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Curio & Relic/Black Powder Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! |
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#1
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German Walther P1 ....
...... is now C & R eligible.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...+P1+9mm+Pistol I don't know if AIM ships to CA, but I suppose someone who has them will. I kind of like the alloy frame. Hmmm. |
#5
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I recently saw a reference to these and am counting my shekels to get ready to buy one. SOG has russion capture P-38's (mismatched and renumbered) for 389 or so.
I'm still deciding between P1 (alloy frame) and P38 (steel frame). P1 is in the lead, though. I have a C&R, and am irked at the 01 requirement for the nanny state, but I don't think that's going to stop ME. |
#6
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They do and of course have to go through a Type 01 FFL - but now being C & R they are roster exempt and having a C & R FFL can be bought "cash & carry" when out of state.
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#7
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So if you have an 03 FFL CR license you can drive to Reno, by the pistol cash and carry then drive it in to a califrnia ffl for dros?
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#8
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If you have a C&R FFL you drive to Reno, buy as many C&R pistols as you want cash and carry, drive them back to California to your home and then register them by mail for $19 each. No need to take them to a California dealer or DROS them.
__________________
__________________ "Knowledge is power... For REAL!" - Jack Austin |
#9
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Thanks for making a CR noobs day! My paperwork is in the mail and I can't wait!
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#11
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aim will ship the pistol to your ffl, where you can dros it. as a c&r, it is roster exempt. or, you may purchase one out of state using your c&r ffl, then voluntarily(or not so voluntarily, but thats what it's called) register it with caldoj. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf |
#12
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As a P1 owner I say grab these great prices while you can. I love mine and even though now that it's 1/2 the price it was before being C and R eligible, it's a wonderful pistol and easy to rack and shoot. Get one soon is my feeling! And get lots of magazines.
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#13
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The main difference now that the Walther P1 is on the C&R list is, that now you can buy from an FFL01 or have shipped to a FFL01 any P1 that you find regardless of which company imported it. Previously, only the Walther P1's imported by PW Arms are on the CA Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale, so you had to check the importer markings on the pistol before it could be shipped to CA.
Here's mine. It is a real joy to shoot.
__________________
Life can make you do many things, even kiss a man with a runny nose. - Mihail Timofeevič Kalašnikov - |
#15
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Has anyone been able to verify that they are C&R? The only place that is saying they are is Aim Surplus. I haven't seen anything from ATF. Not that it matters for me I can just ship one to me Nevada license. But, for other people it's not that easy. There are a lot of 01 FFL&s in California that won't just take Aim's word. Just ask all those people that tried to order a Romanian Tokarev from J&G Sales with no luck because ATF hasn't posted a definitive statement on them being C&R Eligible and they can't provided proof that they are 50 years old.
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#16
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It's actually a PW Arms import. Had it about 3.5 years now. There used to be two P1 importers listed on the roster, but at some point one has dropped off the roster, so if I remember correctly that has to be Interarms.
__________________
Life can make you do many things, even kiss a man with a runny nose. - Mihail Timofeevič Kalašnikov - |
#17
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#18
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#19
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Sure they would. That's what your; if you have one, C&R is intended for. So you could buy C&R guns in other states and bring them home. You can also use it to mail order guns too.
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#20
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The guns are C&R's. Stop overthinking it. And stop believing the FUD that C&R eligible means that some guns may be > 50 years old and possibly C&R. C&R eligible means that it can be purchased with a FFL03 (of course not shipped directly to CA residents due to the stupid laws). You need to find a FFL who is not a crybaby and will accept C&R guns and have him/her/them receive the pistol for you. Getting any info out of the ATF is going to be next to impossible. They update the C&R list very irregularly. |
#21
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Better yet, if you have a C&R FFL and a COE, you don't have to wait the 10 days and walk with the gun as soon as the DROS is sent through........!!!!
__________________
"......I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you f**k with me, I'll kill you all......" Marine Corps General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders, 2003 |
#22
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I believe that only applies to handguns that are 50 years or older, so the P1,while being a C&R, still needs the 10day wait.
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www.collectordesignwerks.com |
#23
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12078 Ca Penal Code. (t) (1) The waiting periods described in Sections 12071 and 12072 shall not apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor, by a dealer to a person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto who has a current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071. On the date that the delivery, sale, or transfer is made, the dealer delivering the firearm shall transmit to the Department of Justice an electronic or telephonic report of the transaction as is indicated in subdivision (b) or (c) of Section 12077. Don't see anything about 50 years or older in there.
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Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups |
#24
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Really, that may be what the C&R is for, but there are many Nevada dealers that won't even talk to you if your from CA, they could care less if you have a 03 FFL. Their business, their rules.
__________________
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups |
#25
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Handguns only need to be C&R for the C&R waiting period exemption.
__________________
__________________ "Knowledge is power... For REAL!" - Jack Austin |
#27
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Correct me if I am wrong folks....but any gun needs to be 50 years or Older or on the BATFE C&R Roster.
Here is ATF's Q&A Page answer: Q: What is a firearm curio or relic? Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories: 1.Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or 2.Be certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or 3.Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. |
#28
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Bigthaiboy,
That is a nice picture. The gun you have has a couple of small differences from most that I have seen. It has Kal 9mm rather than Cal 9mm, and the sides of the slide come up higher and cover the edges of the rear of the barrel. Small differences, but interesting. |
#29
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Easy, don't buy from those dealers.
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#30
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I'm attaching this CZ82 letter that was posted on Calguns a few years back. Obviously the CZ is not 50 years old (not even 30) but it is C&R due to #2 above. You guys need to get better FFL01's to receive these guns for you. |
#31
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I don't need to find a 01 dealer that knows what is going on and is not a crybaby. I have TWO 03 C&R FFL's; one in California and one in Nevada, so that I can just buy what ever C&R I want and ship it to myself with no more 01 dealers. But, other people are not as lucky as I am and need to prove to some California 01 dealers these things and with out proof some Californians are SOL. That is why I wanted to know if anyone has seen anything from BATF. |
#32
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#33
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ATF also has a process for certifying a less than 50 year old firearm as C & R eligible. Some are obvious - Lindbergh's revolver for example. I've no idea how they do it on others - 2nd Generation Colt SAAs, Smith 53 and all pre-64 Winchester 94s are on it as are quite a few others. I can't figure out their rhyme or reason though. Fine that the Smith 53 is on it, but shouldn't the Smith 58 be there also. The book is worth a read, you'll do alot of "I can get that!?" |
#34
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As I said, find out the importer and contact them directly. When the CZ82 first hit the list nobody had any documentation on it until I received that PDF referenced by RaceDay from PW Arms and published it here. If you want a P1 badly enough do the legwork for it and it'll be all that much more rewarding when you finally get it in your hands. Otherwise you'll just have to wait until they find their way into California and dealers start receiving them as C&R's. No reputable dealer is going to transfer one to you on your say-so that it's a Curio, it's going to take paperwork. John |
#35
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Also, kudos to John for the Cz82 letter. That was a pistol that I really, really wanted. |
#37
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Just say "roster - we don't need no stinking roster ...." Two things - first you have to show them CA law that exempts C & Rs. If the model hasn't been made in 50 years old that's pretty easy. Then usually a printout from the ATF's C & R book works to show the gun is qualified if it's under 50 years old. The problems that come up usually involve "under 50 years old" guns that are listed. For example, the Colt OM manufactured from 1953 to 1969 is listed as C & R eligible - unfortunately some FFLs take the approach that means only 1953 to 1959 versions, not 1961, 62 and such. Two ways to approach it - first, since a +50 year old gun (in original condition) is C & R by virtue of age, why bother to list the dates at all? Second, show them the Smith Model 53 - I think it came out in '62 or '63 - these are C & R and there are no +50 Model 53s out there, same thing applies to 2nd Generation Colt SAAs. The ones that are difficult are guns - like the Smith 10 or Colt Cobra, Detective Special - that are not specifically listed. A +50 would be C & R, a -50 would not be C & R. I guess that's when you break out the Smith DOM & serial number book or Proofhouse.com printout. |
#38
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I haven't found anything on the BATF website that shows the P1's are curio and relic. I ordered a P1 and it is being sent to my FFL. Could someone point me in the right direction as far printing some documentation? Thank You
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#39
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Interesting. I noticed the 60's manufactured P1/ P38's are marked with Cal 9mm, but 70's and 80's made P1's are marked with the Kal 9mm. Mine was manufactured in 1977.
__________________
Life can make you do many things, even kiss a man with a runny nose. - Mihail Timofeevič Kalašnikov - |
#40
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You mgiht also try Royal Tiger. They've been working on importing C&R P1's since last October or so. |
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