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  #1  
Old 05-29-2018, 3:30 PM
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Default 1/30 C&R AND COE HOLDERS for MODERN firearms

Important Notice
(THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES DES BULLETIN TITLED “Information Letter – PC 27535 (a) –
Proper Use” – Posted on 05/09/2014 at 10:43 a.m.)
Regarding handguns purchased by a holder of a Federal Firearms License 03 type (Collector of Curios
and Relics) with a Certificate of Eligibility (COE)
California Penal Code 27535 states that no person shall make an application to purchase more than one
handgun within any 30-day period. This shall not apply to; “Any person who is licensed as a collector
pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the
regulations issued pursuant thereto, and has a current certificate of eligibility issued by the Department
of Justice pursuant to Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) of Chapter 2.” (Pen. Code, § 27535,
subd. (b)(9).)
An individual licensed as a collector with a valid COE may purchase more than one handgun in a 30-day
period. This includes Curio and Relic type firearms and firearms identified on the roster of handguns
certified for sale in the state of California. Please use the following instructions when processing this
type of transaction:
The Curio/Relic Handgun Sale should be selected as the transaction type, in the DROS Entry System
(DES), for all handgun types. (i.e a Curio and Relic firearm or firearms identified on the roster of
handguns certified for sale)


It indicates you must choose COLLECTOR and COE number while using the Curio/Relic handgun sale option.

Wont this let you release it from the 10 day hold even if it is modern? Are w supposed to hold it for 10 days before we deliver a moden gun?>
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Last edited by shootsocal_dave; 05-29-2018 at 4:10 PM..
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Old 05-29-2018, 3:32 PM
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TALKED TO DOJ

My rep told me even on modern guns, YES they would also be exempt from the 10 day wait.

***there is still Penal Codes that say otherwise so that may not be true*** I think We need to sit back and see how this pans out.
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Last edited by shootsocal_dave; 05-29-2018 at 4:36 PM..
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Old 05-29-2018, 4:01 PM
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26815.
No firearm shall be delivered:

(a) Within 10 days of the application to purchase, or, after notice by the department pursuant to Section 28220, within 10 days of the submission to the department of any correction to the application, or within 10 days of the submission to the department of any fee required pursuant to Section 28225, whichever is later.

----------------------------------------------------------------
26970. (a) The waiting period described in Section 26815 does not apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or transfer of a firearm if all of the following conditions are satisfied:

(1) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.

(2) The sale, delivery, loan, or transfer is made by a dealer.

(3) The sale, delivery, loan, or transfer is made to a person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(4) The licensed collector has a current certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 26710.

(b) On the date that the sale, delivery, or transfer is made, the dealer delivering the firearm shall transmit to the Department of Justice an electronic or telephonic report of the transaction as is indicated in Section 28160 or 28165.

So when we choose COLLECTOR on waiting period exemption, type the COE and it auto chooses YES on a MODERN ROSTERED gun, the delivery button is automaticly populated. When I called the DOJ said yea you can deliver lol but I am finding things that say otherwise. Does this change it?
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Old 05-29-2018, 4:39 PM
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If someone with a C&R and COE buys two Modern Roster firearms, and we register them as Curio/Relic Handgun Sales as per the bulletin, choosing COLLECTOR in the waiting period and typing the COE number, thus AUTO exempting from the 30 day, that will remove the 10 day wait from the DROS. Is this CORRECT?

Are we to HOLD the firearm for 10 days or are we able to DELIVER the firearm? The Waiting Period Exemption box will populate the DELIVER NOW button.

https://ibb.co/mPPFFy

I sent this to the DOJ, lets see what I get back...
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Last edited by shootsocal_dave; 05-29-2018 at 4:41 PM..
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Old 05-29-2018, 4:42 PM
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https://ibb.co/mPPFFy
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Old 05-29-2018, 4:46 PM
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This is great news. Its "C&R" for CA DOJ here in terms of paperwork, but not for ATF so no logging in the A&D book if modern?
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Old 05-29-2018, 5:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
This is great news. Its "C&R" for CA DOJ here in terms of paperwork, but not for ATF so no logging in the A&D book if modern?


Right. You have to look at DES, C&R sales is the option that lets you put your collector and COE # where modern and exempt only offer CFD And special weapons options. So rather than redesign DES they just said use that potion.


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Old 05-29-2018, 5:13 PM
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Why wouldn't we log this into our bound book? I log C&Rs in my bound book. Or is the person asking about bound book referring to an FFL03 bound book?
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Old 05-29-2018, 5:51 PM
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FFL03 + COE is supposed to be exempt and was exempt from 10-day and 1-in-30 for C&R according to an older bulletin. This was true until Harris stated otherwise (not in a bulletin). The copy of the original bulletin is floating around somewhere around here.

I'm not sure how to process for modern since one has never come up on my end. I've only ever done C&R transfers.


EDIT: Here's the bulletin for 1-in-30 (99-07-FD published 12/17/99)

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...obuls/9907.pdf

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  #10  
Old 05-29-2018, 6:04 PM
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Would this also negate the <=6 outgoing PPTs since they’re including modern “on roster” guns for 03+COE?
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  #11  
Old 05-29-2018, 6:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The CA DOJ "new" view is that the 1 in 30 exemption does not apply for modern firearms, even though the CA PC says otherwise.


You missed the major part here. The bulletin in DES today states that decision has he resented, and modern guns are exempt for C&R AND MODERN FOR C&R and COE holders.


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Old 05-29-2018, 6:06 PM
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Default 1/30 C&amp;R AND COE HOLDERS for MODERN firearms

Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
Why wouldn't we log this into our bound book? I log C&Rs in my bound book. Or is the person asking about bound book referring to an FFL03 bound book?


We are talking about the DEALER registering MODERN guns in the C&R option per the DOJ bulliten. That doesn’t actually make it C&R so you wouldn’t log it in your personal C&r book.

Not the dealers a&d book.


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Old 05-29-2018, 6:09 PM
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Hmm, I'd go try this except (checks bank balance),oh yeah, I'm still broke from taxes with another estimated payment in 2 weeks. Well,that, and I'm not sure what I'd want that's on roster.
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Old 05-29-2018, 6:11 PM
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I mis-read the original and hadn't read the bulletin.

I have to wonder what happened for them to change their view. I assume a lawsuit as I don't think that they would suddenly realize their mistake.

It is quite strange that for modern firearms you also have to use the Curio/Relic Handgun Sale instead of their adding a 1 in 30 exemption option for a collector. Makes it harder to ensure that you get the correct firearm listed.
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Old 05-29-2018, 6:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
I mis-read the original and hadn't read the bulletin.

I have to wonder what happened for them to change their view. I assume a lawsuit as I don't think that they would suddenly realize their mistake.

It is quite strange that for modern firearms you also have to use the Curio/Relic Handgun Sale instead of their adding a 1 in 30 exemption option for a collector. Makes it harder to ensure that you get the correct firearm listed.


I don’t know why they just didn’t have us check the 30 day exempt button. Now it brings up the question, are we 10 day exempt! When you choose C&r with collector and COE it will exempt you from the 10 day too! So what, are we exempt or are we supposed to hold it in the honor system like the old days?


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Old 05-29-2018, 6:15 PM
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A C&R FFL holder with a CA DOJ COE is not exempt from the 10 day waiting period and the bulletin does not mention anything about the waiting period. I think they got lazy in how to fix the problem. I would not release the firearm before 10 days until and unless the CA DOJ puts it in writing that the firearm can be delivered prior to the 240 hours passing.
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Old 05-29-2018, 6:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
I don’t know why they just didn’t have us check the 30 day exempt button. Now it brings up the question, are we 10 day exempt! When you choose C&r with collector and COE it will exempt you from the 10 day too! So what, are we exempt or are we supposed to hold it in the honor system like the old days?
That is a fine question. It would make much more sense to submit the DROS and just mark the 30 day restriction exemption, BUT they said to submit it as a Curio/Relic and I don't think that checking that box actually works as it should.

So there is the question as to do it the right way, or the CA DOJ way.

No, the CA PC does not say that a C&R FFL holder with a CA DOJ COE is exempt from the waiting and the CA DOJ hasn't said anything about it, so it would be dangerous to to release it before the 10 days.
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Old 05-29-2018, 6:23 PM
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Well 1) I called the DOJ and my rep implied the 10 day may be exempt by default though it was a snap answer and not official 2) I sent a email to the DOJ detailing this Dilemma and asking for clarification and 3) I literally posted the PC supporting that position.

It’s pretty big to leave something that wide open on their part. I didn’t say rush out and start delivering modern guns on the spot, but this does open a large questionable discrepancy in the rule making.


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Old 05-29-2018, 6:28 PM
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I think we will see a bulletin in 24-48 hours I bet.

10 day exempt or not

1/30 exempt is still a win


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Old 05-29-2018, 6:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
Well 1) I called the DOJ and my rep implied the 10 day may be exempt by default though it was a snap answer and not official 2) I sent a email to the DOJ detailing this Dilemma and asking for clarification and 3) I literally posted the PC supporting that position.

It’s pretty big to leave something that wide open on their part. I didn’t say rush out and start delivering modern guns on the spot, but this does open a large questionable discrepancy in the rule making.
The CA PC is clear on the waiting period for modern firearms.

Yeah, it is pretty big to say leave a hole like that open, but then again it also could give them something to go after FFLs for. I would not deliver a firearm early unless the CA DOJ says in writing that it is acceptable and even at that it might be a risk.

In the past, it seems like marking the 30 day exemption is worthless as I don't think that they actually see that the box was checked (had a problem with a customer, another FFL and two handgun sales).
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Last edited by kemasa; 05-29-2018 at 6:56 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 05-29-2018, 6:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
I think we will see a bulletin in 24-48 hours I bet.
I would take that bet that we don't see it within that time period.

Quote:
10 day exempt or not
They should make that issue quite clear ASAP, but I suspect things work far more slowly for them to respond that quickly.

Quote:
1/30 exempt is still a win
Well, I disagree. The CA PC states that, so it really isn't a win, it is the law, and the CA DOJ is finally following the law for some reason. I get what you mean and it is good that they finally came around, but it is more like them no longer abusing people.

Now if we could get the BOE to change their view on private party sales of firearms from out of state, that would be as it should and a bit of a win :-).
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Old 05-29-2018, 6:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The CA PC is clear on the waiting period for modern firearms.



Yeah, it is pretty big to say leave a hole like that open, but then again it also could give them something to go after FFLs for. I would not deliver a firearm early unless the CA DOJ says in writing that it is acceptable and even at that it might be a reisk.



In the past, it seems like marking the 30 day exemption is worthless as I don't think that they actually see that the box was checked (had a problem with a customer, another FFL and two handgun sales).

I’m hoping they respond to my email. I sent it as a official request for clarification. So who knows. I think they will post something. I agree. The 10 day exemption in the OC says for C&R guns per the federal definition are 10 day exempt. Not for C&R holders. But I don’t know how that lawsuit went


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Old 05-29-2018, 7:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
I have to wonder what happened for them to change their view. I assume a lawsuit as I don't think that they would suddenly realize their mistake.
The final order from the judge in Doe v Becerra was issued on 5/2/18. The state lost on this and was ordered to follow the law as written.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1525902127
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Old 05-29-2018, 7:37 PM
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That explains things, thanks.

it doesn't explain why they are being stupid in how the transaction is to be processed though.
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Old 05-29-2018, 8:09 PM
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Here's the bulletin, came through the DES system at my workplace today.
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Old 05-29-2018, 8:13 PM
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Default C&R (FFL03) and COE 1/30 Handgun Ruling Per DOJ 5-29-18

For the FFL's in here that have not seen the DES Bulletin that came through this afternoon, it states that now FFL03 holders with a COE are exempt from the 1/30 handgun ruling, for modern handguns, as well as C&R guns as well, but will need to run the transaction differently than a standard handgun sale from what I read on the bulletin.
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  #27  
Old 05-29-2018, 8:33 PM
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it doesn't explain why they are being stupid in how the transaction is to be processed though.
The suit was originally because they could not properly interpret and easy to read law. Now they are doing a work around in the software that is stupid instead of a simple software upgrade.

This is now causing the confusion about the exemption to the 10 day wait period for modern guns. I would love that. I am not sure where that suit is at at the moment. I have several guns so the waiting period is not a cooling off period.

I read the PC again and that pesky phrase that all must apply is there so the 10 day wait is only waived for C&R guns. I would not be surprised if the DOJ sends out something that says the 10 day wait is waived then a few days later rescinds it.

So, I still have to make two trips to UGI Imports to pick up my Winchester M1 Garand and Remington Nylon 66 that I happened to find from the same dealer at an auction last week. That killed my tax refund.
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  #28  
Old 05-29-2018, 10:31 PM
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Man this is great news, wish they had done it when I just had my 03 and COE

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Old 05-30-2018, 9:06 AM
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As a side note, I found the decision fascinating and have copied it to File. The wording in many of the arguments and conclusions can easily apply to the Federal C&R regulations relating to SBR's. If DOJ rejects my application of registration of my certified C&R, SBR I intend to fight it...
Wonder if it's something that C. Michel & Associates would take on...?
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Old 05-30-2018, 10:57 AM
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Important Notice
This includes Curio and Relic type firearms and firearms identified on the roster of handguns
certified for sale in the state of California
So what about Intrafamiliar transfers? Exempt handguns?
Did they just leave if off on accident?
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Old 05-30-2018, 11:06 AM
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So what about Intrafamiliar transfers? Exempt handguns?
Did they just leave if off on accident?
This bulliten was specificly specifying the procedure to sell guns to C&R/COE guys, becuase of the lawsuit Alvin Doe, et al. v. Attorney General Xavier Becerra, et al.

As for the intrafamiliar transfers its a little different.

As per the last DOJ webinar, they said register them as exempt, and check 30 day exempt.

I jus registered a 21 gun transaction like that from a woman's father in Montana, and the DOJ actually called me and asked about it, I told them it was intrafamiliar intrestate, and with some explaining, they said A-OK and approved it.
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  #32  
Old 05-30-2018, 1:27 PM
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I went out to lunch to test this and it worked. First customer @ the store to try out the recent DOJ DES memo.

Cash and Carried a brand new roster gun from the LGS. I only had my valid: C&R, COE, CA CCW.

I love the no 10 day wait, the most.


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Old 05-30-2018, 1:46 PM
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I went out to lunch to test this and it worked. First customer @ the store to try out the recent DOJ DES memo.

Cash and Carried a brand new roster gun from the LGS. I only had my valid: C&R, COE, CA CCW.

I love the no 10 day wait, the most.


Out freaking standing!

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Old 05-30-2018, 2:27 PM
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Man, I sure hope that FFL knows what they are doing. Like I said, I did ask my Rep and she said yea its exempt, BUT I really have a hard time seeing that being a DOJs actual opinion, because the PC still does actually say the firearm must be C&R to be exempt, not the transaction.

Gods speed to the guys that go out on a limb lol
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Old 05-30-2018, 2:45 PM
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Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
Man, I sure hope that FFL knows what they are doing. Like I said, I did ask my Rep and she said yea its exempt, BUT I really have a hard time seeing that being a DOJs actual opinion, because the PC still does actually say the firearm must be C&R to be exempt, not the transaction.

Gods speed to the guys that go out on a limb lol
And the bulletin doesn't address the 10 day wait.. just the 1-30 day exemption...so there's nothing in writing (yet) that says modern are exempt from 10 day wait..
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Old 05-30-2018, 2:51 PM
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There is STILL a waiting period for modern firearms. I think it is a BIG mistake for a dealer to not do the waiting period and it is also a big mistake to advertise it on a public forum. Given the time, the actual DROS number can be found.and then track down the dealer.
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Old 05-30-2018, 2:52 PM
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And the bulletin doesn't address the 10 day wait.. just the 1-30 day exemption...so there's nothing in writing (yet) that says modern are exempt from 10 day wait..
The Bulletin does tell you to DROS said modern firearm as a C&R and put collector in the waiting period exemption. Making it 10 day exempt. I don't know why they just don't tell you to DROS as normal and check the 30 day exempt box. Since they want you to keep copies of the C&R and COE whats the issue.
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Old 05-30-2018, 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by REDHORSE View Post
I went out to lunch to test this and it worked. First customer @ the store to try out the recent DOJ DES memo.

Cash and Carried a brand new roster gun from the LGS. I only had my valid: C&R, COE, CA CCW.

I love the no 10 day wait, the most.


Excellent! Did you bring the original FFL03 and COE with you, or just copies?
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Old 05-30-2018, 3:00 PM
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And the bulletin doesn't address the 10 day wait.. just the 1-30 day exemption...so there's nothing in writing (yet) that says modern are exempt from 10 day wait..
The way that they instructed you to register the modern guns to be exempt from the 1/30 AUTOMATICALLY exempt you from the 10 day (in the DROS ENTRY SYSTEM). But I have a sneaking supposition that the DOJ will say LEGALLY you must still hold modern guns for the 10 days, even though the deliver now button is there, and the earliest delivery date will match the purchase date.

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Old 05-30-2018, 3:37 PM
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The way that they instructed you to register the modern guns to be exempt from the 1/30 AUTOMATICALLY exempt you from the 10 day (in the DROS ENTRY SYSTEM). But I have a sneaking supposition that the DOJ will say LEGALLY you must still hold modern guns for the 10 days, even though the deliver now button is there, and the earliest delivery date will match the purchase date.

Yup... I use the Peace Officer Non-Roster Handgun Sale option for all off roster LEO sales.., but only release < 10 days if they have a letter (as it states).

My guess is if they keep up the same system they'll modify the text on the C&R page to be similar to LEO:
Waiting Period Exemption
PEACE OFFICER (LETTER REQUIRED)

Maybe it'll say:
C&R Guns Only or something under the waiting period exemption..
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