Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > SPECIALTY FORUMS > FFL's Forum
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-17-2018, 2:32 PM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,338
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Visitor selling handgun to CA resident

Does anything prevent the resident of another state, say Ohio, who is visiting CA from selling a CA legal handgun to a CA resident via a PPT? Both would be present at the same time to initiate the transfer at the FFL's place of business.

I have head that the problem is that both the seller and the buyer have to had ID, whether it be a CDL, CID card, or military orders. If that is so, where is the law or regulation to that effect? Thanks.

P.S.: I have started a thread on the How CA Law Applies To/Affects Me forum if anyone cares to look at http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...1#post21891289

Last edited by Chewy65; 07-17-2018 at 2:35 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-17-2018, 2:40 PM
hermosabeach's Avatar
hermosabeach hermosabeach is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,975
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Sorry- did not see this was FFL forum- not an FFL
Some dealers might process it the same as an out of state purchase from Gunbroker.

They just accept delivery from the seller in person vs from UPS / fed ex.

I think they still need to generate a # from DOJ to receive the firearm.

PPT is for residents of the same state and the same location

Gun would also need to be legal to buy in CA- roster, AW,etc.



— from ca DOJ—
The purchaser (and seller if the purchaser is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements.
The seller would need the same criteria as buyer- firearm safety card, California residency and proof of residency
__________________




“Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.”
— Neil deGrasse Tyson

- If the Democrats thought for one seconds that Illegals were voting republican, You'd see the Border Wall from Space! - Abe Lincoln

Last edited by hermosabeach; 07-17-2018 at 2:52 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-17-2018, 2:53 PM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,338
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I should clarify that I am aware of law requiring the purchaser/transferee to present acceptable proof of identity, but nothing concerning the seller/transferor. This seems to authorize the AG to promulgate regs:

28060.

The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this chapter to do all of the following:
(a) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer, and to allow those persons and the dealer to preserve the confidentiality of those records and to comply with the requirements of this chapter and all of the following:
(1) Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(2) Article 1 (commencing with Section 27500) of Chapter 4.
(3) Article 2 (commencing with Section 28150) of Chapter 6.
(4) Article 3 (commencing with Section 28200) of Chapter 6.
(b) Record sufficient information for purposes of Section 11106 in the instance where a firearm is returned to a personal firearm importer because a sale or transfer of that firearm by the personal firearm importer could not be completed.
(c) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer shall state all of the following:
(1) The name and address of the seller or transferor of the firearm or the person loaning the firearm.
(2) Whether or not the person is a personal firearm importer.
(3) Any other information required by Article 2 (commencing with Section 28150) of Chapter 6.

(Amended by Stats. 2011, Ch. 745, Sec. 47. (AB 809) Effective January 1, 2012.)

Nothing says that the address must be in California. Even then the enabling statute is not a regulation and the AG would have to follow laws for the adoption of regulations would he not?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-17-2018, 3:02 PM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,338
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
Sorry- did not see this was FFL forum- not an FFL
Some dealers might process it the same as an out of state purchase from Gunbroker.

They just accept delivery from the seller in person vs from UPS / fed ex.

I think they still need to generate a # from DOJ to receive the firearm.

PPT is for residents of the same state and the same location

Gun would also need to be legal to buy in CA- roster, AW,etc.



— from ca DOJ—
The purchaser (and seller if the purchaser is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements.
The seller would need the same criteria as buyer- firearm safety card, California residency and proof of residency
I have considered that but note that the seller only needs to meet normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements IF the purchaser is denied. Assume that the everyone, including the FFL, are comfortable with the gun being turned over to the police if the seller is denied. Also "the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements" for a resident of Ohio are what must be met; not criteria for a resident of CA. In order to insure that those Ohio laws are met the CA FFL may have to transfer the gun to an Ohio FFL to return it to the purchaser. This is likely most practical if the Ohio seller was only visiting CA at the time and may well be back in Ohio by the time DROS fails. Just thinking of the cuff and not saying this is correct.

As for the roster, if this is being processed as a PPT (if it can be where the seller is not a resident of CA) then the roster does not apply.

Last edited by Chewy65; 07-17-2018 at 3:07 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-17-2018, 3:29 PM
caliguy93's Avatar
caliguy93 caliguy93 is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: North Koreafornia
Posts: 1,085
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

It is possible.

The FFL has to conduct it as if the firearm was shipped from a private party from out of state. (some ffls require out of state firearms to be shipped from FFL’s only) other FFLs accept it from private parties.

The ffl just needs a copy of the out of state sellers ID.

The ffl then conducts the dros as a dealer sale which in turn would not allow the transfer of an off roster handgun.

So depending on the type of firearm and the FFLs policies, yea it is possible
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:58 AM
ugimports's Avatar
ugimports ugimports is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 3,758
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

I get where chewy is going with this (I read the other thread).. Nobody has been able to point out the Penal Code where it says the seller in a PPT transaction must be a CA resident. At least I haven't seen it yet.

Yes the DOJ system FORCES that.., but it could be an underground regulation much like with the AW regs force photos as a requirement, but that was NEVER required in the penal code and is now being challenged..

I don't think anyone has found the penal code yet which states the seller must be a CA resident in a face to face transaction.

Remember a Mil ID doesn't mean the seller is a CA resident.. You're supposed to get a copy of their station orders, but the reality is there is nothing stopping a NV resident with a MIL ID from doing a transaction other than the fact that CA DOJ might kick back a non CA address.

Come to think of it what about the few people that have a CA ID/DL but the address on it is in Nevada? I wonder what CA DOJ would do about those as for a seller..

I took about an hour searching for penal code and couldn't find it. Some of the more PC knowledgeable folks didn't have it handy either so it's possible it doesn't exist.. which means it may be open to challenge...

I'm all for getting this going as it would allow more off roster stuff into CA...
__________________
us on facebook
UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales
Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed
web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com
twitter: http://twitter.com/ugimports / phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867)
G+: http://google.com/+UGImportsLLCFremont / FB: http://facebook.com/ugimports
NorCal Range Maps: http://ugimports.com/rangemaps

I AM THE MAJORITY!!!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-18-2018, 1:08 AM
Quiet's Avatar
Quiet Quiet is offline
retired Goon
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Bernardino County
Posts: 23,057
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

IMO...
It is an underground regulations that is implemented via the CA DROS system.
^They programmed it so that the PPT exemption for off-Roster handguns only applies to a person with a valid CA DL or valid CA ID or Mil ID with orders for CA.


AFAIK...
CGF/FPC was looking at filing lawsuit to challenge this, but not sure what the status of that is.
__________________


"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).

Last edited by Quiet; 07-18-2018 at 1:38 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-19-2018, 2:54 PM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 9,594
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

A military ID with duty orders means that the person is treated as a resident.

Since the DROS requires a CA ID/DL or military ID with duty orders, an out of state resident can't do a CA PPT.

As said, it would be the same as if the person shipped it. You don't need a copy of the ID, just need to see it in order the log the firearm in. If the buyer is denied, there are no requirements to turn it over to the police.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-19-2018, 3:18 PM
ugimports's Avatar
ugimports ugimports is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 3,758
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
A military ID with duty orders means that the person is treated as a resident.

Since the DROS requires a CA ID/DL or military ID with duty orders, an out of state resident can't do a CA PPT.

As said, it would be the same as if the person shipped it. You don't need a copy of the ID, just need to see it in order the log the firearm in. If the buyer is denied, there are no requirements to turn it over to the police.
Nobody has found anything in the PC that says the duty orders must be in CA for the seller.

All us FFLs have been forced to say a "CA PPT" means seller is from CA because of limitations in the DROS software. The PC doesn't seem to indicate that so far.
__________________
us on facebook
UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales
Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed
web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com
twitter: http://twitter.com/ugimports / phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867)
G+: http://google.com/+UGImportsLLCFremont / FB: http://facebook.com/ugimports
NorCal Range Maps: http://ugimports.com/rangemaps

I AM THE MAJORITY!!!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-19-2018, 5:14 PM
lanzador49 lanzador49 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 87
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Doesn't the transaction have to fall in an exemption category if the firearm is not on the roster (intrafamiliar gift, no consideration)?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-19-2018, 5:27 PM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 9,594
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lanzador49 View Post
Doesn't the transaction have to fall in an exemption category if the firearm is not on the roster (intrafamiliar gift, no consideration)?
Yes, that was stated in the OP that it was on roster firearm, although not in those words.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-19-2018, 5:57 PM
RickD427's Avatar
RickD427 RickD427 is online now
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: King County
Posts: 5,631
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
A military ID with duty orders means that the person is treated as a resident.

Since the DROS requires a CA ID/DL or military ID with duty orders, an out of state resident can't do a CA PPT.

As said, it would be the same as if the person shipped it. You don't need a copy of the ID, just need to see it in order the log the firearm in. If the buyer is denied, there are no requirements to turn it over to the police.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
Nobody has found anything in the PC that says the duty orders must be in CA for the seller.

All us FFLs have been forced to say a "CA PPT" means seller is from CA because of limitations in the DROS software. The PC doesn't seem to indicate that so far.
Gents,

There are many different forms of "Duty Orders" in the military. The orders must be PCS (Permanent Change of Station - The type of order assigning a person to a duty station) orders to make the person a resident of California for firearms purposes. Other forms of "Duty Orders" are not sufficient.

The requirement is not found in the Penal Code. It's contained in 18 USC 922(a)(5) which requires the seller to be a California resident and 18 USC 921(b) which makes him/her a California resident upon being assigned to a permanent duty station in California.
__________________
What is really needed here is less "Tactical" thinking and more "Strategic" thinking.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-19-2018, 6:03 PM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 9,594
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
Gents,

There are many different forms of "Duty Orders" in the military. The orders must be PCS (Permanent Change of Station - The type of order assigning a person to a duty station) orders to make the person a resident of California for firearms purposes. Other forms of "Duty Orders" are not sufficient.

The requirement is not found in the Penal Code. It's contained in 18 USC 922(a)(5) which requires the seller to be a California resident and 18 USC 921(b) which makes him/her a California resident upon being assigned to a permanent duty station in California.
Long guns have no residency requirements, so that it not in the Federal Code, it is CA which prevents it.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-19-2018, 6:15 PM
RickD427's Avatar
RickD427 RickD427 is online now
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: King County
Posts: 5,631
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Long guns have no residency requirements, so that it not in the Federal Code, it is CA which prevents it.
You're correct with regard to Long Guns, but the OP's question was specific to handguns, and that the context of my posting.
__________________
What is really needed here is less "Tactical" thinking and more "Strategic" thinking.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-20-2018, 7:52 AM
ugimports's Avatar
ugimports ugimports is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 3,758
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

I don't see where 18 USC 922(a)(5) requires the seller to be a CA resident. Out of state private sellers sell to CA residents all the time.

I see this:
Quote:
Q: May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State?
A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]
Which seems to indicate it's perfectly legal for a CA resident to purchase a firearm from a private party outside of California.

Other than the DROS software, there is no CA penal code anyone has dug up yet that says the seller must be a CA resident.

SO this goes back to why can't a Mil ID with permanent duty orders for Nevada do a PPT in a California FFL besides the DROS software kicking it back with:
Quote:
Seller Information: The Zip Code must be a valid California Zip Code.
But where in the Penal code does it say that's required?
__________________
us on facebook
UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales
Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed
web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com
twitter: http://twitter.com/ugimports / phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867)
G+: http://google.com/+UGImportsLLCFremont / FB: http://facebook.com/ugimports
NorCal Range Maps: http://ugimports.com/rangemaps

I AM THE MAJORITY!!!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-20-2018, 9:46 AM
lanzador49 lanzador49 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 87
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

My take on all this is that, if the handgun is a California legal firearm on the roster, and has magazines limited to 10 rounds, it can be sent from out of state to a California FFL to be transferred to a California resident, or it can be done as a PPT at a California FFL, regardless of whether the seller is a California resident.

Unless I'm missing something.

I could be wrong, though. (And I will confess that I was wrong...once. That one time I thought I was wrong but I was actually right!! ()
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-20-2018, 10:48 AM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 9,594
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

There isn't anything to prevent a CA resident from buying a firearm from an out of state person, but there is a an issue with regards to doing the transfer as a CA PPT. Firearms are shipped into CA all the time and there is nothing stopping the person from personally bringing it in.

If you can't do the CA PPT, then handguns have to be on the roster or be exempt.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-20-2018, 11:02 AM
ugimports's Avatar
ugimports ugimports is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 3,758
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
There isn't anything to prevent a CA resident from buying a firearm from an out of state person, but there is a an issue with regards to doing the transfer as a CA PPT. Firearms are shipped into CA all the time and there is nothing stopping the person from personally bringing it in.

If you can't do the CA PPT, then handguns have to be on the roster or be exempt.

All correct and for the bolded, the only thing it appears stopping you from doing a CA PPT is the DROS software (not penal code).
__________________
us on facebook
UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales
Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed
web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com
twitter: http://twitter.com/ugimports / phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867)
G+: http://google.com/+UGImportsLLCFremont / FB: http://facebook.com/ugimports
NorCal Range Maps: http://ugimports.com/rangemaps

I AM THE MAJORITY!!!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-20-2018, 2:43 PM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,338
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
All correct and for the bolded, the only thing it appears stopping you from doing a CA PPT is the DROS software (not penal code).
That is the issue; not whether it can be bought from an out of state source but if the law allows for transfer to be done as a PPT. Since the PC does not provide that the seller must be a CA resident, the requirement to use software system designed to limit sellers to CA residents amounts to being an underground regulation.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-20-2018, 3:44 PM
Eddy's Shooting Sports's Avatar
Eddy's Shooting Sports Eddy's Shooting Sports is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,226
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

If this is the case that the CA resident requirement for a FTF PPT is just an underground DOJ regulation, why has it taken this so long to come to light? Seems this would open the floodgates for off roster handguns if it could be done. We must be missing something.....
__________________
Greg David
Eddy's Shooting Sports
(650)969-GUNS

400 Moffett Blvd., Suite F
Mountain View, CA 94043

www.eddysguns.com

Tue-Fri 12-7, Sat 11-5
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-20-2018, 4:49 PM
ugimports's Avatar
ugimports ugimports is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 3,758
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports View Post
If this is the case that the CA resident requirement for a FTF PPT is just an underground DOJ regulation, why has it taken this so long to come to light? Seems this would open the floodgates for off roster handguns if it could be done. We must be missing something.....
I don't think anyone has bothered to take a look at it (or fund it). From Chewy's postings the past few days nobody has found what we're missing. Librarian and Quiet are both very good at looking at the PC and neither has found anything. This doesn't impact "everyone" since it's still a subset of people that could take advantage of it. E.g., not everyone that wants off roster firearms can convince sellers (non-family/friends) from out of state to come here to complete the transaction.
__________________
us on facebook
UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales
Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed
web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com
twitter: http://twitter.com/ugimports / phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867)
G+: http://google.com/+UGImportsLLCFremont / FB: http://facebook.com/ugimports
NorCal Range Maps: http://ugimports.com/rangemaps

I AM THE MAJORITY!!!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-20-2018, 5:02 PM
M1NM's Avatar
M1NM M1NM is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: West Covina
Posts: 5,898
iTrader: 48 / 100%
Default

Off roster handgun - NO - both are not residents.
Long gun non AW or On roster - Dealer would receive gun from seller and log into his bound book.
Dealer would sell you the gun plus his fee for receiving and DROS.
10 days later pick up your gun.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-20-2018, 5:06 PM
ugimports's Avatar
ugimports ugimports is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 3,758
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1NM View Post
Off roster handgun - NO - both are not residents.
Long gun non AW or On roster - Dealer would receive gun from seller and log into his bound book.
Dealer would sell you the gun plus his fee for receiving and DROS.
10 days later pick up your gun.
For the bolded - please help us all find the PC that states sellers must be CA residents. None of us have had luck finding it.

We all agree that the DROS system FORCES this, but cannot find PC to back it up yet.
__________________
us on facebook
UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales
Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed
web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com
twitter: http://twitter.com/ugimports / phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867)
G+: http://google.com/+UGImportsLLCFremont / FB: http://facebook.com/ugimports
NorCal Range Maps: http://ugimports.com/rangemaps

I AM THE MAJORITY!!!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-20-2018, 7:32 PM
hermosabeach's Avatar
hermosabeach hermosabeach is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,975
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Can I sell a gun directly to another person (i.e. non-dealer)?
Generally, no. This type of transaction is referred to as a “private party transfer” and must be conducted with both parties, in person, through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The purchaser (and seller if the purchaser is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request but may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting the transfer. For example:

For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of up to $10.00 for each additional firearm.
"Antique firearms," as defined in section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement. For additional exceptions, refer to Penal Code sections 27850 through 27966.

(Pen. Code, § 27545.)

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#14
__________________




“Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.”
— Neil deGrasse Tyson

- If the Democrats thought for one seconds that Illegals were voting republican, You'd see the Border Wall from Space! - Abe Lincoln
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-20-2018, 9:37 PM
ugimports's Avatar
ugimports ugimports is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 3,758
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Not sure what you're saying..

https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-c...ect-27545.html

Just says private parties must go through an FFL. Nothing about residency in the PC. The FAQ isn't Penal Code.
__________________
us on facebook
UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales
Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed
web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com
twitter: http://twitter.com/ugimports / phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867)
G+: http://google.com/+UGImportsLLCFremont / FB: http://facebook.com/ugimports
NorCal Range Maps: http://ugimports.com/rangemaps

I AM THE MAJORITY!!!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-20-2018, 9:53 PM
sbo80's Avatar
sbo80 sbo80 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: San Diego
Posts: 519
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

the question is whether DOJ is actually following the law. and you quoted the DOJ website . PC 27545 says if neither two people are licensed, then follow PC 28050. That PC, through 28070, makes no mention of required residency of the seller. It only says, that seller gives gun to dealer, dealer transfers to buyer. If buyer is denied, give it back to seller. Since seller is not CA resident, the CA dealer cannot do so legally, so 28050 says it would be disposed of to LE. That's an extra risk of course for the seller, but doesn't appear to be prohibited in the PC. 28060 says the dreaded "attorney general shall adopt regulations" so I'm sure that's how they pulled it off. It only says the regulations shall "record the name and address of the seller". Residency is not mentioned.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-20-2018, 9:57 PM
unclerandy unclerandy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 804
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

tagged
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-21-2018, 11:18 AM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 9,594
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Definitions matter:

Quote:
16400. As used in this part, "clear evidence of the person's
identity and age" means either of the following:
(a) A valid California driver's license.
(b) A valid California identification card issued by the
Department of Motor Vehicles.
This IS in the CA PC.

There is also in the CA PC the requirement that regulations can be created by the CA DOJ.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-21-2018, 11:21 AM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 9,594
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
All correct and for the bolded, the only thing it appears stopping you from doing a CA PPT is the DROS software (not penal code).
Actually, it is the CA Penal Code which is stopping it. Definitions matter and you have to go through the complete CA PC and not just assume what things mean since what seems like common sense is actually defined differently.

Unless and until you read through everything, you really can't say that it isn't there. It is a mess and things are missed due to how things are written.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-21-2018, 12:33 PM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,338
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbo80 View Post
the question is whether DOJ is actually following the law. and you quoted the DOJ website . PC 27545 says if neither two people are licensed, then follow PC 28050. That PC, through 28070, makes no mention of required residency of the seller. It only says, that seller gives gun to dealer, dealer transfers to buyer. If buyer is denied, give it back to seller. Since seller is not CA resident, the CA dealer cannot do so legally, so 28050 says it would be disposed of to LE. That's an extra risk of course for the seller, but doesn't appear to be prohibited in the PC. 28060 says the dreaded "attorney general shall adopt regulations" so I'm sure that's how they pulled it off. It only says the regulations shall "record the name and address of the seller". Residency is not mentioned.
Even if the CA FFL cannot directly return the gun to the out state resident seller, since he must do so by delivery to a FFL in that state, it can still be returned and is done so without doing a DROS. No?
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 07-21-2018, 12:49 PM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,338
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Definitions matter:



This IS in the CA PC.

There is also in the CA PC the requirement that regulations can be created by the CA DOJ.
Regulations can't be constructed in such a fashion as to effectively enact a law different from the one authorized. The DOJ did not need to block an out of state seller from entering into a private party transaction.

Let's take baby steps before deciding if this is an "Underground Regulation" and first ask if it is even a "regulation". Can anyone cite just where the DOJ requires the seller's CDL or ID to be swiped into the DROS software (is that what is called "DES"?) and has such requirement been adopted as a regulation filed with the Secretary of State?

Quote:
No state agency shall issue, utilize, enforce, or attempt to enforce
any guideline, criterion, bulletin, manual, instruction, order,
standard of general application, or other rule, which is a
“regulation” under the APA unless it has been adopted as a
regulation and filed with the Secretary of State pursuant to the
APA. Government Code section 11340.5(a)
https://www.oal.ca.gov/wp-content/up...Regulation.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-21-2018, 12:56 PM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 9,594
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

The CA PC isn't a regulation. The CA PC requires a CA ID/DL as I quoted.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-21-2018, 1:03 PM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,338
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The CA PC isn't a regulation. The CA PC requires a CA ID/DL as I quoted.
Go back and read what you "cited". A "cite" is not the same as a "quote". I believe you will find that acceptable proof of identity refers to what the buyer must produce. Also PC 16400, if that is what you are talking about, merely defines what is clear evidence of identity and age, but it does not say who must provide it to do a PPT.

Last edited by Chewy65; 07-21-2018 at 1:51 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-21-2018, 1:27 PM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,338
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
ENTERING PURCHASER AND SELLER INFORMATION
All DROS transaction types require the entry of purchaser information. Seller information is only
required on the following transaction types
:
 Private Party Handgun Transfer
 Handgun Loan
 Private Party Long Gun Transfer
 Long Gun Loan
Purchaser and seller information will be captured by swiping the California Driver’s License or Identification card through a magnetic card swipe reader. Any missing or incorrect information
will be keyed directly into the appropriate fields.
Okay, this part of the DES instructions could mean that you must swipe the seller's California cards through a card swipe reader but the same language suggests that you may be able to do a manual entry. Has anyone with a CAFFL ever asked DOJ how they can process a ppt from an out of state resident who had neither a CDL or Identity Card?
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-21-2018, 2:07 PM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,338
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Look at Penal Code Section 28060. It provides that the AG is to adopt regs to do certain things. The AG then goes and requires the use of a DROS Entry System that amounts to a regulation depriving a resident from doing a PPT with a non-resident. Had the Legislature wished to do so, it could have passed such a law but it did not.
Quote:
The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this chapter to do all of the following:
(a) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer, and to allow those persons and the dealer to preserve the confidentiality of those records and to comply with the requirements of this chapter and all of the following:
(1) Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(2) Article 1 (commencing with Section 27500) of Chapter 4.
(3) Article 2 (commencing with Section 28150) of Chapter 6.
(4) Article 3 (commencing with Section 28200) of Chapter 6.
(b) Record sufficient information for purposes of Section 11106 in the instance where a firearm is returned to a personal firearm importer because a sale or transfer of that firearm by the personal firearm importer could not be completed.
(c) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer shall state all of the following:
(1) The name and address of the seller or transferor of the firearm or the person loaning the firearm.
(2) Whether or not the person is a personal firearm importer.
(3) Any other information required by Article 2 (commencing with Section 28150) of Chapter 6.
(Amended by Stats. 2011, Ch. 745, Sec. 47. (AB 809) Effective January 1, 2012.)
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-21-2018, 2:13 PM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 9,594
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Did you read the CA PC section I posted? It states what is defined as proof of identity which means a CA ID/DL. It isn't limited in reference.

You are not clearly reading it correctly. When it says in other sections that the person has to provide proof of identity, it means that you can replace that with CA ID/DL and that alone. That is what the law says.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07-22-2018, 11:57 AM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,338
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Did you read the CA PC section I posted? It states what is defined as proof of identity which means a CA ID/DL. It isn't limited in reference.

You are not clearly reading it correctly. When it says in other sections that the person has to provide proof of identity, it means that you can replace that with CA ID/DL and that alone. That is what the law says.
Yes I read it. Go back and find where the PC says you must provide proof of identity. You will see that it is only required of the buyer. For instance, see PC 26815(c)

Quote:
26815. No firearm shall be delivered . . . (c) Unless the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm presents clear evidence of the person’s identity and age to the dealer.
If the Legislature wanted to require the seller, transferor, or person making the loan of the firearm to present clear evidence of the person's identity and age to the dealer, the Legislature would have said so. It did not, which suggest that it did not intend the same. Also, it is well established that an unambiguous statute is to be construed according to its plain language. I believe there is an exception for when that plain language would lead to an absurdity, which here is not the case. While an agency tasked with enforcing a statute and adopting regulations for its enforcement has broad discretion in interpreting a statute, I do not believe that here the DOJ has the right to read into PC 26815 the requirement that the seller must also produce "clear evidence of the person's identity and age".

Last edited by Chewy65; 07-22-2018 at 12:12 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-22-2018, 12:29 PM
taperxz taperxz is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 16,577
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
Yes I read it. Go back and find where the PC says you must provide proof of identity. You will see that it is only required of the buyer. For instance, see PC 26815(c)



If the Legislature wanted to require the seller, transferor, or person making the loan of the firearm to present clear evidence of the person's identity and age to the dealer, the Legislature would have said so. It did not, which suggest that it did not intend the same. Also, it is well established that an unambiguous statute is to be construed according to its plain language. I believe there is an exception for when that plain language would lead to an absurdity, which here is not the case. While an agency tasked with enforcing a statute and adopting regulations for its enforcement has broad discretion in interpreting a statute, I do not believe that here the DOJ has the right to read into PC 26815 the requirement that the seller must also produce "clear evidence of the person's identity and age".
The ATF does in order for an FFL to put it in their A&D book
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-22-2018, 1:50 PM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 9,594
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
Yes I read it. Go back and find where the PC says you must provide proof of identity. You will see that it is only required of the buyer. For instance, see PC 26815(c)



If the Legislature wanted to require the seller, transferor, or person making the loan of the firearm to present clear evidence of the person's identity and age to the dealer, the Legislature would have said so. It did not, which suggest that it did not intend the same. Also, it is well established that an unambiguous statute is to be construed according to its plain language. I believe there is an exception for when that plain language would lead to an absurdity, which here is not the case. While an agency tasked with enforcing a statute and adopting regulations for its enforcement has broad discretion in interpreting a statute, I do not believe that here the DOJ has the right to read into PC 26815 the requirement that the seller must also produce "clear evidence of the person's identity and age".
So you think that for a CA PPT that the seller is not required to provide ANY identification? That would make it quite hard to be able to return it to the seller if the buyer is denied.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-22-2018, 4:34 PM
taperxz taperxz is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 16,577
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
So you think that for a CA PPT that the seller is not required to provide ANY identification? That would make it quite hard to be able to return it to the seller if the buyer is denied.
It would also be problematic with ATF since you are holding the gun in your store for 240 hours minimum.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 1:51 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.