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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'. |
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#82
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I was with JSOC from 1981-83, which did get non-standard weapons, (though we had no choice in the matter) and our weapons were the MP5 and HK P7M8 with not an AR in sight. The Teams we worked with used quite a wide variety of weapons to meet mission needs. The rest of SOCOM, despite falling into "special ops", is much more regular military in their organization and weapons assignments. Last edited by Steve_In_29; 03-27-2013 at 7:58 PM.. |
#83
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And for the record there is nothing wrong with the AR that can't be cured with a few simple mods, i.e.: piston and .30cal cartridge. Though truth be told I MUCH prefer a straight stocked weapon over anything with a pistol grip.
IIRC the 6.8 dropped out of favor not due to money issues but to slowness in transitioning the round from a wildcat to a SAMMI spec'ed round. The Rem30AR would be a great round but with the loss of funding for entirely new rifles, if any new cartridge gets adopted it will most likely be the 300AAC as it would be by far the cheapest upgrade route for the military's current weapons. Due to the simple barrel change required. I have heard some rumblings that the Marines might be trying to correct some of the ARs short comings and also get back into the full-auto for everyone mode with the adoption of the HK416 as the M27 replacement for the SAW. I have had several Officers kind of wink when comments were made about why the loss of suppressive firepower was being tolerated. |
#84
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On the flipside, those in the procurement chain, and testing and evaluation at US SOCOM have a lot more at their disposal than non-SOF. In short, if there were a big enough problem with the legacy DI M-4, enough that they can say with empirical evidence is putting people at risk then they would have adopted something different. That did not happen. Rumors have it that the FN SCAR MK-16 has been set aside in favor of the M-4 block II. The big part is yes, budgetary because that pot of money comes from Big Army. The other part is simply that they feel they can make due with the legacy system because it's good enough. Some of you out there know first hand the immense budget of SOCOM and the power of their procurement system. They can get most things they want. If they had a severe need to replace all M-4s with something else they would have.
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#85
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Replacing a cartridge like the 6.8 would entail replace every upper receiver, every single magazine, bolt, etc. etc. in the entire DOD inventory. That wont happen until something really monumental comes along. Just logistically unfeasible at this time. So maybe for a smaller team that does not have all those luxuries 6.8 is the way to go for that niche. A cop on a patrol beat? Sure. OK, who?
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#86
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I do have a VERY good idea of the budgets involved as I was a plank holder in JSOC and saw first hand the money that was thrown at us and the leeway we had to buy and do pretty much anything we wanted. The largest portion of SOCOMs manpower comes from what are essentially regular military units, the Ranger Bns and I believe now MARSOC Marines. Even the (non-Team 6) SEALs and SOF are essentially regular units when compared to the Black side of SOCOM. All of which do not operate solely under SOCOM and thus still have to integrate with their respective parent branch's supply system. Even SOCOM's budget isn't able to fund re-equiping these units with a second set of weapons that they would then use ONLY when actually under SOCOM commanded operations. Only the units that fall under JSOC are under full time SOCOM command and these much smaller units are thus able to have relatively free reign (within some guidelines) to pick the weapons systems they need. No one said there was a "severe need" to replace the M4/M16 family, merely that it has room for improvement. Which was being addressed by the ARMY/Marines in the SCAR program. That program was subsequently cancelled (after a weapon was adopted) due to the immense cost to totally replace every AR platform in the military's inventory when the war funding started winding down. Had they finished procurement testing 10yrs ago our guys would have already said goodbye to their ARs. |
#87
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If I can only take one weapon I'm grabbing the M1 Garand, the wife will have the AK-74. I have PLENTY of ammo for both, a good number of mags for the 74 and a metric buttload of enblock clips for the Garand.
My thinking is that on a two person team, one AK-74 and one M1 Garand is darn near perfect. The 74 will be useful for quick engagement of multiple targets within 300 yards while the Garand will be quite useful out to 500 yards and beyond, and also for turning cover into concealment. Every bit of Garand ammo I would have on me would already be loaded in enblocks, no mags to worry about retaining or losing, the enblock ejects automatically and reloading can be done in seconds. This is my same philosophy for any BOL location. Garands and 74s, a good combination of heavy hitting, long range .30 caliber and the lighter controllable 5.45x39. Budget has played a big part in these decisions, service grade Garands are currently $650 from the CMP, and Greek .30-06 is around $115/200 delivered. So for the price of one M1A and ammo you can get 3 Garands and ammo. This is important if you plan on outfitting other members of a family, or have kids that will someday need good reliable guns of their own. Budget also played a major part in going with the AK74 as well. I went with the 74 back when 74 ammo was very cheap, and as a result was able to stock a comfortable amount of 5.45x39 I put a lot of thought into SHTF weaponry and that is what I came up with for primary armnament on my budget. Now, I'd like to eventually get an AR-15 or two also simply due to parts and ammo availability post SHTF, but I personally don't feel under gunned currently with Garands and 74s. |
#90
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#91
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We both start firing until a gun needs to be taken apart to be cleared. I know my AR can go into the 5K range before I need to pull the BCG.... been there done it many times. You guys worry too much about an easy sports jam. The AR15 has been used in combat for over 50 freaking years... get a clue. I know of a guy in a wheel chair because his M16A2 jammed and I know a guy who is alive because the other guys AK jammed. The guys in combat are not seeing these catastrophic failures you guys are worrying about. There are way more important things to worry about then an easy to clear random jam. |
#92
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My barrel gets punched with a boresnake after every 500 rounds or so to maintain the accuracy. I also have several people who own AR-15's and can attest to my AR-15 being one of the most accurate they have ever used, also one of the smoothest. The Bolt Carrier Group is a m16, the trigger costs $350.00, but has a very clean brake. The barrel has no brand, the lower I milled from a 80% and a few things have been smoothed with my buddy who has been a gunsmith for 20+ yrs. I got my shots within a circle of about 6" inches. each shot 3 inches or so apart. I practice with a Gamo Whisperer .22 Pellet Gun, transition to a .22 LR S&W M&P 15-22. Make some wind adjustments and Kentucky windage. Than I have ammo and can go out and really shoot, I use the .223/5.56. I like the .22 because the wind affects it far sooner than a .223/5.56 Iron Sites are my choice, just because its simple and as I transition I will buy a M40 with a 1/2 Inch MOA I will have to use glass, yes I did use a RCO with the Chevron but that RCO in the civilian world costs $1600.00. Just the $3500.00 price tag on the M40 plus buying glass and ammo is going to take just a few more pay checks and money from my GI Bill to get. And about the mags, they are ****ty aluminum mags. I can't be sure that they are specifically from the Army but we were told they we old army magazines that the Marine Corps basically got so deal with it and try to get some good ones.
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War, it has a smell, it tastes different, it takes a different kind of man, who runs towards gunfire and not away from it. Watch this and thank a veteran next time you see him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfrr3kxzJtU Last edited by LCpl Kutches; 03-28-2013 at 6:07 AM.. |
#93
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Fascinating. Go on...
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Please visit my firearms training website at http://www.stcrispian.com |
#94
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AK. If the thing needs to come apart in the field, the parts are bigger and less prone to getting lost. You'd be in some **** if the firing pin retaining pin in your AR got lost.
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PRO PELLE CUTEM "Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever"- Thomas Jefferson, 1785 Quote:
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#96
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Having both is better than only one. I try to have many calibers
....ps My 74s 5.45 makes a big mess of meat. My sons 5.56 reaches out real far Last edited by Russ Florian; 04-03-2013 at 2:13 PM.. |
#97
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You mentioned previously your team was armed with MP-5s and HK P7 M8s. Early 80's = cold war. All 9mm = within 100m and probably closer. I'm thinking Europe? Plain clothes or uniform? Did you learn to speak Russian? Continue...
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#98
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If the latter that's a very accurate AR. If the former it's what I used to do with my issue M16 on the Rifle Range with iron sights. At that distance my Saiga will put all shots within a 12" (chest sized) target but it only cost me roughly what your trigger did you. I am using an EOTech and multiplier though as my eyes aren't what they used to be. Quote:
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#99
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We were (and I would imagine still are) plain clothes/very-relaxed-grooming-standards, which really pissed people off when I needed to interface with the Marine Corps for administrative purposes and showed up looking like a civilian. Though I heard that need was eliminated later. My operational chain of command went from a Army Major to an Army General to the Joint Chiefs. We operated world wide and pretty much any place there was something going on where American interests were involved we had a team in place, though not always engaged. I didn't learn any languages as I was on one of the support side teams that would accompany the shooters to provide real time communications to higher headquarters. Not much more I can say since AFAIK I am still bound by my debriefing even though the Administration and several former operators have pretty much blown things open to the public. I can say it was a VERY exhilarating time in my life. |
#101
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AR. It's lighter, easier to fire, more acurate and can carry more ammo per pound. If you have a quality built rifle, decent ammo and do the basic proper maintenance it is every bit as reliable as an Ak. If something was to break an entire parts kit including a BCG is lighter than the hammer your gonna need to fix your Ak. There are also millions of them in private and public ownership and billions of rounds of ammo.
I've seen both weapons platforms break, jam and not work for a variety of issues. Bad ammo, bad mags, broken parts, dirty, lack of basic maintence, bad design, etc etc etc. If you do your part and start with known good parts, treat it well, feed it decent ammo and keep it relatively clean there is no reason it should break, jam or not work for 10's of thousands of rounds. If your firing enough ammo in a WROL or SHTF situation to break something in your rifle your doing something wrong! Your also sitting on a huge stockpile of ammunition for one gun!
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#103
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No, you get your ammo and I'll get mine and let's put $500 each in an escrow with someone from CALGUNS and we have a deal. I have plenty of ARs and AKs in my collection and I shoot AR in HIGH POWER Competition, so I am NOT putting it down. I hope you get that. Precision? AR beats AK47 hands down. Reliability? Let's put the money on the line buddy.
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#104
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I really love my Romanian AK underfolder, but I have several AR's and they just don't jam. I can't tell what the issue is with everyone else's AR's, but I keep going to the range or into the woods, plugging the bits together, pulling the trigger and... bullets fly out, next cartridges are loaded, yadda. (Now I've done it: next time to the range will be a disaster). Probably Randall's touch. He's done something to just about every one of my AR's, probably did a few things I didn't notice and the guns run better because of it.
To the OP's question: I'll bring both and tuck my SUB2000 in 9mm in a big pocket until I don't think there's any ammo to scrounge any more. If there's a chance I may be scrounging ammo, I bet that I would find more 5.56 and 9mm. The odds are decent for 7.62x39 in civilian stashes but who knows how often you're going to find that? Oh, and those AK mags weigh a ton. Holy crap, I have a lot more respect when I see Afghanis with 7 or 8 loaded magazines visible. That gets heavy fast.
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"Ecuador offers the United States $23 million a year in economic aid, an amount similar to what we were receiving under the tariff benefits, with the purpose of providing human rights training that will contribute to avoid violations of people's privacy, that degrade humanity," --Fernando Alvarado Last edited by rabagley; 03-29-2013 at 11:34 PM.. |
#106
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Right on. If an ak breaks u need a welding torch and other specialzed tools to repair. An Ar just replace the upper or lower.
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#111
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I think I typed a reply the other day, then deleted it because I thought it was dumb. So I'll reply today
The answer is, it depends. All things being equal, whatever you're more comfortable with. I actually am more accurate with my sks than my 223 AK, go figure. The AK is just more practical since I have mags and ammo for it. I've never heard of Chinese AKs being bad. I have a much easier time believing bad ammo. The Mak 90 I had was way nicer than my Saiga, much as I want to like it more(although it is perfectly acceptable, just a cheap finish) |
#113
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R.I.P. Officer Boyer, Cpt Valdez, MSG Elizarraras, Sgt Mora, SSG States |
#114
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You think its the rifle thats the problem? I mean this very respectfully...You need to be more informed... the side show if Iraq was a big distractor. Your mixing up the rifle with the politics... war is after all politics
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R.I.P. Officer Boyer, Cpt Valdez, MSG Elizarraras, Sgt Mora, SSG States |
#115
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Ha ha, the FUD in this thread is hilarious. Own 2 AK's, saiga .308 and a romy build, and have owned and built several different AR's, my current is a BCM.
My romy build is OK but my saiga conversion is awesome, with hand loads I can get 1 1/2" groups out of it with my burris fullfield, and I have hit all the way out to 725 with it. It is extremely reliable, but only with the factory mag. If I could only choose one it would be my BCM AR. all the talk about the AK being more reliable is a bunch of Horse S***. I have put hundreds of rounds out of it and havnt had a single jam, FTFEED or FTFIRE. People that claim the AR is not reliable either built some POS and use sh** mags with it, or have never owned one and are just regurgitating BS they read on some forum somewhere. Clearing a jam in the AR is easy when you know what your doing, my Romy jamed so bad one time, a case fell back into all that open area and got jammed in the trigger hammer area and It took me like 10 minutes to get it fixed. I had to pull the trigger pins and remove the hammer and trigger to get it out. Other reasons I would choose my AR: The ammo is common, mags are common, and parts are common, US law enforcement and LEO use the ammo, mags and parts. Despite 7.62x39 being common, if SHTF, you can't just go to Wal-mart and buy more, and very little if any law enforcement use the round. I have the .22 kit for mine and I would be able to use that for hunting or small game, or in defense in a worst case scenario, and I can carry 1000 .22 for the weight of about 200 7.62x39. Don't get me wrong, the AK is great, and my saiga would be my second choice, and I wouldn't be butt hurt if thats all i had, but the AK is by no means a better weapons system then the AR. |
#116
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Yup I am currently tacticooling my Russian for SHTF a nice tapco stock and a dust cover with a scope on it.
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#118
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AR vs. AK, How about not getting into a firefight in the first place. If you remove the luxory of choice and I have to engage a violent attacker to save my own life, it won't matter one matter one bit if the round was placed in the center of the attackers chest. Who the hell cares which one is accurate at reach out and touch someone ranges. If you are that far away, I'm simply going to leave. if you are close enough to BE A REAL THREAT TO MY LIFE, either rifle fireing what ever you can get your hands on will do just fine.
As far as the reliablity issue is concerend, maintain either rifle properly and thats a non issue. I have put 600 rounds through my rifle in a single day of shooting and it never skipped a beat. when I got home I cleaned it, went back the next day and put another 450 rounds through it and narey a malfunction of any kind.
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.308 Howa 1500, 24" heavy varmint barrel. .223 Howa 1500 24" heavy varmint barrel. RRA 20" predator pursute upper/C3 defense Lower. Vortex optics |
#119
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As someone who has actually BEEN there and seen the problems, and been frustrated by them, I wholeheartedly resent your statement. The M16-A4/ M4 platform is entirely reliable and maintainable. It is more accurate than the AK systems, follow on shots are easier to keep on target because there is less recoil. It kills Taliban just fine. The problems with the counterinsurgency efforts of the United States have been a matter of politics and commitment. In order for a counterinsurgency to work, you have to make the population like you more than they like the insurgent forces. That means a long term plan to make their lives better. Schools, industry, infrastructure, and security are all important. Inform yourself before you denigrate the ability of American grunts to maintain and use their rifles. |
#120
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i am resisting the urge to give this a further stir, and will remove my post.
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it is not an easy thing to meet your maker (blade runner- 1982) |
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