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FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs. |
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#2
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I will put in my take. What type of sale? If it is a consignment gun sale I do not think there is any problem. If it is a PPT sale,there is no problem. If it is an off roster SSE sale,to my knowledge,there is not a problem,but DOJ has never came out and said SSE sales are legal or prohibited. The take I have on it is that it is legal. But that is not to say that the DOJ may change it's mind,or a new law may come out to change it.
I am not sure if a Dros sale of an exempt gun to a non-LEO will cause a delay in the transaction or not. I would think a incorrect sale would cause problems to the dealer from DOJ. DOJ also might to action to take the gun back from the customer. |
#3
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I heard of a case where a FFL sold, not a PPT (consignments can be transferred as a PPT), firearm which was not on the certified list, the firearm had to be returned. I don't recall more, but somehow the DOJ found out. I am not sure that the customer could be forced to return it, but who knows.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#6
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#7
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If the firearm is converted to a single shot, meeting the dimension requirements, then it would also be exempt, which would not be required to be a PPT.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#8
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It happens...
Chances are the FFL makes an error and DROS an "off-list" model as an different (but similar) rostered model. This would not be discovered unless the DOJ did their audit during the 10 day waiting period. After that the gun in gone (to the buyer) and the paperwork shows the sale of a rostered handgun.
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#9
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#10
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It is very easy to make a mistake and select the wrong firearm or think that it actually was on the list.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#11
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#12
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Did you see the DROS to see how exactly it was transferred and what it was claimed to be on the DROS form?
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#13
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And what exactly did it show?
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#14
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We just had an inspection, our first with DOJ. Boss accidentally dicked up a DROS for an off-roster gun that was bought out of state by the customer. Thru his "not totally computer savvy" methods, ended up DROSing it "C&R" because there was no other way he could find to enter the gun information.
Didn't realize that used hanguns are subject to the roster without one of the exemptions. In the eyes of DOJ this is no trivial matter, and we were told that the gun would be collected from the buyer. Not good.... Had we done this on purpose, it's grounds for losing a license. We were also told by DOJ that they are following SSEs VERY CLOSELY. He did not really comment on the legality, but indicated that those FFLs that do them, had better not get caught UNDOING them. I'd like more information, but it pretty much scared us off trying to do any SSEs. CM |
#15
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The FFL can modify the firearm AFTER it has been transferred (out the door). There is no law preventing that, but then again there is really no law preventing law enforcement from harassing you :-).
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#16
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That being said, based on the story above it sounds like your boss needs to figure out how to do the basics before moving on to services like SSE handgun transfers.
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#17
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OP is now running scared...editing the OP and deleting subsequent posts...the black helicopters have arrived.
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#18
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I will have to research it in more detail. Well, you're right, but that's why I'm here (part-time) is to keep paperwork clean. We are still learning, as most starter-FFLs do. Won't be boss for much longer, we are entering the planning phase for our shops and he has realized that he needs me to keep out of jail and I won't do it for simple pay. I was suprised to hear that DOJ would be sending someone to collect that weapon. Seeing how it would be exempt via PPT we were gobsmacked that it needed to be on the list. Since the company is not in business, I guess they never will be from here forward..... CM |
#19
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1- SSE's 2- High capacity magazine 'rebuild' kits 3- Law Enforcement buying multiple off roster in any regularity. |
#20
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I've been meaning to post a write-up about our inspection, I'll try to finish it tomorrow. We have been in biz for 2.5 years, we were suprised it took so long to get DOJ over there... Anyway, those were the 3 things he said were heavily on the radar. not *really* sure what that means - if it's legal then it's legal, right? Or not... Our plan is to not do those things with regularity. I won't say never, because I don't believe in black/white for everything.... If anyone has ever been hassled for SSE I'd like to know what happened and why.. CM |
#21
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There is also the BATF issues with SSE with regards to manufacturing, which is unclear, at best.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#22
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Ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law, but I think since we really tried to do everything else right, this will end in leniency. I'm sure the customer will be madder than a hornet, and that really sucks as I'm sure in some circles our reputation will be besmirched. But in the end, it's the state of CA doing the screwing. Only thing he can blame us with is doing the DROS wrong. He'd have been angry at us no matter what, since had we known we couldn't DROS the weapon he would have had to find a way to sell it to get his ducketts back. Lose, lose, lose. Everybody loses. CM |
#23
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Hmmmm, it is not really the state of CA doing the screwing, except in terms of the law. In this case, a mistake was made and the law was not followed. To blame CA in this case is much like blaming the police for getting a speeding ticket.
Yes, the customer would have been upset if they could not get it transferred, but it much worse that the transfer was done and now he might have to give it back. I suspect it is used now as well. If you can find a place to convert it properly to a Single Shot, then he would be able to get it back. For some strange reason the bain of my existence is the M57. Many places claim that it is a C&R, but that is only if it was made over 50 years ago, but many of those were not. Many places are selling them claiming that it is a C&R when that is not the case. The selling FFL is not happy to learn that it is not actually a C&R and can't understand why they were told it was.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#24
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You misunderstand me. I'm not blaming the state for anything but the law, I sure don't blame them for our screw up.
I may like to blame them though for not better explaining the entire CFD process, in laymens' terms, with examples of whats right and what's wrong instead of expecting us all to be lawyers to interpret the law. They've made it nebulous on purpose, so we CAN blame them for that. We would much rather have caught this up front and saved the customer's money. He may be a jerk but having him lose like this will only hurt us. FYI, the gun is used and old. Were it something recent, I suppose we'd never have assumed we could sell it not being on the list. Anyway, chalking it up to ignorance and inexperience, it sure won't happen again and I'm hoping that by posting the details here it will save someone else from having the same problem. CM |
#25
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You said:
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I don't think that they made it nebulous on purpose, that is just the way the government does things (elected idiots, etc.). If a FFL does something because they don't understand what they are doing, then it is their fault. Yes, the laws are often hard to understand, as well as all the policies, but if you don't understand then you need to get help or not do it. In this case, the firearm was not on the certified list and was not exempt, that is pretty clear. It is not the fault of the government if a FFL just attempts to find a way to get around things instead of understanding that the firearm can not be transferred. The bottom line is that if you don't know, don't do it and find out what the answer is.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#27
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It the laws were purposely vague, that would mean that they gave enough thought to do that, but based on what I have seen, I don't think that they put much thought into anything they do. I think you are giving them far more credit then they deserve.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#28
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It the laws were purposely vague, that would mean that they gave enough thought to do that, but based on what I have seen, I don't think that they put much thought into anything they do. I think you are giving them far more credit then they deserve.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
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