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  #81  
Old 11-21-2017, 3:12 AM
roostersgt roostersgt is offline
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With the cost of game cameras coming down so much, and their rampant use, you'd see the damn lions are causing huge harm all year long, not just during hunting season. DFG is NOT interested in deer! Check youtube to see all of the "private" cameras that captured lions killing/ taking young deer. Too many tags and too many regulations / lion tolerations have degraded Ca hunting in the past 40 years.
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  #82  
Old 11-21-2017, 6:41 AM
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Most wardens care. This is their livelihood. Folks.....please wake up and smell the coffee. It's all politics. The Gov. appoints members of the state F&W Commission who are tasks with making fish and game policy. The majority of the state commission are not hunter or gun owner friendly. You want to see change in game laws? Elect the right people........however........our state is extremely liberal and the chance of electing a conservative Gov. and legislators who are hunter friendly is slim and none. I hate to project such a bleak picture, but this is what it is and what it's going to be now and in the near future.
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  #83  
Old 11-21-2017, 8:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bull Elk View Post
Most wardens care. This is their livelihood. Folks.....please wake up and smell the coffee. It's all politics. The Gov. appoints members of the state F&W Commission who are tasks with making fish and game policy. The majority of the state commission are not hunter or gun owner friendly. You want to see change in game laws? Elect the right people........however........our state is extremely liberal and the chance of electing a conservative Gov. and legislators who are hunter friendly is slim and none. I hate to project such a bleak picture, but this is what it is and what it's going to be now and in the near future.
I agree with BE. Substitute guns for fish and game policy in this paragraph and it's the same outlook for firearms.
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  #84  
Old 11-21-2017, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Bull Elk View Post
Most wardens care. This is their livelihood. Folks.....please wake up and smell the coffee. It's all politics. The Gov. appoints members of the state F&W Commission who are tasks with making fish and game policy. The majority of the state commission are not hunter or gun owner friendly. You want to see change in game laws? Elect the right people........however........our state is extremely liberal and the chance of electing a conservative Gov. and legislators who are hunter friendly is slim and none. I hate to project such a bleak picture, but this is what it is and what it's going to be now and in the near future.
Agreed. The biologists and wardens I've spoken with are hunters themselves and eagerly reveal their political constraints.

For the person touting the 40:1 doe/buck ratio -- where does that figure come from? I've seen as high as 15:1 or even 20:1 by some estimates but never something that extreme.

People & politicians have always been stupid. But their stupidity has more lasting & widespread consequences nowadays.

I still can't see why so many people advocate for such tight controls on wildlife numbers (prey or predator), as if it's a machine to be refined to our benefit. In the economic circles, we call that top-down central planning. These are the ideals of Marxism and its communist and socialist systems. It fails because we are too stupid and ignorant to understand what is going on enough to know the right course of action. Capitalism's strength comes from the admission of ignorance -- that the markets are organic systems that will adapt and evolve as needed by itself, not as dictated by mere mortals. Yet, here we are thinking we know the proper carrying capacity, the "right" number of lions, bears, coyotes, deer, squirrels, porcupines, whatever. I don't get it. Economies are far simpler than ecosystems and we can't even get that right.

The strength of the conservationist movement that started in the 20s with folks like Leopold was in its limitations (what they helped us avoid), not what they did. They helped us avoid taking too much game, exterminating species for sport, profit and genocidal agendas, etc.

Managing an ecosystem is a task for gods, not people. It seems to me that our domain is in cultivating attitudes and behaviors of respect, sacrifice, give/take relationships with the land. Thinking we know what's best for the earth seems like the worst form of idolatry -- setting ourselves as gods. But I guess we ate that fruit a long time ago and still haven't managed to shake off it's delusional effects yet.
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  #85  
Old 11-21-2017, 8:51 PM
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Being a liberal and aspiring hunter, this thread makes me angry, at liberals. Why are people so blind that they can't see that their ideals and ideas don't work in every part of the state. A great idea in San fran isn't necessarily a great idea for weaverville, Bluelake, or Redding. Why can't we separate these city managers from people who look after or wildlife?? People tell me that hunters would takeall the deer in one season if they ran the state, which is retarded.

Would a sailor sink their yacht just so they can have one cool sumarine ride? Would a soccer player score only goals his first game? No, they would be invested in making their later returns as large or larger than before. Just like all y'all are talking about.


As for wolves and lions, I like both. I think it would be nice to get more wolves, but i think mountain lions should be available for hunting even if limited on tags. Seems like they are getting back to historic levels anyway.

This thread is really interesting! Can't wait to bring these points up to some outdoorsy friends!

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  #86  
Old 11-22-2017, 2:42 PM
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Sounds like we need a sprong bear hunt.
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  #87  
Old 11-22-2017, 7:55 PM
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When they changed from fish and game to "wildlife" is the beginning of the end. When we can no longer hunt the animals they can't be considered game. They will just watch wildlife go extinct and blame it on hunting.
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  #88  
Old 11-23-2017, 6:59 AM
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When they changed from fish and game to "wildlife" is the beginning of the end. When we can no longer hunt the animals they can't be considered game. They will just watch wildlife go extinct and blame it on hunting.
Really??? watch them go extinct because of the word "wildlife"? OK I'm all ears so how about explaining that to me so I can understand how that works.

elk hunter
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  #89  
Old 11-23-2017, 8:21 AM
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Really??? watch them go extinct because of the word "wildlife"? OK I'm all ears so how about explaining that to me so I can understand how that works.



elk hunter


That's an I interesting take on my post.
No its psychological. When you change the public opinion that animals are no longer game, we don't hunt wildlife.
They will not go extinct but will be dwindled so low. Hunting won't be an option.
Why can a farmer get depredation permits for deer but can't eat them Fish and game tells them they need to bury the carcass. Poor logic and waste.

It will come from even less management
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  #90  
Old 11-23-2017, 9:47 AM
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Originally Posted by cam188 View Post
That's an I interesting take on my post.
No its psychological. When you change the public opinion that animals are no longer game, we don't hunt wildlife.
They will not go extinct but will be dwindled so low. Hunting won't be an option.
Why can a farmer get depredation permits for deer but can't eat them Fish and game tells them they need to bury the carcass. Poor logic and waste.

It will come from even less management
Interesting view you have there, but I don't think it's very good in practice. My example is Montana Fish and Game changed to Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks in 1979 notice the "Wildlife" part. Plenty of elk, deer and other game and the word wildlife didn't change much of anything except for the prices of tags and other such permits and licenses.

It's the mentality, practices and management in use that makes far more differences than just a word. More of a lifestyle and attitude of the people that live there than a word. I imagine damage hunt or a killing permit still has to go before a judge in Calif. and back when I saw some issued the property owner had to dress the game and turn it over to Fish and Game or a agent to process and distribute but maybe that has changed in the last 20 years or so. I would have to look into it to be sure.

Over all it's more about management, practices and the mentality of the people involved rather than a word or rumor. Get involved and do something about things rather than complain about it, I'm sure Bull Elk would love to have someone supporting him at the meetings. Have a great Thanks Giving
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  #91  
Old 11-23-2017, 1:07 PM
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What doe hunts? That's such a misnomer that local politics play into doe hunts. ALL deer hunts are regulated by the state fish and wildlife commission. Why on earth would anyone want a doe hunt anyway? We need MORE fawns, not less.
Just to clear things up DFW does have the power to propose antlerless deer hunts. However, since 1958, most county boards of supervisors have veto power. In other words, even if DFW thinks it is a good idea in a specific area, they can't implement the hunt without county approval. Below are a couple of links regarding that process.


https://californiaoutdoorsqas.com/20...-no-doe-hunts/

http://www.thepresstribune.com/artic...ocal-deer-hunt

On a side note, Fort Hunter Liggett uses antlerless hunts extensively. In my opinion, they have the best managed hunting south of the bay area. I am not saying antlerless hunts are appropriate everywhere. I am saying they are another game management tool which should be available to be used when appropriate.
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  #92  
Old 11-24-2017, 10:23 AM
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Just to clear things up DFW does have the power to propose antlerless deer hunts. However, since 1958, most county boards of supervisors have veto power. In other words, even if DFW thinks it is a good idea in a specific area, they can't implement the hunt without county approval. Below are a couple of links regarding that process.


https://californiaoutdoorsqas.com/20...-no-doe-hunts/

http://www.thepresstribune.com/artic...ocal-deer-hunt

On a side note, Fort Hunter Liggett uses antlerless hunts extensively. In my opinion, they have the best managed hunting south of the bay area. I am not saying antlerless hunts are appropriate everywhere. I am saying they are another game management tool which should be available to be used when appropriate.
Ya...I showed that earlier. BE won't even acknowledge.

I haven't hunted Liggett for deer...just quail. The requirement for bringing a gun on the property kinda soured me though. Not so much the documentation but the logistics.
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  #93  
Old 11-24-2017, 4:43 PM
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I haven't hunted Liggett for deer...just quail. The requirement for bringing a gun on the property kinda soured me though. Not so much the documentation but the logistics.
The weapons form is now done through the mail and has no expiration date. Much easier than when they first started requiring it. The hunt permit requires one trip to the base for a photo id. After that, you can sign in/out over the internet with your phone/home computer. I actually prefer this system to the old way of going to the game shack daily and waiting in line to sign in before heading to a hunt area.
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  #94  
Old 11-24-2017, 11:56 PM
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No !!! There should be moratorium on stupid politicians dictating policy based on their political agendas and let the Dept of Fish and Game do their job , managing the states natural resources.
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  #95  
Old 11-25-2017, 9:28 AM
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No !!! There should be moratorium on stupid politicians dictating policy based on their political agendas and let the Dept of Fish and Game do their job , managing the states natural resources.
Your absolutely right, but I can guarantee you will not like the outcome.
Let me hit some highlights if Fish and wildlife became a viable and responsible management unit. First off the biologist will take an extensive survey of the states wildlife numbers vs habitat support. Then they’ll go in front of the commission and request that there is only a single draw/ single tag foe every unit per person. This means no archery tag along with a general tag, no two tags for general either. Then they will limit the tags per unit to actually sustain herd numbers, this means that some units will have maybe 1-2 tags while others have 100’s, guess where everyone is going to apply. If by any chance there are tags left over from the lottery, you can reapply for leftover tags for the waiting battle all over again. Also be prepared for more stringent requirements such as for deer four points (per beam) or better so that only mature bucks are pulled.
Elk could be 5 points or better not including brow tines. And the biggie, the elimination of landowner permits.
Like I said these are current implantations in other states that have strong management practices. For me personally, I think it would do good, but alas California is all about control over its populace and the siphoning of its contributions into a general fund for whatever popular pet project of the day may be.
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  #96  
Old 11-25-2017, 12:43 PM
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Agreed. The biologists and wardens I've spoken with are hunters themselves and eagerly reveal their political constraints.

For the person touting the 40:1 doe/buck ratio -- where does that figure come from? I've seen as high as 15:1 or even 20:1 by some estimates but never something that extreme.
I qualified it a bit when i first said it full disclosure, "What i'm seeing" on the part of the range i hunt.

But that was years ago and it would be a neat trick to see 40 deer there anymore.
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  #97  
Old 11-25-2017, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Irishfisher View Post
The weapons form is now done through the mail and has no expiration date. Much easier than when they first started requiring it. The hunt permit requires one trip to the base for a photo id. After that, you can sign in/out over the internet with your phone/home computer. I actually prefer this system to the old way of going to the game shack daily and waiting in line to sign in before heading to a hunt area.
No expiration date now? That's huge. Was a PITA to do that every year and added to the lead time. Still not a fan of having to declare which weapon I intend to bring. I've got several and often like to bring a spare. Some have no paper trail and I don't like documenting them as such.

I did experience the newer phone system. That was much nicer when you wanted to change areas.
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  #98  
Old 11-26-2017, 12:15 AM
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Shorten up the seasons and tag. Limit on size; need to be 3x3 and up. Too many people are too desperate for meat and killing "barely" legal buck. Too many attitude, "oh if I don't kill that small forky, someone else will."

Many other reasons out there too but I wont get into it.
I agree with the size limit, but they've already made it especially difficult to take a "legal" deer since playing with the season dates. Our seasons got bumped up about a month, when it's damn hot and your chances of tagging are dismal. The average is only 10% -11%, for ALL tags, and that includes both private guided and public land hunts.

I strongly believe the problem is mismanagement of license / tag funds for things other than herd management. Pig tags are $22 and DFG does absolutely nothing to enrich Ca for that supposed "big game" animal. We have arguably the highest resident fishing and hunting licenses in the nation. States with far far less revenue for their programs have outstanding fishing and hunting and don't seem to have our problems. Just like our new gas taxes and registration fee increases to add to our already sky high taxes. What are we getting in return? Corruption in this state is at an all time high and getting worse each year under the stranglehold of idiocy we're surrounded by.
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  #99  
Old 11-26-2017, 9:58 AM
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I agree with the size limit, but they've already made it especially difficult to take a "legal" deer since playing with the season dates. Our seasons got bumped up about a month, when it's damn hot and your chances of tagging are dismal. The average is only 10% -11%, for ALL tags, and that includes both private guided and public land hunts.

I strongly believe the problem is mismanagement of license / tag funds for things other than herd management. Pig tags are $22 and DFG does absolutely nothing to enrich Ca for that supposed "big game" animal. We have arguably the highest resident fishing and hunting licenses in the nation. States with far far less revenue for their programs have outstanding fishing and hunting and don't seem to have our problems. Just like our new gas taxes and registration fee increases to add to our already sky high taxes. What are we getting in return? Corruption in this state is at an all time high and getting worse each year under the stranglehold of idiocy we're surrounded by.
Hunting/fishing is a "sideline" for DFW anymore. It's not about the hunters/fishermen who pay for it. It's about the "ecosystem". Not a terrible concept on it's own, but as executed we get the short end of the stick.
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  #100  
Old 11-26-2017, 10:04 AM
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Or an open Lion season


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  #101  
Old 11-26-2017, 11:51 AM
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I think that if the season were closed it would never open again...


Just like there is no such thing as a temporary.


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  #102  
Old 11-26-2017, 5:32 PM
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Or an open Lion season


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Only possible by the vote of the people. It was an initiative.
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  #103  
Old 11-27-2017, 9:49 AM
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mulies1.jpg

mulies2.jpg

mulies3.jpgAnyone see the dead migrating bucks that slid into the rocks at Bishop and Shepard passes? Somewhere around 200 dead bucks.

The holdover snow from last year in the passes had glazed over and the deer simply slid into the boulders.
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  #104  
Old 11-27-2017, 9:54 AM
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Oh wow! Lemming deer?
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  #105  
Old 11-27-2017, 12:43 PM
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I've seen those pics about 3x now in the last week or so including one commenter said that the pics were old.
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  #106  
Old 11-27-2017, 12:55 PM
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I believe that the last pic is older (not the same age the top two I posted).

This is a periodic phenomenon and it did happen last week in Bishop and Shepard passes. CDFW officials from the Bishop office have made statements regarding last weeks' finds:

http://sierrabighorn.blogspot.com/20...s-in-high.html
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  #107  
Old 11-27-2017, 5:03 PM
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I believe that the last pic is older (not the same age the top two I posted).

This is a periodic phenomenon and it did happen last week in Bishop and Shepard passes. CDFW officials from the Bishop office have made statements regarding last weeks' finds:

http://sierrabighorn.blogspot.com/20...s-in-high.html
Glowball warming would eliminate that hazard. Do it for the deer.
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  #108  
Old 11-27-2017, 6:39 PM
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Or an open Lion season


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THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Too bad. This state is lost on many counts. Hunting is just one of them. Really sad. A Lion season would help, big time, but, ain't happening.
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  #109  
Old 11-28-2017, 7:08 PM
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Since 2000, about 100 mountain lions are killed annually through depredation permits. I would guess that 5 times that many are killed illegally. That isn't even significantly slowing the growth of the population. DFW estimated the population at 5000 in the mid 1990's. Another population study is underway as of 2014. No doubt in my mind that an honest study would show a significantly increased population. Using that data for responsible game management will not happen in this state which allows emotional policy making to overrule sound biology.

https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Conserva...on/Depredation

https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/conserva...-in-california
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