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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 03-20-2017, 11:36 AM
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Default Proficiency and accuracy with CCW pistols

After the range session for ccw renewal this past Saturday, and also based on what I saw during the range session for initial ccw application two years ago, I have a few comments I'd like to get off my chest and I'd like the forum's patience in allowing me to do so...

1. People really need to familiarize themselves with their intended concealed carry pistol(s) so you're not fumbling with something as simple as, load magazine (you'd be surprised...), load your firearm, chamber, and remove magazine after empty. Since it is a "test" of sorts, I can certainly understand that nerves may be rattled a bit, but all of these should be second nature when it comes to a tool you're relying on to save your life should the need arise.

2. People need to practice not just concealing and drawing their pistols, they need to also practice shooting it!!! Compact pistols are not easy to shoot, even in 9 mm. When you add pressure and adrenaline to it, it is even worse. I honestly don't know why a shotgun pattern with a man-sized target at 7 yards (max!) is acceptable... And personally I think missing the target entirely is grounds for failing the certification. Between the two sessions, two years apart, there were a total of roughly 30 people that shot with me. This session past Saturday, over 60% of the classmates were there for renewals. Everyone I met were courteous and humble and generally nice people who I believe would represent the CCW community very well, but I would be more afraid as the bystander than the assailant if they ever had to engage with deadly force. I'm not a great shot by any means and need practice myself, but I do practice regularly with my ccw pistols at least once or twice a month... Since aiming to shoot tiny groups is not the focus of ccw shooting, combat accuracy is still important. This video from Rob Leatham could be helpful to a lot of my classmates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I

3. I know some instructors are more strict than others when it comes to qualifying people in the shooting portion of the certification, as they should be! I know my sampling size is small, but I think I've only heard of one account where a shooter did not qualify the shooting portion mentioned on this forum, and I saw one personally in my class when I shot two years ago. While an average ccw holder may not even have the chance to draw their weapon in their lifetime, this is all the more reason to train, train, and train some more to make sure your shots count if and when you actually need to shoot. There are many more aspects to training that should be done of course.

Sorry for the little vent... I used to think that we'll all be safer if more of us are allowed to carry, but I'm starting to doubt myself...

Happy Monday everybody!
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:48 AM
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Almost everyone at my CCW course shot shotgun sized groups with their handgun at 10 yards. With the exception of one dude who is a competition shooter.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:56 AM
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I think it would be beneficial to bring a little competition style shooting training, and pressure into ccw training.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:59 AM
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As an instructor I realize that not everyone has the same abilities. In a perfect world, all CCW holders should be able to shoot out the X ring at 15 yards but, most people can't even stay in the 8 ring. I evaluate each student based on my perception of their abilities and and what I feel their abilities should be. As long as they pass the qualification portion within the IA's policies, I will usually pass them. I might recommend more practice and training but, I don't feel right not passing someone just because he/she only shoots as well (or a little better than) the average LEO. Yea, many LEOs have trouble qualifying with their full size duty weapons yet, they finally do qualify each testing time. Before I hold CCW holders to a higher standard, I think every LEA should be held to a higher standard than a CCW holder.

BTW, a "shotgun sized group" at 10 yards would be all in the 9 or 10 ring depending on the choke. So, I'd be tickled pink if all my students were able to hold a "shotgun sized pattern" at each qualifying distance.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post

As an instructor I realize that not everyone has the same abilities.

In a perfect world, all CCW holders should be able to shoot out the X ring at 15 yards but, most people can't even stay in the 8 ring.
I evaluate each student based on my perception of their abilities and and what I feel their abilities should be.

As long as they pass the qualification portion within the IA's policies,
I will usually pass them.

I might recommend more practice and training but,

I don't feel right not passing someone just because he/she only shoots as well (or a little better than) the average LEO.

Yea, many LEOs have trouble qualifying with their full size duty weapons yet, they finally do qualify each testing time.

Before I hold CCW holders to a higher standard,

I think every LEA should be held to a higher standard than a CCW holder.

BTW, a "shotgun sized group" at 10 yards would be all in the 9 or 10 ring depending on the choke.

So, I'd be tickled pink if all my students were able to hold a "shotgun sized pattern" at each qualifying distance.
During my brief tenure in the firearms industry, I regularly saw LEO's who not only shot poorly, but who were out shot by the wives.

Many states have no shooting qualification required for a CCW LTC.

In the absence of a universal shooting culture and the presence of a virulent opposition to state supported firearm training, California's standard may seem weak.

However, constitutional rights shouldn't be limited by tests...

Want to see better shooters, require and fund a firearms class for all high school students.
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Old 03-20-2017, 1:30 PM
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Originally Posted by pklin1297 View Post
1. People really need to familiarize themselves with their intended concealed carry pistol(s)

2. People need to practice not just concealing and drawing their pistols, they need to also practice shooting it
Gonna agree on both points. My CCW qual class was only six of us, but at least two people were shooting brand new guns that had not even been cleaned prior to the qual, let alone having practiced with them and learning the functions. And these weren't cheap guns either. I was very surprised by this, and a bit uncomfortable.
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Old 03-20-2017, 3:10 PM
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I have seen this over and over. Some of the people I've seen shoot at CCW classes shouldn't even own a gun let alone have a CCW. A fair amount of CCW holders aren't necessarily gun people. It unfortunate many people consider their safety more important than the safety of the people they may harm or kill that may be to side or behind a bad guy.
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Old 03-20-2017, 3:22 PM
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Originally Posted by back4more70 View Post
Gonna agree on both points. My CCW qual class was only six of us, but at least two people were shooting brand new guns that had not even been cleaned prior to the qual, let alone having practiced with them and learning the functions. And these weren't cheap guns either. I was very surprised by this, and a bit uncomfortable.

I should add to this: know basic safe firearm handling... My instructor repeats over and over again with demonstration how to safely check (and recheck) your pistol for empty, and safe handling, but still several people at the first sign of malfunction the first thing they do is point the gun at you with a blank stare and in the process sweeping everyone else that happened to be in the way... My instructor wears a bullet proof vest at every qualification for a good reason.

I have to admit, when I added my G26 to the license, I happened to pick up the gun the same day as my qualification so all I could do is break it down, oil in critical places and go. Having owned two other Glocks before it was no biggie, but I had to learn to shoot it on the fly.

During my first qual., one classmate brought a shiny new Wilson Combat Stealth 45 ACP. Let's just say, it would not be beneficial for WC to use his target to show how accurate their guns are... But boy, I was itching to shoot that gun on the line!
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Old 03-20-2017, 3:37 PM
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There were people at my CCW qualification that missed the target. I don't mean missed the "kill zone", I mean missed the target, the entire B27 and the stand it was mounted on and it was 5 yards with no time limit. The instructors worked with those people and got them all to pass eventually.

My feelings? Well, I'm as 2A as they get... but I'm not a moron and I truly do believe people should be required to be proficient to a reasonable degree with the weapon they want to carry in public. Do you think the person missing the entire target (which is human sized more or less) from 15 feet is going to be able to draw and hit a moving bad guy in poor light under stress? Man I'd give that about a 10% beginner's luck chance and I think I'm being generous. Honestly the chances of that person hitting someone else is just as likely.

I don't want to limit a person's ability to defend themselves to being an expert shot, but I can see pkln1297's point and agree that qualification might include a little stress training. It's not personal, it's for the better good.
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Old 03-20-2017, 4:07 PM
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There were people at my CCW qualification that missed the target. I don't mean missed the "kill zone", I mean missed the target, the entire B27 and the stand it was mounted on and it was 5 yards with no time limit. The instructors worked with those people and got them all to pass eventually.

My feelings? Well, I'm as 2A as they get... but I'm not a moron and I truly do believe people should be required to be proficient to a reasonable degree with the weapon they want to carry in public. Do you think the person missing the entire target (which is human sized more or less) from 15 feet is going to be able to draw and hit a moving bad guy in poor light under stress? Man I'd give that about a 10% beginner's luck chance and I think I'm being generous. Honestly the chances of that person hitting someone else is just as likely.

I don't want to limit a person's ability to defend themselves to being an expert shot, but I can see pkln1297's point and agree that qualification might include a little stress training. It's not personal, it's for the better good.

After reading what CSACANNONEER wrote, I'm just as afraid of peace officers in the field...
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Old 03-20-2017, 4:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pklin1297 View Post
After reading what CSACANNONEER wrote, I'm just as afraid of peace officers in the field...
Perhaps though giving them the edge based on other resources at their disposal. But yeah, my buddy's kid is a cop, bottom line he's not a gun guy and asking him to spend time on the range would be like asking a construction laborer to go practice with his hammer over the weekend. I doubt he could hit a barn, no reason to think he could because he shoots exactly the rounds his PD asks him to and not one more.
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Old 03-20-2017, 5:17 PM
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The OP raises a very good point and all CCW holders should be aware of how crucially important it is to actually know how to use your gun and hit your target.

With due respect I'd like to object to one statement and comment on it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pklin1297 View Post
.... I honestly don't know why a shotgun pattern with a man-sized target at 7 yards (max!) is acceptable...
A shotgun pattern at 7 yards is actually THE BEST most anyone can do. It is actually VERY DESIRABLE.

Of course there are skilled shooters that can put 10 rounds in the same hole at 7 yards right but ... here is the catch:

Can you do that, rapid fire, and under extreme pressure? Try it

Under pressure, most people will not even hit the silhouette at 7 yards and would be wishing for a shotgun pattern.

So you have stood up in front of the target at 7 yards, rapid fire and hit center mass. You can do this on every range trip and say to yourself, I'm pretty good.

Now take that to a match to simulate shooting under a lot of pressure, with a timer, officers, many people watching your every move, in an environment and on targets you have never experienced before... you hear the beep, pull out your pistol from your holster and wonder why your grip didn't come out right and your Front Sight post is shivering uncontrollably ... but these things never happen at the range?? Most guys that think they shoot pretty well under the relaxed environment of the shooting range will be lucky if HALF their shots even hit the paper on their first match particularly with a short barreled CCW pistol. That is the truth (guess how I know).

Every CCW holder probably should do at least some matches, to experience and learn from shooting under pressure, which is very different than range practice. A shotgun pattern under those circumstances would not be too bad.
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Old 03-20-2017, 5:22 PM
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There was a guy in my initial CCW class that loaded his bullets backwards into his Glock 19 magazine.
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Old 03-20-2017, 5:39 PM
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There was a guy in my initial CCW class that loaded his bullets backwards into his Glock 19 magazine.
Are you sure the gun wasn't an H&K?
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Old 03-20-2017, 5:52 PM
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Are you sure the gun wasn't an H&K?
Of course not. If it was an H&K, they would have been loaded that way per factory specs.
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Old 03-20-2017, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by caliberetta View Post

With due respect I'd like to object to one statement and comment on it:



A shotgun pattern at 7 yards is actually THE BEST most anyone can do. It is actually VERY DESIRABLE.

Of course there are skilled shooters that can put 10 rounds in the same hole at 7 yards right but ... here is the catch:

Can you do that, rapid fire, and under extreme pressure? Try it

Under pressure, most people will not even hit the silhouette at 7 yards and would be wishing for a shotgun pattern.

So you have stood up in front of the target at 7 yards, rapid fire and hit center mass. You can do this on every range trip and say to yourself, I'm pretty good.
Agreed largely. I think those that carry should really spend time practicing point shooting in addition to sighted target shooting practice.
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Old 03-20-2017, 6:23 PM
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Are you sure the gun wasn't an H&K?
Yeah, I'm positive.

He also gripped his pistol with his left thumb over his right thumb (right handed shooter) during a live fire exercise.

The slide bite took out a nice chunk of this left thumb. Afterwards, he stood there, blood dripping onto the range floor and proclaimed that it didn't hurt at all.

OK....
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Old 03-20-2017, 6:37 PM
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How big, in inches, is the 7, 8, 9 ring you fellers are talking about? I usually use the LAX #7 target but I suspect the 9 ring you're talking about isn't 2" or whatever the #7 is.
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Old 03-20-2017, 7:22 PM
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Most people shoot handguns badly. period
CCW holders might be a bit better on average, just as most Police Officers are maybe a bit better than the average CCW carrier, sorry to say. At least that is my highly unscientific observation. I am a card carrying old guy...
What is "badly" ? Well I think worse than hand sized at 7 yards, slow fire is not too much to ask.
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Old 03-20-2017, 9:16 PM
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My instructor tried to instill a bit of pressure by having us start at different ready positions and blew his whistle to start us shooting at different times to keep us guessing. He also told us to speed up when he noticed anyone taking their sweet time aiming. I do plan to also take a training at the range in South county where they have computer simulation screens; That will introduce more variables and certainly more fight or flight instincts to make me miss so I'll know how to work through that...

Caliberetta, I completely agree with you that when pressure mounts, fine motor skills diminishes, tunnel vision sets in, time can show down or speed up, which all contribute to make things harder should you have to use deadly force, and the person who was shooting shotgun groups or missing the target completely whilst under some pressure of qualification would have no hope of hitting anything under real conditions. So, I would think they would need to practice some baby steps and maximize their accuracy under calmer situations in order to shoot shotgun sized groups when it counts, no?

cvigue, we were using B-27E targets. Here are some rough measurements:

X = 2" wide, 3" long
10 ring = 4" wide, 5.75" long
9 ring = 7.75" wide, 11.5" long
8 ring = 9.75" wide, 17.25" long

The distances we were required to shoot were 3, 5 and 7 yards.
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Old 03-20-2017, 9:24 PM
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cvigue, we were using B-27E targets. Here are some rough measurements:

X = 2" wide, 3" long
10 ring = 4" wide, 5.75" long
9 ring = 7.75" wide, 11.5" long
8 ring = 9.75" wide, 17.25" long

The distances we were required to shoot were 3, 5 and 7 yards.
OK, so that seems frickin' huge unless it's really fast shooting or the target is moving or whatever. I'm not a great shot but I can put about 1/sec into a 3" circle @ 7yd pretty easy, smaller if I get to use something I shoot well or it's a really great day.

Worse if the lighting is bad - my eyes are not what they used to be.
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Old 03-21-2017, 6:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pklin1297 View Post
My instructor tried to instill a bit of pressure by having us start at different ready positions and blew his whistle to start us shooting at different times to keep us guessing.

I do plan to also take a training at the range in South county where they have computer simulation screens; That will introduce more variables and certainly more fight or flight instincts to make me miss so I'll know how to work through that...

The distances we were required to shoot were 3, 5 and 7 yards.
Glad to read this. My instructor followed this plan: "The required course of fire for each firearm: Two draws from concealment, two rounds per draw at each station to the body of a B27 target. 3 yards 5 seconds, 7 yards 5 seconds, 10 yards 5 seconds, and 15 yards 10 seconds. Must score 100% hits to the body." So timing (and accuracy) was part of the training.

As far as training on the simulator, it was very valuable. If you get the opportunity, do it.
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Old 03-21-2017, 6:46 AM
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back4more70, I'm glad your instructor allowed drawing from concealment; wish we could do that too. I practice drawing at home, then drawing and shooting in the desert since no range around here allows that.

However, with the classmates I had, if that was a requirement for qualification, we would end up with a bloody mess at the very least...

The longer shots are a bit puzzling though... As much as I love longer range precision, what would be the rational behind shooting as long as 15 yards in a ccw situation? Hard to imagine eminent danger at that distance... In my mind, someone would either have stopped chasing you, or they're running away from you to get that kind of distance, in which case would you be justified with use of gun to "defend" yourself? I guess if the assailant has a gun also they could be shooting at you from that far so that could work. What county are you in?
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Old 03-21-2017, 7:50 AM
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pklin1297, I am in Ventura County. I think we can agree that a 15-yard shot is probably not necessary, however the entire class also had little to no trouble passing that part of the shoot. And thinking about it, if the average aggressor can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds (so the saying goes), then 45 feet in 3-4 seconds is still not a lot of time to react. It certainly didn't hurt to have this as part of the drill, I think.
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Old 03-21-2017, 8:03 AM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
As an instructor I realize that not everyone has the same abilities. In a perfect world, all CCW holders should be able to shoot out the X ring at 15 yards but, most people can't even stay in the 8 ring. I evaluate each student based on my perception of their abilities and and what I feel their abilities should be. As long as they pass the qualification portion within the IA's policies, I will usually pass them. I might recommend more practice and training but, I don't feel right not passing someone just because he/she only shoots as well (or a little better than) the average LEO. Yea, many LEOs have trouble qualifying with their full size duty weapons yet, they finally do qualify each testing time. Before I hold CCW holders to a higher standard, I think every LEA should be held to a higher standard than a CCW holder.

BTW, a "shotgun sized group" at 10 yards would be all in the 9 or 10 ring depending on the choke. So, I'd be tickled pink if all my students were able to hold a "shotgun sized pattern" at each qualifying distance.
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Old 03-21-2017, 8:06 AM
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Originally Posted by GlockN'Roll View Post
During my brief tenure in the firearms industry, I regularly saw LEO's who not only shot poorly, but who were out shot by the wives.

Many states have no shooting qualification required for a CCW LTC.

In the absence of a universal shooting culture and the presence of a virulent opposition to state supported firearm training, California's standard may seem weak.

However, constitutional rights shouldn't be limited by tests...

Want to see better shooters, require and fund a firearms class for all high school students.
+1
Amen Brother....you're preaching to the Choir though!!!
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Old 03-21-2017, 8:08 AM
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I have five LEO friends and I know for a fact that I shoot, clean, dry fire practice more than two of them, and I'm pretty confident two others are possibilities. The only reason they actually "handle" their gun more than I do is because it's part of their uniform they put on everyday, and I live in a county that won't allow ccw's, so I can't do that.
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Old 03-21-2017, 8:13 AM
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*snip*

This video from Rob Leatham could be helpful to a lot of my classmates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I
Geez, Rob is turning into quite the grumpy old man! Pretty angry at other instructors and on the verge of obscenities. Perhaps structured/phrased a little different, but the same old advice people have been giving new shooters for ages.

I remember when I first moved up to powder-burning handguns, the hardest thing for me to do was divorce my trigger finger from the amount of force needed in the rest of my grip. (My first handgun was a .357, so you needed to hang on). One practice, besides the usual dry-fire, was to just sit with the gun watching TV or whatever, and feel the trigger break without looking or trying to aim. Rest your gun hand on an armrest or on your leg, and just learn to feel a "divorced" break.

pklin1297 mentioned it, but when people think I'm crazy for saying smaller groups are more desirable when training, I try to explain that you need to be able shoot 3" groups under match/qualifying pressure, so that you can shoot 6" groups when you're about to die. If all you can do in training is 9" groups, well... God bless!

As for longer range shooting, it's in the same category as as needing a defensive firearm at all: The odds you'll need it are pretty slim, but when you do need it, it's nice to have on tap. This probably an old-timer thing, but I consider 50 yards to be the normal handgun range; 100 yards is long range, and 25 is the scoffable public servant range.
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Old 03-21-2017, 8:57 AM
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Where do we draw the line in allowing someone to exercise their 2A Rights? We are all adults here and should know the consequences of our actions! We should know if we need more one on one time with our daily carry piece either breaking it down and cleaning it or practice on the range until we are satisfied with our accuracy!

I for one, don't want more and more requirements added for me to legally carry to protect myself and my family! Don't be giving the 'Man' any ideas as to what to add to the already required training thus making it more onerous for those wanting to CCW for their protection and the protection of their families. I've seen after action studies where the average CCW holders are more accurate than the "Professionally Trained LEO" and yet we're not harping on the LEOs' need for more training BEFORE they strap on and report for duty protecting the civilians/sheep!

In all your arguments expressed concerning our 2A Rights; think how silly it would sound if those same sentiments where express concerning our 1A Rights! We would finally be free from the assaults of POOR Grammar, BAD Spelling, POOR punctuation and POOR writing skills if we would just require everyone to be better and more thoroughly trained in the proper use of the English language BEFORE they POST on public forums, write letters to people or even write instructions for passing on information on how something works!

Last time I checked, our RIGHTS enumerated in the Bill of Rights are NOT conditional, nor are they predicated on our earning or showing that we are worthy of having them or exercising them! They are our naturally inherited rights, given to us by our CREATOR and NOT given to us by man or the government of MAN!

Be careful of what you wish for!!!
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Old 03-21-2017, 9:22 AM
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I have only two friends who have CCW's. Both are handgun proficient. Both have told me that they had to target shoot "qualify". I explained the difference between target shooting and tactical shooting. I've gone with one of my friends to a range. It was his second time point shooting. He was doing better point shooting than he was with his sights. I told him to always remember that were he shooting at a bad guy, he'd be putting rounds on him, so he cannot remain a stationary target. Due to range rules, he wasn't able to practice shooting while moving to a barrier.

I'm a strict constructionist. There are no conditions or qualifications found within Madison's Second Amendment. We're where we are in terms of rights lost because we've climbed aboard the very slippery slope of "reasonable compromise", which was reasonable only for gun grabbers.

I definitely would hope that people would become proficient with their guns, but I would resist any law that would force Americans to demonstrate competency prior to ability to purchase or carry. The CA handgun proficiency test was merely one increment closer to the objective of despots, and that objective is comprehensive confiscation.
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Old 03-21-2017, 9:30 AM
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titan2,

I should've read your post before I posted mine. You wrote it far more cogently than I did. And I agree with you 100%.

I will disagree with your "studies" that have "shown" that CCW holders are more proficient than professional law enforcement officers. Since CCW holders cannot qualify (liability reasons) on law enforcement qualification courses, there would be no way to validate any such study. Moreover, cops are taught tactics designed to keep them alive.

The correct metric of any law enforcement gunfight is whether cops lived. Rounds fired is immaterial. Cop survival is. It doesn't matter whether cops fired one round or a hundred, the only metric that matters is cop survival.

But we do agree on James Madison's Second Amendment.
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Old 03-21-2017, 9:45 AM
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titan2, if we were all adults who knew the consequence of our actions, we wouldn't have an over-crowded prison system, but that's another topic of discussion...

Now, if all of my classmates were adults who knew the consequence of ever having to exercise their right to concealed carry and defend themselves against assailants with deadly force, they would come to the qualification knowing safe handling practices, how to do basic disassembly of their weapons, and how to shoot their weapons (under pressure or not) well enough as if their life depended on it, but again, that was not the case...

I for one did not call for more regulations to prevent anyone from exercising their 2A Rights, so not sure where all that came from. I suggested only those three simple things listed above to be practiced and I don't think that is too much to ask of any CCW license holder, or anyone involved in the shooting hobby for that matter.

As much as I don't think anyone who is unable to discern the difference between "their" and "there" or "your" and "you're" should be posting on forums, facebook, twitter, or write in general, the poor spelling and/or grammar would not result in a life or death situation. However, anyone who cannot do at least the three things I mentioned while exercising their 2A Rights could end up hurting/killing themselves or others (do a search on YouTube, plenty of examples there). And by the way, most people, or at least all the people I know personally ARE thoroughly trained in the proper use of the English language, all the way from pre-school to college, and some even more in graduate school or med school, so I would consider them properly trained to exercise their 1A Rights, but I'll be darned if even 1% of them are trained properly to exercise their 2A Rights, and certainly not all the way back to pre-school, or even college... So in this topic of discussion, how can these two be compared?
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Old 03-21-2017, 9:56 AM
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Originally Posted by pklin1297 View Post
titan2, if we were all adults who knew the consequence of our actions, we wouldn't have an over-crowded prison system, but that's another topic of discussion...

Now, if all of my classmates were adults who knew the consequence of ever having to exercise their right to concealed carry and defend themselves against assailants with deadly force, they would come to the qualification knowing safe handling practices, how to do basic disassembly of their weapons, and how to shoot their weapons (under pressure or not) well enough as if their life depended on it, but again, that was not the case...

I for one did not call for more regulations to prevent anyone from exercising their 2A Rights, so not sure where all that came from. I suggested only those three simple things listed above to be practiced and I don't think that is too much to ask of any CCW license holder, or anyone involved in the shooting hobby for that matter.

As much as I don't think anyone who is unable to discern the difference between "their" and "there" or "your" and "you're" should be posting on forums, facebook, twitter, or write in general, the poor spelling and/or grammar would not result in a life or death situation. However, anyone who cannot do at least the three things I mentioned while exercising their 2A Rights could end up hurting/killing themselves or others (do a search on YouTube, plenty of examples there). And by the way, most people, or at least all the people I know personally ARE thoroughly trained in the proper use of the English language, all the way from pre-school to college, and some even more in graduate school or med school, so I would consider them properly trained to exercise their 1A Rights, but I'll be darned if even 1% of them are trained properly to exercise their 2A Rights, and certainly not all the way back to pre-school, or even college... So in this topic of discussion, how can these two be compared?
Ouch!!! Struck a nerve there, did I!!!

Listen to what Trey Gowdy says concerning our different rights vs the 2A....very interesting, will only take you about 2 1/2 minutes!!!

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Old 03-21-2017, 9:58 AM
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Artemis Defense in Lake Forest is great. I've been going there roughly 8 times a month since end of December. Because it uses simulators, you can draw from a holster, perform Mozambiques, and practice malfunction drills.

Before you can move up to their 4M courses, you have to go through Pistol 1, 2 & 3, and Transition. The one time I saw a CCW renewal couple who skipped Pistol 1-3, and were allowed to shoot Transition, it was ugly. They barely knew how to operate the weapon, and could barely hit the target.

Am I glad they had CCWs? Sure. But I wouldn't want to be anywhere in their backstop area when SHTF.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:48 AM
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Ouch!!! Struck a nerve there, did I!!!

Listen to what Trey Gowdy says concerning our different rights vs the 2A....very interesting, will only take you about 2 1/2 minutes!!!


Not sure what nerve you think you've struck there...

I didn't start this thread to argue what rights people deserve. If you want to talk about rights, you can head on over to the political discussion forum on this site and speak your heart out...

I'm merely recounting my experience from my past two CCW shooting qualifications with hopes of encouraging more training, and accountability from current, and/or prospective CCW license holders.

Based on what you're saying, even the current training classes and shooting qualification (for me in Orange County anyway) are undue burdens designed to hinder citizens from exercising their 2A Rights. I currently hold a Utah CCW license also so I know several States agree with you in that respect. In OC, these are the cards we're dealt but even so, the number of CCW holders are on the rise and it is good to see. However, to me, seeing an average Joe at the range fumbling their weapon and missing the target is one thing, but seeing this from a prospective CCW applicant, or in my case, from several renewing applicants, is a whole other issue...
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:04 AM
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I still practice drawing, and dry fire my CCW pistol. At least I try to keep muscle memory. I shoot at about 10 yards frequently.

Practice is important (a good one that is).
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:07 AM
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I still practice drawing, and dry fire my CCW pistol. At least I try to keep muscle memory. I shoot at about 10 yards frequently.

Practice is important (a good one that is).

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Old 03-21-2017, 4:50 PM
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I explained the difference between target shooting and tactical shooting. I've gone with one of my friends to a range. It was his second time point shooting. He was doing better point shooting than he was with his sights. I told him to always remember that were he shooting at a bad guy, he'd be putting rounds on him, so he cannot remain a stationary target. Due to range rules, he wasn't able to practice shooting while moving to a barrier.
Spot on. We were taught to move and look around while under threat (it sounds tactical, anyway). Good thing it was a private range, because we were quite a mobile group.
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