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  #1  
Old 06-27-2020, 7:14 AM
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Default If you can have a SBS, what is your ideal barrel length?

Haven’t been in the shotgun realm for years, but now I’m curious.

If SBS were possible, what would your ideal shotgun barrel length be? Mainly for range use up to 100 yd, tactical classes, etc. No trap or skeet.

Are there ballistics considerations?


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Old 06-27-2020, 11:14 AM
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Most I've seen are 14".

Any shorter and the magazine has to be shorter as well and that cuts down on your rounds on board.

Go here and you can see some that were done by Hans Vang, Police Shotgun Guru of some Renown. https://www.vangcomp.com/gunsmithing/

He also does some 12.5 " barrels but I think 14" is more common.

You can do the same thing to Mossbergs. I'd love to have one for Home Defense, but NOooo !

These aren't legal for civilians to own. NFA and all.

Randy
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Old 06-27-2020, 12:25 PM
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16 inches is a good balance in capacity and spread

you see the 14 inchers on "other firearms" where they are at or over 26 inches oal

the 3 shot dinkies have too much recoil they hurt like a 44 magnum (sorry i'm a wimp)

Last edited by bohoki; 06-27-2020 at 12:30 PM..
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Old 06-27-2020, 1:19 PM
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Beanz, I'm not sure what kind of "range work" you have in mind if not trap or skeet, since shotguns are intended for moving targets. 100 yards is extreme range for any shotgun shooting shot, even full barrel length ones. Not so bad for the right slugs. So you are going to use slugs on stationary targets?

Your easiest and cheapest route to an SBS, assuming you live in a state where you can have one, is to start from a "non-NFA firearm" pump like a Mossberg Shockwave or Remington Tac-14. These both have 14 inch barrels. All you have to do after you your tax stamp comes through and receiver is engraved is put on the stock of your choice. No hacksaw. The Mossberg has 5+1 capacity, the Remington 4+1, unless you get the wood furniture, which is 5+1 for some reason I don't understand. You can get the Remington down to 12.5 inches before you get to he barrel lug and hit major complications. You might be able to shave the mossberg down to 13.5 if you're itching to get the hacksaw out.

Of course, you asked for "best" not "easiest." Living in California, I don't have much experience of SBS's. From what I have read, with shot you lose less muzzle velocity than you would think, but of course your pattern opens up as you go shorter. I would think slugs would suffer more in accuracy from a shorter barrel. For a tactical gun, capacity loss is going to be a big issue. Please cut one off inch by inch and let us know!
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Old 06-27-2020, 2:25 PM
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I’d probably hover around 14-16” to be honest.
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Old 06-27-2020, 3:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Haven’t been in the shotgun realm for years, but now I’m curious.

If SBS were possible, what would your ideal shotgun barrel length be? Mainly for range use up to 100 yd, tactical classes, etc. No trap or skeet.

Are there ballistics considerations?
You’re trading maneuverability and weight for round count more than round effectivity / ballistics

I have an M4 with an 18.5” barrel which translates to 7+1 on the lifter (empty chamber hammer down) which I’ve taken through a couple shotgun courses. It’s a really good shotgun. I’ve not had the opportunity to try a 14” version which brings you down to 5+1 at the savings of 4” and about 0.6 lb (if you include two rounds of buckshot) but otherwise would function the same.

Shorter than 14” and I would think you’d start having to make changes to your light position and support hand grip position, so the trade-offs grow. I don’t know that I would bother exploring that territory.
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Old 06-27-2020, 7:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
Most I've seen are 14".

Any shorter and the magazine has to be shorter as well and that cuts down on your rounds on board.

Go here and you can see some that were done by Hans Vang, Police Shotgun Guru of some Renown. https://www.vangcomp.com/gunsmithing/

He also does some 12.5 " barrels but I think 14" is more common.

You can do the same thing to Mossbergs. I'd love to have one for Home Defense, but NOooo !

These aren't legal for civilians to own. NFA and all.

Randy
Thanks, Randy. Legal where I am, with the right paperwork.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SandHill View Post
Beanz, I'm not sure what kind of "range work" you have in mind if not trap or skeet, since shotguns are intended for moving targets. 100 yards is extreme range for any shotgun shooting shot, even full barrel length ones. Not so bad for the right slugs. So you are going to use slugs on stationary targets?

Your easiest and cheapest route to an SBS, assuming you live in a state where you can have one, is to start from a "non-NFA firearm" pump like a Mossberg Shockwave or Remington Tac-14. These both have 14 inch barrels. All you have to do after you your tax stamp comes through and receiver is engraved is put on the stock of your choice. No hacksaw. The Mossberg has 5+1 capacity, the Remington 4+1, unless you get the wood furniture, which is 5+1 for some reason I don't understand. You can get the Remington down to 12.5 inches before you get to he barrel lug and hit major complications. You might be able to shave the mossberg down to 13.5 if you're itching to get the hacksaw out.

Of course, you asked for "best" not "easiest." Living in California, I don't have much experience of SBS's. From what I have read, with shot you lose less muzzle velocity than you would think, but of course your pattern opens up as you go shorter. I would think slugs would suffer more in accuracy from a shorter barrel. For a tactical gun, capacity loss is going to be a big issue. Please cut one off inch by inch and let us know!
Range work for me means classes. Front Sight, my main gun school, prevents students from taking certain upper level classes unless they have aced their handgun, rifle and shotgun classes. Weird reasoning, but it works as far as limiting the amount of students getting into these classes.

While some people have aced their shotgun class with pumps, many students recommend getting a semi-auto for a better experience (and chance of ace-ing the class)

It makes a lot of sense to build a SBS from a non-NFA firearm as you said, 80% of my SBRs are made from pistols.

Quote:
Originally Posted by champu View Post
You’re trading maneuverability and weight for round count more than round effectivity / ballistics

I have an M4 with an 18.5” barrel which translates to 7+1 on the lifter (empty chamber hammer down) which I’ve taken through a couple shotgun courses. It’s a really good shotgun. I’ve not had the opportunity to try a 14” version which brings you down to 5+1 at the savings of 4” and about 0.6 lb (if you include two rounds of buckshot) but otherwise would function the same.

Shorter than 14” and I would think you’d start having to make changes to your light position and support hand grip position, so the trade-offs grow. I don’t know that I would bother exploring that territory.
Thank you. This shotgun newbie didn't think of shortening the barrel would have an effect on capacity, but it makes a lot of sense. I'm too used to removable magazines. Maneuverability is in my mind, though I haven't taken the class I was referring to above.

So, from the magazine capacity standpoint, does building a SBS from a magazine-fed shotgun or pistol be a better route, then?


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Old 06-27-2020, 7:34 PM
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I knew a gun building Saiga with 8-14” barrels.

Nothing says fun like a 12 round stick mag of 3” OO buck being shot inside a home from a 12” shotgun

To the best of my memory, they never chronographed the class 3 weapons.

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Old 06-27-2020, 7:42 PM
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I found this elsewhere

That 8" siaga ran a 3" magnum slug load at 1075. Said load was factory rated at 1400. So even with the gas system taking some, and the short barrel, there was still plenty of steam.
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Old 06-27-2020, 7:51 PM
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hPss4orcYRI


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Old 06-27-2020, 7:59 PM
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The Benelli Entry model is 14" if that's any indication. I don't know if they still make it, I think it was based on the M1. I'd look at factory models first.
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Old 06-27-2020, 8:19 PM
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That is so cool

Tempting, but my Saiga-12 is a BBRAW in CA and making it an SBS means it'll never be able to return ever.


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Old 06-27-2020, 8:24 PM
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The Benelli Entry model is 14" if that's any indication. I don't know if they still make it, I think it was based on the M1. I'd look at factory models first.
There you go, trying to spend my money again.


I just did a search based on your post. Nice looking gun. Sigh, maybe someday.


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Old 06-27-2020, 8:39 PM
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Beanz, maybe not as badass as a Saiga, but easier to find. Remington makes a semi auto "non NFA firearm" with a 13 inch barrel that would be a god start for an SBS: https://www.remington.com/other-products/v3-tac-13

They made one with a detachable magazine, but I think it didn't sell well and they may not be making them any more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewd3IQcw_OQ

I'm not sure I would want to buy a Remington right now with another bankruptcy looming, but I think the Tac 14 in hardwood looks very badass, in a kind of old school, "Witness Protection" way:

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Old 06-27-2020, 8:48 PM
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Yeah, that Tac-14 is a good looking gun.

Any "non NFA firearms" that are semi-auto?

I hear you about Remington. Here I am thinking of my soon-orphaned Bushmaster ACR.


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Old 06-27-2020, 9:04 PM
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I think 12.5 to 14.
We had 14" 870s at Quantico that were great handling. That was my intro into running tactical shotguns and I really fell in love with the 870.
They were old well used and beat wood stock and forend but just worked!
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Old 06-27-2020, 9:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Yeah, that Tac-14 is a good looking gun.

Any "non NFA firearms" that are semi-auto?

I hear you about Remington. Here I am thinking of my soon-orphaned Bushmaster ACR.


.
Yes, first part of my last post. Remington V3 Tac 13.
Beanz, maybe not as badass as a Saiga, but easier to find. Remington makes a semi auto "non NFA firearm" with a 13 inch barrel that would be a god start for an SBS: https://www.remington.com/other-products/v3-tac-13

They made one with a detachable magazine, but I think it didn't sell well and they may not be making them any more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewd3IQcw_OQ
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Old 06-28-2020, 8:59 AM
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18.5 seems pretty good to me. I'm happy with that.
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Old 06-28-2020, 9:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Thanks, Randy. Legal where I am, with the right paperwork.

Range work for me means classes. Front Sight, my main gun school, prevents students from taking certain upper level classes unless they have aced their handgun, rifle and shotgun classes. Weird reasoning, but it works as far as limiting the amount of students getting into these classes. It also works to keep people who don't really have the shooting part down as well as they should.

While some people have aced their shotgun class with pumps, many students recommend getting a semi-auto for a better experience (and chance of ace-ing the class).
The key to Acing the Shotgun Class is to go to several. There are all kinds of little techniques you can pick up along the way that make running the gun easier and faster. Economy of Motion is key to making the time limits. It also helps to get the Shotgun Dry Practice Manual which has the test in it so you can practice at home.

I have been to 4, 2 Day Classes with no test and 1, 4 Day Class that I shot 13 and just missed DG by 1 point. The 4 day class was #3 .

By Class #3 I had my M500 sussed out and it didn't beat me like classes 1 and 2. The kicker for pump guns is the multiple target iteration. I can get 2 and 3 every time, however on 4 I am always about .2 late.
For those who don't know, you get 1.7 seconds for 2 targets 2.1 for 3 and 2.7 for 4.

Also you have to get everyone of the 6 Select Slug Shots as they are -5 for each one.

This is hard with a pump gun unless you stance is perfect as you will get pushed back on your heels which slows your racking down. Mind you it is not impossible, and I will do it.

One last thing,,, You have got to get your gun set up right so it doesn't fight you. The only way to get this right is to use the thing over the course of several days, or in some intense drilling situation so you can find all the little hot spots, and things poking into you and things you don't like that take your attention away from shooting and put it on to"annoyance mitigation." The gun has to hang right off the Sling, because it will be hanging off the Sling at least 50% of the time while you're on the line. The Recoil Pad needs to do it's job properly,and you need it placed ion the proper spot in your shoulder pocket or else you won't get down on the gun and it will beat the snot out of you! Your ammo needs to be soft shooting and feed right, (Walmart Federal) You've got to be able to get in and out of the sling smoothly and easily so you can rack the gun and put it back on, which you will do literally hundreds of times at a class. It took me 3 classes to get mine completely figured out. and by Class #3 I had the Vang Comp Process done to the barrel and it made a huge difference in the way the gun recoiled and shot. In fact it made the most notable biggest difference of anything done to that gun. even the instructors who shot the gun could tell in one or two shots! www.vangcomp.com



In Class #4 I shot my newly built Browning Auto 5. Since I already knew all the drills and I had practiced Port Loading and Select Slugs, I was pretty good right out of the box however the gun is different than the M500's in recoil and general manipulation. Safety in a different place, and the shells have to go up into the magazine at a higher angle, but the Speed Feed Feature makes the Empty gun much faster to load.



There is one Port Loading drill where you start with an empty gun, load one fire, load one fire, and load one more and hold. I was done before most guys on the line had fired their second shot. The Speed Feed is that much faster. Everybody else had to Port Load their Pump Guns or M 4's.

The only way for me to DG that class is to either go to a 2 Day Skill Builder or a 4 Day Class. The regular 2 Day Class is just the first two days of a 4 Day Class. and there is no test.

But I can easily DG that class with my A5, and probably do it with the M500's too now.

Once you really get the hang of running a Tactical Shotgun you wonder why you need a Rifle or Pistol.

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Old 06-28-2020, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
There you go, trying to spend my money again.


I just did a search based on your post. Nice looking gun. Sigh, maybe someday.


.
LOL, my post was poorly worded. I meant look at factory models from Remington, Beretta, etc. As I mentioned, the Entry model, at least the M1-based one, is probably not made any more. If you don't mind a pump, the Remington 870 is not real expensive. The Benelli Nova is about $550.

Oop, I just looked, it looks like the Entry model is M4 based now. Big bucks.
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Old 06-28-2020, 3:23 PM
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BTW, if you want to make one from a Mossberg Shockwave, better hope Trump wins. The going price on gunbroker is nearly 600 bucks and probably won't come down until the election.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:46 PM
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PSA has some 870 tac 14 in stock on sale for $419
https://palmettostatearmory.com/remi...t=5%3a00+Email
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Old 06-30-2020, 1:13 PM
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Pre-cv they ran a rebate deal where they were like $220.
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Old 06-30-2020, 1:51 PM
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Old school Ithaca M37 like Tubbs in Miami Vice but I think that was shorter than 14".
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Old 06-30-2020, 1:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
That is so cool

Tempting, but my Saiga-12 is a BBRAW in CA and making it an SBS means it'll never be able to return ever.


.
One can always add to the barrel length.

It depends on how short you go

There is a dissapator with a 12” barrel and a 4.1” muzzle end to make the rifle at least 16”

Same with shotty- if you live in a free state - buy another Saiga to form 1/4

To make the shotgun an NFA item and then try to remove the NFA makes no financial sense
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Old 06-30-2020, 2:07 PM
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“WR
Once you really get the hang of running a Tactical Shotgun you wonder why you need a Rifle or Pistol.”


WR - glad you keep getting better shooting and training.


Why a rifle or a shotgun-

One can carry a Glock 19 and 2 spare G17 mags to the dentist or Costco
15,17,17

A rifle it’s easy to have 90 rounds

Shotguns have a limited capacity
Shotguns are bulky
Shotgun Ammo is very bulky.


If you stop and ask why does the .mil use an SBR when clearing homes...
The SBR gives more choices

If you see a police person with a handgun - it’s because they are easy to keep with you all day and everyday.
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Old 06-30-2020, 2:42 PM
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Old 06-30-2020, 4:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinny_land View Post
Old school Ithaca M37 like Tubbs in Miami Vice but I think that was shorter than 14".
His was a Wilson Witness Protection aow.
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Old 06-30-2020, 4:58 PM
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For Post_28 and the other post:
Apparently, both the Ithaca and converted Remington were used over the years in Miami Vice (the tv series):
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Miami_Vice...ca_37_Stakeout

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Miami_Vice..._Remington_870
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Old 06-30-2020, 11:54 PM
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W.R.Buchanan W.R.Buchanan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
“WR
Once you really get the hang of running a Tactical Shotgun you wonder why you need a Rifle or Pistol.”


WR - glad you keep getting better shooting and training.


Why a rifle or a shotgun-

One can carry a Glock 19 and 2 spare G17 mags to the dentist or Costco
15,17,17

A rifle it’s easy to have 90 rounds

Shotguns have a limited capacity
Shotguns are bulky
Shotgun Ammo is very bulky.


If you stop and ask why does the .mil use an SBR when clearing homes...
The SBR gives more choices

If you see a police person with a handgun - it’s because they are easy to keep with you all day and everyday.
All true, but If you saw the guy defending his home in St Louis with and AR and his wife wagging a pistol around, neither one had a clue how to use those guns. That woman couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and he was close behind.

With shotguns there would have been a much higher probability of hits for either one of them.

Pistols require much practice to achieve combat superiority. Rifles Require actually aiming at a specific point of the Targets Body. And that spot is going to be moving.

With Buckshot you are launching 9 rounds every time you pull the trigger.

With 9 rounds in the gun (8+1)= 81

Why do you think Police Cars all have a shotgun in them? They are easier to get hits with for people who don't get enough training with Rifles or Pistols.

And they are way more powerful and the variety of ammo can adapt them to many scenarios.

For room clearing or CQB there are SBS guns. But 18 or 20" shotguns are good to 100+ yards and sure you have to carry more ammo but that is not impossible.

Rifles shoot .223's and pistols are 9, 40, or .45. Only one choice of ammo for these guns. There aren't any Bean Bag Rounds or Rubber Bullets for rifles or pistols. NO 1 oz slugs or buckshot.

A Pistol and a Shotgun is another way to go?

That's some of the reasons.

Randy
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Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 06-30-2020 at 11:57 PM..
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