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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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#41
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I liked the equal protection argument with the county allowing the Scottish games to bring firearms on site
They really gave no good defense in that as they dont allow the gun show to bring in firearms with the same rules (keeping them secure) One of the memorable things I remember is when the county mentioned that the gun show would bring "hundreds of thousands of guns"
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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson |
#42
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Their problem probably was that they thought they were being reasonable, so they forgot what reasonable is in the wide world out there.
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DiaHero Foundation - helping people manage diabetes. Sending diabetes supplies to Ukraine now, any help is appreciated. DDR AK furniture and Norinco M14 parts kit: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1756292 |
#43
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They have delusions of grandeur. It's Alameda County, not Las Vegas or Reno
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DiaHero Foundation - helping people manage diabetes. Sending diabetes supplies to Ukraine now, any help is appreciated. DDR AK furniture and Norinco M14 parts kit: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1756292 |
#44
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Quote:
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It is dangerous to be right when your government is wrong. -Voltaire Good people sleep peaceably in their bed at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. |
#45
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well hopefully next year at the Alameda county fairgrounds gun show we can bring in the hundreds of thousands he spoke of
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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson |
#46
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I also wondered why they thought it was ok to have the participants in the games carry guns while the participants in the gun show could not
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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson |
#48
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Hmmm maybe I heard it wrong then
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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson |
#49
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That's how I hear it too....far less funny though.
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#50
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Noooo! I need to save for a house!
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DiaHero Foundation - helping people manage diabetes. Sending diabetes supplies to Ukraine now, any help is appreciated. DDR AK furniture and Norinco M14 parts kit: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1756292 |
#51
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Quote:
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"This we'll defend"- U.S. Army Motto "I declare to you that woman must not depend upon the protection of man, but must be taught to protect herself, and there I take my stand." --Susan B. Anthony (1820-1906), speech in San Franscisco, July 1871 NRA Life Member |
#52
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Forgive my ignorance. What is Scottish Games?
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DiaHero Foundation - helping people manage diabetes. Sending diabetes supplies to Ukraine now, any help is appreciated. DDR AK furniture and Norinco M14 parts kit: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1756292 |
#53
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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson |
#54
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OMG, first I think men look very sexy in kilts. But, the scottish games are pretty much just that. Men and women have athletic competitions, and there are dancing competitions, and lots of bagpipes. It's like anyone who claims to be scottish goes there every year. I went two years ago with some friends because their daughter played the bagpipes for Upland High School. Oh and for those of you who love scotch, there is a whiskey tasting the night before.
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"This we'll defend"- U.S. Army Motto "I declare to you that woman must not depend upon the protection of man, but must be taught to protect herself, and there I take my stand." --Susan B. Anthony (1820-1906), speech in San Franscisco, July 1871 NRA Life Member |
#55
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Men in skirts from San Francisco, why does that not surprise me?
I can see why whiskey tasting is needed the night before.
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DiaHero Foundation - helping people manage diabetes. Sending diabetes supplies to Ukraine now, any help is appreciated. DDR AK furniture and Norinco M14 parts kit: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1756292 |
#56
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The experience today of going to the courthouse was fantastic. I have not been before to an oral argument deciding a constitutional issue. The calgunners were present in large numbers and well-dressed.
The judge's questioning of both attorneys was thoughtful, and both attorney's responded adeptly. The plaintiff (Don) was well-prepared and responded well to all questions. The defendant got slightly flustered at one point as he seemed to be cornered by his own argument. And at another point he provoked some slight mockery from one of the judges who said, "It seems strange to me that, to say that you can have a gun show without the showing of guns," which elicited laughter from the gallery. The defendant responded, "Good point," and, "The sale could be consummated there and perhaps the individual could view the firearm immediately off the government property." I can just imagine people leaving the gun show to retire to a van parked on the street nearby to effect a firearms sale. REALLY?!?! They find this idea preferable to a safely organized and secured gun show? Having no experience with trials like this, I cannot venture to reliably predict the outcome, but going only by what I witnessed I would say that it appears that we have a very good shot of winning on the point of the suit regarding the prohibition of gun shows. On the broader objective of attaining incorporation for the Heller decision to the state, I would say it appears there were significant hurdles to overcome in making that case to the judges' satisfaction. That's not to say it couldn't happen, but it might depend on how willing the judges are to be bold and make a name for themselves. I think incorporation of Heller clearly and inevitably should be applied, but in this case, regarding gun shows on county property, there were significant points in the arguments where it appeared that this case simply may not closely enough hit upon the legal territory addressed by Heller to be able to draw a conclusive connection and apply that case here. Nonetheless, Don made the most persuasive arguments to that end that I could imagine based on the facts in the case. We'll see! Thanks to the CalGunners for getting the word out on this and organizing our mass presence. We filled the main courtroom and the overflow courtroom and apparently even had a few in the second overflow in the cafeteria. |
#57
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Looks pretty tough. Hmm, when I was throwing those logs as a kid, little did I know it was my Scottish ancestry manifesting itself. Oh wait, I don't have any
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DiaHero Foundation - helping people manage diabetes. Sending diabetes supplies to Ukraine now, any help is appreciated. DDR AK furniture and Norinco M14 parts kit: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1756292 |
#58
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Oh well, back to the waiting game. 3 months isn't that long a wait, considering. Let's hope it'll be worth the wait.
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DiaHero Foundation - helping people manage diabetes. Sending diabetes supplies to Ukraine now, any help is appreciated. DDR AK furniture and Norinco M14 parts kit: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1756292 |
#59
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I've never heard oral arguments in a trial like this before but what I found interesting was when one of the judges kept drilling down the path to find some way for the gun show to be conducted with the current restriction. It almost seemed as if he wanted our side to provide that plan and then have the county fairgrounds review it. Although, we're right back at the argument of how can you have a gunshow without guns...
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#60
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Just got back to the hotel - today was a good day.
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- Ben Cannon. Chairman, CEO - GPal, Inc.â„¢ CoFounder - GeoVarioâ„¢, LLC. - the hosting company that brings you Calgunsâ„¢ Postings are my own, and are not formal positions of any other entity, or legal advice. |
#61
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You used to be able to get them at the hardware store.
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Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace. -- James Madison The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (Pearce and Hale, eds., Boston, 1850) |
#62
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That probably killed their case.
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Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace. -- James Madison The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (Pearce and Hale, eds., Boston, 1850) |
#63
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A dumb question...with all the hubub about not wanting to "sell" the gun on public property. Are these gun shows 11 days or longer? With relatively few exceptions, when you give a merchant money at a gun at a gun show for a weapon, you aren't going to take possession of said weapon until at least 10 24 hour periods later, which unless the gun show is 11 days or longer, means the gun wouldn't ever be possessed on county property. Did anyone point that out to the boy genius on the anti's side?
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#64
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Wow, so bummed I missed it but happy to hear the details.
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"Good friends, good food & good wine. Anything else is just a waste of soy sauce.":) Last edited by WokMaster1; 01-16-2009 at 6:34 AM.. |
#65
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Quote:
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Rest in Peace - Andrew Breitbart. A true student of Alinsky. 90% of winning is simply showing up. "Let's not lose sight of how much we reduced our carbon footprint by telecommuting this protest." 383green NRA Benefactor Member |
#66
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While I couldn't make it in person, I enjoyed listening to the audio recording. I don't understand a lot of the legal details that were brought up well enough to form a strong opinion about whether the court will choose to address the incorporation issue, and how it'll rule if it does.
The county seemed to make a reasonable argument against the due process claim, in that (they claim) the Scottish Games folks confine firearm possession to designated participants. However, I think they shot their own public safety argument in the foot with the unfortunate (for them!) suggestion about having gun show participants wander off the property to fondle the guns. If I were judging this, and even if I bought into the bogus assertion that having guns at a gun show makes it dangerous, I think I'd consider the county's stance to have a detrimental effect on public safety by encouraging the gun show to operate such that the public wanders out to the surrounding community to inspect guns and conduct transactions, rather than doing so in the controlled and monitored gun show facility. I didn't get the impression that the judge who asked about the right to keep and bear arms implying a right to buy them was very satisfied with the county's response. If the judges decide that the case warrants examination of incorporation and/or Second Amendment issues, I think that the county's assertion that there is no right to buy firearms will not help their cause. It seemed to me that the judges grilled Kilmer pretty hard, but he held up well. I did not get the impression that they were particularly biased for or against his argument; it just seemed like they were making him do his homework and support his claims. Well, I sure hope that they decide to rule on the incorporation issue, and that they determine that the Second Amendment applies to the states! I also hope that they rule to allow the Nordykes to hold their gun show on county property. If I understand this stuff correctly, they might rule against the Nordykes in this case yet still incorporate the Second Amendment, or they might rule for the Nordykes while ruling against incorporation (or not ruling on incorporation at all). I wonder whether the aftermath of this case might help in some way to return the Great Western show to Pomona? I miss that huge show. |
#67
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[Mailorder sales of a product do avoid some of this but most mailorder houses (Amazon) etc have very good return policies. Most guns cannot, by contrast, be returned as new and an immediate replacement is not allowed (new DROS, new serial# etc.)]
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. Last edited by bwiese; 01-16-2009 at 7:42 AM.. |
#68
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I don't know if anyone shares my opinion, but I wouldn't be suprised if they sent it back to the lower court so that the complaints can be amended and it all be argued again.
This is the 9th circuit, they may just sidestep...
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#69
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darn, that's a good question!
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NRA Life Member |
#70
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I appreciate your pun, but seriously the opposition was out-classed. My impression is that they were so encumbered by dogma that it significantly hindered their defense. At one point the Alameda Counsel was at a loss for words, trapped in a conflict between where the Judge's questions were leading and where his "theology" dictated he must go. "Deer in the headlights" comes to mind.
Our side did many things very well; one of those things was what I'll call the parry. Don would rarely make a direct dispute to the Judge's assertions, but instead redirected them to where he wanted them to go. A fascinating experience, followed by a fine dinner with good company.
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"An unarmed man can only flee from evil. And evil is not overcome by fleeing from it" - Col. Jeff Cooper "Shot placement trumps all." |
#71
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And Sears and many other department stores. I purchased one of my first rifles at a Fedco (membership dept. store) in San Diego (Actually my father purchased it, he just let me pay for it!) I guess it could have been a "straw purchase" by todays standards. Back then it was just a "rite of passage."
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"As soon as we burn 'em," Chinn said, "more come in." Ignatius Chinn, a FORMER veteran firearms agent. CONTRA COSTA TIMES 03/04/2008 "please guys please no ridiculous offers....Im a girl, not an idiot" Mistisa242 |
#72
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That made me smile from ear to ear. The look on his face must have been priceless. I was wondering if he was just going to give up at that point.
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#73
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Also, dozens of vans full of weapons parked across the street from the fairgrounds (off county property) would make a juicy target for thieves. |
#74
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It was a very good experience, very glad I went.
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WTB: SWISS & German police trade in pistols WTB: German made & proofed SIG P226R & P228R WTB: Factory cutaway pistols & rifles WTB: LAPD Ithaca M37 / CHP S&W / Other PD trade ins.... |
#75
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#76
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It was nice to get to meet so many of you. Alas I'm so bad with names I'm already having a hard time reconnecting who I met with the CalGuns aliases here. Now if everyone would just put mugshots in their avatars I'd be good!
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#77
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Done
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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson |
#78
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I wasn't present at the argument or dinner, but I do look just like my avatar...
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#79
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Mmmm, Fedco Pizza
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#80
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40 years ago, the fates of the gun owners of the western coast states were tied together by events in Sacramento, CA in 1967.
I live in Washington State, I chose to attend this gather due to multiple factors. 1) 9th Circuit Court of Appeals encompasses Washington and Oregon, as well as my birth state of Arizona. What happens in California effects us up here. 2) Quite frankly, the Calguns folks are smart, sure of themselves, and have damned good plans. 3) Being able to sit down during the in between of the hearing and dinner, and then the after dinner conversation is worth more than the plane ticket down. 4) The two Dons are awesome, as well as Bruce Colodny. 5) I think I was the only one there from out of state at the dinner. I am currently typing on the CalTrain to San Francisco, flying back to Seattle 9:30PM flight today. I will be in San Fran, anyone else interested in meeting? |
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