, Christian History spoke with Mark Noll, professor of history at Wheaton College (Illinois).
[...]
Today many people hotly debate our nation’s philosophical origins, whether they were Christian or rationalist, communal or individualistic. Why the near—religious passion about a historical question?

The American Revolution remains a signpost, even a foundation, for contemporary discussion about the American experiment, the American way of life. So there is almost always contemporary political interest in historical discussions about what ideas influenced the American Revolution. Modern Christians want to find a specifically Christian root; modern communitarians want to find a communitarian root; modern liberals want to see an individualistic orientation, and on it goes. The historical question is intimately bound up with the contemporary search for a better American way of life.

Where do you stand in these debates?

I find myself troubled by them because the modern discussion is almost always simpler than the historical reality of the 1770s. My own feeling is that almost all of these ideologies contributed to the American Revolution—with different weight, different effects, and in different regions—and most historians agree. It is the historian’s job to sort out the relative importance of these influences.

The historical task and the contemporary task are related but separate. Modern debates are concerned about what America should be like today. The historian tries to discover what beliefs energized independence back then. The American Revolution at best can only advise us about modern questions. We are under no moral or historical obligation to continue the American experiment based on the founding fathers’ vision, whatever it might have been. On the other hand, as we debate today, we would be foolish to shut our ears to the voice of history.


Another discussion among Christians has to do with the justness of the American Revolution. By traditional just—war standards, set out first by Augustine, was the American Revolution a just war?

I thought this through at some length during the bicentennial years, 1975–76, when many Christians were asking that question. I came to the conclusion that on classic just-war standards, the American Revolution did not qualify. The British did indeed clamp down economically and politically in the 1770s, but it’s also pretty clear that Americans were not sufficiently oppressed to justify taking up arms. In fact, despite the many restrictions placed upon them by the British, they were still one of the freest people on the face of the earth.

But this modern discussion is a bit academic because at the time only a few believers spoke about the war in just-war terms. Furthermore, despite my belief now that the war was not just, had I lived then, my American context and evangelical convictions would have swept me up into the patriotic cause.

How has studying the Revolution for some 25 years made a difference in your personal faith?

First, it has reminded me of how powerful, for good and for ill, religious motives can be in certain political circumstances. There’s no doubt that Christian reasoning and emotion added tremendously to the drive for American independence. I believe that Christian energy was for the most part understandable, and Christian support for the war gave the churches an opening with Americans that their counterparts in Europe soon lost.

Second and more sobering, I’ve seen the damage done to Christian faith when there is a confusion between loyalties. In some instances, on both the British and American sides, loyalty to the political cause was equated with loyalty to Christ. That type of political foundation can never be as deep, as broad, or as important as the bond that unites believers in Christ. Today it is still all too easy to subordinate my faith in Christ to political or social convictions. Studying the Revolution has helped me remember that I should be loyal to different things in different ways, and that my deepest loyalty should always belong to Christ.
What I am trying to say with the Joshua 5 reference is that believers have to keep first things first. I am privileged to be American, but a hundred years from now I will not care about the kingdom of America at all, because I will be living in the Kingdom of God.
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Old 12-02-2019, 8:51 PM
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Originally Posted by socal m1 shooter View Post
Yup.

God has raised up countless peoples, tribes, cities, and nations throughout history, according to the good purpose of His will. America is one of those nations, but at the time of the revolution there were Christians on both sides of the debate. .
Only one side had the King as the Head of the Church. The other side followed the WORD of God only. There is your difference.
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:19 PM
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Only one side had the King as the Head of the Church. The other side followed the WORD of God only. There is your difference.
Sorry to say, but that is very much oversimplified. You ought to have a look at some of the links I posted.
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Old 12-03-2019, 5:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
What do you think? Was the American Revolution contrary to the will of God? Was it sin, or was it divinely appointed?

The Colonials REPEATEDLY asked the crown, to UPHOLD British law with the colonists (they didn't). Overly taxed, and common law protections DENIED, the FINAL straw happened, when the British marched against Lexington & Concord, to confiscate their arms - ownership of which was protected under British Common Law of 1681 (the citizenry shall be permitted arms the equivalent to those of the standing army).

The American Revolution was, more accurately, the American RESTORATION, and thus did NOT violate the spirit of Romans 13, but rather UPHELD it.
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Old 12-03-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
Had an interesting discussion with my Pastor last week. We were discussing 1 Peter 2 about obeying those in leadership and authority. He asked me if I thought the American Revolution was a sinful thing. I told him we have a right to defend ourselves, our families and our countrymen from tyrrany and abuse. Then he shared 1 Peter 2:13-17



What do you think? Was the American Revolution contrary to the will of God? Was it sin, or was it divinely appointed?
It was contrary to the will of God. We're fortunate that God has blessed us in spite of our sinful beginning. Rom 13, 1 Peter 2, Christ in the Gospels, etc. Everyone who says the American Revolution was biblical has to take Bible verses out-of-context. There's a great chapter by Geisler in his Christian ethics book that explains how Christians are to respond to government.

Not worth fighting over, as that would be sin too.

Just praise the Lord for what He has allowed us to have in this country. We're not a "Christian" nation anyhow, so why would anyone have expected the revolutionists to have obeyed God!

God bless,
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Old 12-03-2019, 2:41 PM
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It was not contrary to the will of God. Take another look at The Mayflower Compact and Jeremiah ch 1 vs 1-10. The english king did everything he could to trash it. It works for me, maybe not for you.

Psalm 1
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Old 12-03-2019, 2:54 PM
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It was not contrary to the will of God. Take another look at The Mayflower Compact and Jeremiah ch 1 vs 1-10. The english king did everything he could to trash it. It works for me, maybe not for you.

Psalm 1
Interesting. I didn't know that Jeremiah was on the Mayflower and was called by God to minister to the pilgrims. IOW, that passage is WAY out of context and not applicable. Sorry.
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Old 12-07-2019, 7:36 AM
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The American Revolution was fomented in churches regardless of what King James said in his bible.

Nowdays it depends on how bad a church wants to keep it's tax exempt status.
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Old 12-07-2019, 3:59 PM
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Just a thought about the US. I believe God has blessed us as a country. Was the revolution scriptural. I don’t think so but God uses all things to His will.
^^^ Agreed.

God only cares about one thing... That is, people finding and accepting Him alone for our salvation. Everything else in this world is a distraction (temptation) presented by Satan.
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Old 12-08-2019, 11:45 PM
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The Bible clearly states we must obey those that have the authority over us.

Clearly the King and his Parliament had authority over his British subjects residing among the voting constituencies in England. But not over those peoples who say lived in France.

The war was about whether the King of England had legitimate authority over peoples in the new world colonies who weren't even represented in Parliament at all.
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