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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #81  
Old 09-21-2011, 9:01 PM
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Todd Jarrett is a machine!

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  #82  
Old 09-21-2011, 9:16 PM
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Larry Vicker's take on this subject:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.ph...&postcount=112
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  #83  
Old 09-22-2011, 5:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
How many SERPA holsters are out there in circulation?
Well, there is at least this anecdotal data, from the IDPA Nationals equipment survey.

126 Comp-Tacs
89 Blade-Techs
26 Safariland
11 Fobus
10 Uncle Mikes
3 Serpas

http://www.idpa.com/tj.asp?ID=252
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  #84  
Old 09-22-2011, 8:52 AM
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Originally Posted by HighLander51 View Post
Well, there is at least this anecdotal data, from the IDPA Nationals equipment survey.

126 Comp-Tacs
89 Blade-Techs
26 Safariland
11 Fobus
10 Uncle Mikes
3 Serpas

http://www.idpa.com/tj.asp?ID=252
You could probably make that 2 Serpas after last weekend at Taft.
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  #85  
Old 09-22-2011, 8:54 AM
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You could probably make that 2 Serpas after last weekend at Taft.
LOL. You insinuated someone from Taft would go to nationals!

Maybe Edward Reyna (not that he has a home club, he shoots every where!), but of course he wouldn't be using a SERPA.
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  #86  
Old 09-22-2011, 9:17 AM
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You could probably make that 2 Serpas after last weekend at Taft.... except the survey is from 2009, maybe before all the AD's. IDPA does publish this survey every year after a Nationals, but for some reason this is all I could find.
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  #87  
Old 09-22-2011, 9:42 AM
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I tried a SERPA out, while dryfiring a 1911. I can see how the design could make a mistake more likely (though still obviously it is a mistake on the part of the shooter), especially in a high stress moment. For a retention mechanism, I think I'll stick to using a different finger and/or a different direction.

Thanks to the OP for bringing this to light. Best wishes and hopes for a quick recovery to the shooter.
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  #88  
Old 09-22-2011, 11:50 AM
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Like I said earlier, there is no advanantage to a retention holster in any gun games, however in IDPA, an IWB holster provides plenty of retention without lockout devices. Try to take a gun out of someones IWB sometime, using a training gun, of course.
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  #89  
Old 09-22-2011, 12:26 PM
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There actually have been a number of NDs involving Serpa. Because of that, some ranges don't permit them to be used.

http://www.google.com/search?q=surpa...ient=firefox-a

.
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  #90  
Old 09-22-2011, 2:13 PM
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Why do people get so emotionally attached to a product? Sorry, but it's clear that the retention design of the Serpa is flawed. As for training, so if I learn to pull decent times around a race track with a frame damaged car, does that mean the car is not flawed?
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  #91  
Old 09-22-2011, 3:03 PM
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I dont know about you guys but I use my middle joint finger to press the release toggle. That way I minimize the tip of my finger from going anywhere. My finger is always straight and if I do mess up my finger hits the trigger guard instead, but its never happen, I've only tried to mess up (with no ammo of course) and that was the result.
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  #92  
Old 09-22-2011, 3:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mif_slim View Post
I dont know about you guys but I use my middle joint finger to press the release toggle. That way I minimize the tip of my finger from going anywhere. My finger is always straight and if I do mess up my finger hits the trigger guard instead, but its never happen, I've only tried to mess up (with no ammo of course) and that was the result.
You realizing that "trying to mess up" is not going to generate accurate data, right?

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  #93  
Old 09-22-2011, 4:25 PM
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You know, in industrial engineering, especially in critical manufacturing, if the same type of accident happens more than once, we examine all of the things that might possibly contribute (not just cause), and we change all of them if we can economically. We don't bother to prove causality, and we don't rely on training alone. Seems like that approach would be useful in the firearms industry from time to time.

Of course, the SERPA manufacturer won't want to change, because they paid for the molds and won't want to admit the need to change. But it sounds like a number of ranges and trainers have taken this approach already.
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  #94  
Old 09-22-2011, 4:38 PM
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We remember this guy. He was using a Serpa
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  #95  
Old 09-22-2011, 4:46 PM
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I think as more ranges, trainers and training facilities disallow the SERPA, the problem will slowly correct itself. Hopefully, no future SERPA related ND's will result in a death or a permanent disability because that's gonna leave a mark and that could mean big headaches for Blackhawk.

Hehehe, I just check out Doheny's link and I had to quote these together...

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I want a 45acp because when fired at a bad guy and miss, Mars vaporize, the sun shuts down for a second and the bad guy still turns into mist!
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6a. He was shot point blank with a .45ACP.....he still has his leg, he was not knocked down, and the planet did not reverse its rotational axis. Just saying.
One thing trumps everything else, SHOT PLACEMENT.
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  #96  
Old 09-22-2011, 6:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guns_and_labs View Post
. . .if the same type of accident happens more than once, we examine all of the things that might possibly contribute (not just cause), and we change all of them if we can economically. . .
If you are looking at all the things that *might* contribute and change them regardless of whether they actually do contribute, how do you know you aren't making the problem worse? It seems counter to the scientific method.

Further, accidents are not 100% avoidable in the real world . . . how do you know your aren't taking an optimum system and making it sub-optimum?

Not trying to be a smart ***, just trying to understand the engineering approach.
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  #97  
Old 09-22-2011, 7:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
If you are looking at all the things that *might* contribute and change them regardless of whether they actually do contribute, how do you know you aren't making the problem worse? It seems counter to the scientific method.

Further, accidents are not 100% avoidable in the real world . . . how do you know your aren't taking an optimum system and making it sub-optimum?

Not trying to be a smart ***, just trying to understand the engineering approach.
Well, actually, we try to model the changes ahead of time, and we dry run them in a controlled environment. These are not process changes, though, they are interface changes.

It is absolutely not a scientific method approach - we have separate labs for science and manufacturing.

If it was an optimum system, then we wouldn't be able to find potential improvements, I guess ... but I've never seen an optimum system in manufacturing so I wouldn't know.

Let me give an example. We had some benches to sit on, to change into clean garments. Metal bench, easy to clean, with a validated cleaning method, etc. A guy cut himself by putting his finger into the wire mesh. We had two choices: train operators not to put their fingers into the mesh (duh), or change out the benches to ones that had no sharp edges. We did the latter, AND we had a training session on not putting fingers into the mesh (duh).

So, to move it to relevance. One could train shooters to only use a straight finger to release the SERPA. Or one could move to a different retention device using a different finger or a different direction. Or both. In our plant, we would choose both.
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  #98  
Old 09-22-2011, 8:26 PM
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If anybody still cares. I was just chatting with the shooter who is the topic of this thread. He is doing fine and expects to be at our next match...w/o his Serpa holster
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  #99  
Old 09-22-2011, 8:29 PM
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Glad to hear he is climbing back up on his horse. I hope the effects of his wounds soon vanish.
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  #100  
Old 09-22-2011, 8:41 PM
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Ty, I just responded to your question on the IDPA forum too.

You asked why the sign only says to send 1 person to the turn off to the range. I'm looking to amend it,to read two.
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  #101  
Old 09-22-2011, 8:50 PM
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[QUOTE=Desert_Rat;7201109]If anybody still cares. I was just chatting with the shooter who is the topic of this thread. He is doing fine and expects to be at our next match...w/o his Serpa holster[/]

I'm very glad to hear he is doing well!
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Last edited by joefreas; 09-22-2011 at 9:13 PM..
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  #102  
Old 09-22-2011, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Desert_Rat View Post
Ty, I just responded to your question on the IDPA forum too.

You asked why the sign only says to send 1 person to the turn off to the range. I'm looking to amend it,to read two.
After the Florida ND and Gryff's email our board decided to upgrade our EAP at our home range immediately. I have been scouring any club willing to share their plan to with me. Im looking for any published and unpublished EAP plans that ranges have. By reading EAP's from other clubs I hope to get ideas I hadn't even thought of. We have a bay at our club that has to be cleared immediately as it is the LZ for the helicopter. While trying to cover every possible scenario without becoming overly complicated is the challenge. I enjoyed your photo. I had not thought of the phrase "stay calm". lol
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  #103  
Old 09-22-2011, 9:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Desert_Rat View Post
If anybody still cares. I was just chatting with the shooter who is the topic of this thread. He is doing fine and expects to be at our next match...w/o his Serpa holster
Its good to hear he is doing well. Give him my best wishes.

Keith
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  #104  
Old 09-22-2011, 9:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bombmaster View Post
After the Florida ND and Gryff's email our board decided to upgrade our EAP at our home range immediately. I have been scouring any club willing to share their plan to with me. Im looking for any published and unpublished EAP plans that ranges have. By reading EAP's from other clubs I hope to get ideas I hadn't even thought of. We have a bay at our club that has to be cleared immediately as it is the LZ for the helicopter. While trying to cover every possible scenario without becoming overly complicated is the challenge. I enjoyed your photo. I had not thought of the phrase "stay calm". lol
We were going to do GPS coordinates on our sign, but EMS SOP is to transport people by ambulance to the nearby airport and extract them by chopper from there.
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  #105  
Old 09-22-2011, 9:27 PM
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It is great that you guys are looking into this ahead of time. Althougn I do have my fingers crossed that this will be the last of these.
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  #106  
Old 09-22-2011, 9:57 PM
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Just another data point but remember that Top Shot's Chris Cerino also had an AD from a ... you guessed it.. Serpa.
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  #107  
Old 09-23-2011, 5:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guns_and_labs View Post
Well, actually, we try to model the changes ahead of time, and we dry run them in a controlled environment. These are not process changes, though, they are interface changes.

It is absolutely not a scientific method approach - we have separate labs for science and manufacturing.

If it was an optimum system, then we wouldn't be able to find potential improvements, I guess ... but I've never seen an optimum system in manufacturing so I wouldn't know.

Let me give an example. We had some benches to sit on, to change into clean garments. Metal bench, easy to clean, with a validated cleaning method, etc. A guy cut himself by putting his finger into the wire mesh. We had two choices: train operators not to put their fingers into the mesh (duh), or change out the benches to ones that had no sharp edges. We did the latter, AND we had a training session on not putting fingers into the mesh (duh).

So, to move it to relevance. One could train shooters to only use a straight finger to release the SERPA. Or one could move to a different retention device using a different finger or a different direction. Or both. In our plant, we would choose both.
Thanks
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  #108  
Old 09-23-2011, 10:08 PM
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It's those DAMN HOLSTERS out there shooting folks!

I experimented extensively with this anomalous draw-fire malf with serpas... It happens ONLY if the shooter is poking the button with his finger, and has deactivated the saftey of a single action gun before breaking muzzle.

Literally tried a dozen different guns- hundreds and hundreds of times- actually TRYING to fire the gun immediately on the draw.

The saftey should be deactivated and trigger finger moved to the blade ONLY while sight picture and target come together. Anybody when pointing a gun, without a target, will keep a straight index finger plantd on the frame of the gun. Try this weth a serpa. If you hit the button wioth a straight index ginger, the gun breakes out and our finger is still straight. No-brainer.

You can blame the holser for being "unsafe" or accident prone- this is not forward thinking.
We have to put bullets in the magazine.
We have to load the charge the gun with a live round.
WE HAVE TO PULL THE TRIGGER.

The now blacklisted "Mr. Blackhawk Holster Serpa" did not shoot this man.

Dude shot himself... Regrettably. I hope this lesson is well learned by him and the rest of us.
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  #109  
Old 09-24-2011, 1:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HK35 View Post
I agree that it is mainly the shooter's fault but the Serpa release location doesn't help. This has been documented and I wonder why Blackhawk hasn't updated the holster design (or have they?). This could end up like the Toyota acceleration issue.
Probably due to patents on other locking mechanisms. I personally like the Safariland holsters with thumb breaks, but they are bulky and usually best used during the winter months.
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  #110  
Old 09-24-2011, 6:15 AM
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Here is my stance on the Serpa. There is definately something with the retention lock. Yes you can train yourself to be safe with such a lock especially if recognize there is a issue with it being used incorrectly and you work your muscle memory until you use it correctly where it's subconscious even when under stress.

My problem is the serpa does not give enough advantage and at such a price point that I can overlook the issues with it and recommend the product to people. It is the opposite. Because of the problem and the lack of advantages over other products that I cannot recommend the serpa.

It's not to the point where when I see a new shooter with a serpa holster that I go up and warn them. It is to the point though when somebody asks me what I think of the serpa I do not hold back. If they ask me and they already have a serpa I recommend training their muscle memory or just disabling the device with a dremel so it functions like a regular open top kydex holster.
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  #111  
Old 09-24-2011, 6:33 AM
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If they ask me and they already have a serpa I recommend training their muscle memory or just disabling the device with a dremel so it functions like a regular open top kydex holster.
However, there is no adjustment screw so advising people to do this in IDPA would ensure that their holster could not retain their firearm if you held it upside down and it would not be IDPA legal.

I like your approach absent telling them to modify it. If it isn't going to use the retention device, then there is zero point in having that holster. Just get something else.
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  #112  
Old 09-24-2011, 8:56 AM
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Anybody seen my dead horse...................?
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  #113  
Old 09-24-2011, 9:03 AM
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Anybody seen my dead horse...................?
Why? Was it wearing a Serpa?
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  #114  
Old 09-24-2011, 9:45 AM
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And continuously folks in the handgun forum ask, "What holster should I get?"

Time and time again people suggest Serpa. There are many experienced shooters on this forum who have voiced otherwise, including myself, but I would say that I can't blame them... it's only the internet.

I think this episode is ANOTHER learning point with choosing the right gear for the right circumstances.

There are vast differences between competition holsters (Comp-tac) and 10-8 holsters (6004/5 Safariland) but it should go without saying, the Serpa (in it's existing design) belongs in neither (or in-between) those categories.
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Old 09-24-2011, 10:17 AM
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Why? Was it wearing a Serpa?
LOL!

Just because the SERPA isn't good for competition doesn't mean it isn't a good retention holster. To each their own.

I don't even use a holster on my carry gun. Mexican style all the way!
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  #116  
Old 09-24-2011, 7:19 PM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
LOL!

Just because the SERPA isn't good for competition doesn't mean it isn't a good retention holster. To each their own.

I don't even use a holster on my carry gun. Mexican style all the way!
Yea, the Serpa is like an airsoft compared to appendix carry, very, very, very dangerous. G31 with Carry Clip shown outside the shirt for clarity

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  #117  
Old 09-24-2011, 11:58 PM
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I think another lesson learned is for clubs to have better trauma kits and to include where the kit is as par tof the shooter's briefing. Thinking about it, I could not even tell you where my local club's kit is on a given match. That's not good. And will be rectified ASAP.
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  #118  
Old 09-25-2011, 10:48 AM
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I think another lesson learned is for clubs to have better trauma kits and to include where the kit is as par tof the shooter's briefing. Thinking about it, I could not even tell you where my local club's kit is on a given match. That's not good. And will be rectified ASAP.
Most clubs don't even have a "trauma" kit. They have a first aid kit with band-aids in it.

I started a thread on having a plan last month after being a match where a shooter popped himself in the leg:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=463981
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  #119  
Old 09-25-2011, 8:42 PM
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El Gato El Gato is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bombmaster View Post
"So Mr. Match Director, You knowingly allowed this man to enter your range and compete in a competition for the first time with a holster, that even the most experienced LEO's, firearm instructors, and top level shooters have had difficulty operating properly themselves. You also admitted you are aware that one of the largest firearm training facilities in America have outright banned them from their property due to their inherent design being more likely to cause this sort of catastrophe. ....
Just as an aside....

At our "gun school" this year we are over the thousand shooters so far this year and are headed for the multiples of that at this point in the year so I'm not sure what a "Large" firearms training facility is or if we would qualify...and I've got over 25 years with my agency and I'm a firearms instructor and the SEM for my agency... so I'm not sure if I'm a I'm an expert or not... but we have lots of serpa's on the range every week.. and beside the aforementioned, and it was a holstering ND not an un-holstering ND... we have had ZERO issues with the serpa holster...perhaps we don't have enough "wanta be ninjas", or top level "shooters" in our establishment...but many of our folks stormed beaches or did a dust off as the dust off 'e....and have seen the elephant and killed the bastard....so our focus is upon the what we would consider a serious shooters who carry daily for self defense...not gamers.... and these folks often carry in ways that would scare your daddy much less your lawyer...but it's a personal choice and that's the way we, and our attorney see it...and we believe it should be...

so if you want to ram a glock down into your drawers sans holster...I would advise against it...but I see it done every week...
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Last edited by El Gato; 09-25-2011 at 8:49 PM..
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  #120  
Old 09-25-2011, 8:54 PM
The Virus The Virus is offline
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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
Why? Was it wearing a Serpa?
As a matter of fact...............
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