#42
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With the interstate transfer law recently deemed unconstitutional can I buy a CA legal Rimfire rifle in Nevada since CA prices and availability are crap? Also would the 10 day waiting period be used since its bought in NV?
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#43
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The decision (Mance v Holder) would change that, so a FFL dealer can transfer a firearm (handgun, other, rifle, shotgun) to a non-resident, as long as the transfer complies with both the State laws of the FFL dealer and the non-resident. This decision does not change the fact it will still be Federal felonies for residents of different States to transfer firearms without the use of a FFL. Therefore... If the decision is upheld and goes into effect, as a CA resident, any firearm acquired in another State needs to be done in a method that complies with CA laws and the State laws of the FFL dealer. Current CA laws [PC 27585], requires any firearm acquired by a CA resident in another State to be transferred to them through a CA FFL dealer in order to be legally imported into CA. So, unless CA laws change, a CA resident may be able to acquire a firearm from a FFL dealer in another State but they will need to keep that firearm in that other State and never bring it to CA, unless it is transferred through a CA FFL dealer.
__________________
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001). Last edited by Quiet; 02-14-2015 at 11:29 PM.. |
#44
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That doesn't change anything here in California. That decision was reached by a District Court judge in a matter before that court. For the moment, that's a far as the holding reaches. Should the government appeal (its a pretty sure bet that they will), then the Fifth Circuit will hear the case. If they publish their decision, then it will only reach Fifth Circuit. It still will not do anything for California. If the Fifth Circuit decision is appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, and if the court agrees to hear the case, and if the Supreme Court rules in favor of Mr. Mance, then we'll have something that is authoritative in California. Please count up the number of "ifs" that have to occur, and then consider the glacial time-line required for all of that to occur. Short answer: No, you cannot simply buy a rimfire rifle in Nevada and bring it back to California. If you're a dual-resident, you may proceed as Quiet has suggested above, but I doubt that you would be saving any money after paying the California FFL. Last edited by RickD427; 02-15-2015 at 12:10 PM.. |
#45
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I think it has been covered, but just want to make 100% sure. A family member resident in another state may gift an off roster pistol to their CA resident relative through a CA FFL? Any difference if friend instead of family from another state? Thanks much.
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#46
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Yes there is a difference - intrafamilial transfers are roster-exempt; other out-of-state transfers are not.
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#47
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A New Scenario?
Here's a weird scenario that I didn't see covered in the thread, but is in fact a real case:
Joe Doe bought a long gun (legal in CA) in CA in the 1980s. Joe gave that rifle to his son, John, at that time. No paperwork was done. But John let Joe keep the gun in Joe's possession. 30 years later when Joe dies, John does not take back the rifle, but asks his brother Jack, who lives in NV, to hold on to it, and Jack takes it back to NV. Two years later, John wants his rifle back. The rifle has technically been John's since the 1980s. True? Is it legally still John's rifle? Is there a legal way for John to take back possession of his rifle? If so, can Jack just ship the rifle to John? Does Jack have to ship it to a CA FFL? What if John drives to NV to pick up his rifle? Would that be legal? Thanks for your insights! |
#48
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4) Probably not true 5) No 6) that would be the legal way to do a NV --> CA transfer 7) No, not legal. Please remember, as clearly explained by Fiddletown in another post this morning, Federal gun laws are really concerned with possession.
__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 06-06-2015 at 1:53 PM.. |
#50
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It was my understanding that as a CA resident, I could NOT go to a different state and buy a G43 (LEO only in CA) or Walther PPS (not on roster) and have it shipped directly to my CA FFL, wait the 10 days, go through whatever paperwork I need and take possession.
And yet, that's what it says in one of the early posts on this thread. Am I just wrong about this? If so, can you point me to the CA code where it indicates that I could buy a handgun this way? I'm near Tahoe, so if that's true, I can simply go to NV, buy the off roster handgun, have it shipped to CA FFL and pick it up. I've always thought that it MUST BE on CA roster regardless of whether you buy the handgun IN California or another state. Is that not correct?
__________________
U.S. Army SGT 3ID 1st BN 30th IN Veteran DAV '84-'88 (Germany) | G43, P99C, PPS / PPQ M1 (Classic), HK P2000 War Is a Racket by Two-time Medal of Honor recipient, USMC MG Smedley Butler Best Place to Retire |
#51
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Nothing in this thread suggests one can get off-Roster handguns by buying out of state; one must still be exempt from the Roster (e.g. LEO), or use a transaction exempt from the Roster (e.g. intrafamilial) or buy a gun itself exempt from the Roster (e.g. C&R). See also post 3 in this thread.
__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#52
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Well, I guess I'll just let lease expire, move out of CA for a few months, establish residency elsewhere, buy the firearms (off CA roster) that I want and then move back in 6-9 months re-establishing CA residency.
Thank goodness there are 49 other States! Now, to find out which of those 49 States have the shortest residency requirements, get an apartment, driver's license, voting registration and part-time minimum wage job should do it.
__________________
U.S. Army SGT 3ID 1st BN 30th IN Veteran DAV '84-'88 (Germany) | G43, P99C, PPS / PPQ M1 (Classic), HK P2000 War Is a Racket by Two-time Medal of Honor recipient, USMC MG Smedley Butler Best Place to Retire |
#53
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As far as I know, other states require you to be there for at least 6 months before acquiring residency. In Nevada, you have residency as soon as you claim you do AND Nevada doesn't have income tax :-)
https://www.leg.state.nv.us/Division.../Residency.pdf
__________________
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." -Ronald Reagan *Disclaimer: I'm no lawyer. So don't take my advice as counsel. |
#54
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It seems to me that the gun is the buyers property when the seller accepts payment in most cases of this sort of interaction. Or is this still TBD in court? (No I don't want to be the test case) Quote:
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#55
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A dealer cannot sell/transfer an off-Roster handgun unless the buyer/transferee is exempt - essentially LEO. But it's perfectly legal for a FFL to sell off-Roster to LEOs. A PPT, where one CA resident sells to another CA resident, is an exempt-from-the-Roster transaction. CA FFLs understand that (well, most of them). You're free to make the off-Roster handgun purchase out of state - but FedLaw requires the handgun be transferred trough an FFL in your state of residence. Legal sale in, say, KY, but the CA FFL cannot transfer to you unless you are exempt. And further Roster discussion belongs in its own thread. It'll close quickly - really nothing new to say. See the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/The_Safe_Handgun_List
__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 08-20-2015 at 3:26 PM.. |
#56
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All this is making my head hurt but, if I understand it, I should be good if:
1. I live most of the time in California but, I live part of the time in WA and have a WA ID card. Also, have a WA CCW permit. If when in WA I purchase an off-roster gun, can I return to CA with that gun and register it? 2. If while visiting my mother in WA she gives me a off-roster gun, can I return to CA and register it? I believe the answer to both should be yes, please confirm with your opinion.
__________________
State of Jefferson = Liberty, Representation, Fiscal Responsibility, Opportunity = Much More than Just a State of Mind |
#57
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Librarian,
I have a question that I don't believe has been answered. Can one go to a class in another state on building your own firearm for personal use, say a 1911, complete the class and bring the newly built firearm back to California? Thanks for any clarification.
__________________
Quote:
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#58
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Short answer: Violates Federal laws, unless multiple FFLs are involved. In addition... The firearm needs to be CA legal and, if the firearm is a handgun, it needs to be on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale or be exempt from it. |
#59
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As a dual resident of CA & WA, you can legally acquire an off-Roster handgun in WA but you can not legally bring it to CA. Starting 01-01-2015, a firearm acquired out-of-state by a CA resident or by a dual resident of CA needs to be transferred through a CA FFL dealer in order to be legally brought into CA. [PC 27585(a)] Currently, there are no exemptions that will allow an off-Roster non-exempt handgun to be transferred in compliance with this. Failure to comply equates to one misdemeanor per long gun and one felony per handgun. [PC 27590(a)&(c)(7)] Penal Code 27585 (a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2. Penal Code 27590 (a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), (c), or (e), a violation of this article is a misdemeanor. (c) If any of the following circumstances apply, a violation of this article shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170, or by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment. (7) A violation of Section 27585 involving a handgun.
__________________
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001). Last edited by Quiet; 12-16-2015 at 10:08 AM.. |
#60
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I'll admit that Penal Code section 27585 is more than a little bit confusing, but I'm not so sure that it prohibits a California FFL from transferring an off-roster handgun to a dual resident. You've very correctly cited the applicable law. If the OP is a "dual-resident" then he is clearly bound by the provisions of PC 27585 and must deliver the handgun to a California FFL (before bringing it into the state) for transfer. The transfer must comply with Penal Code section 27540 and Articles 1 and 2 of Division 6, Title 4, Part 6 of Penal Code (or in simpler terms Penal Code sections 27540 and 26700-26915). You are also correct that there is no exemption within those Penal Code sections that would permit the transfer of an off-roster handgun, but it's also really important to note that there is no prohibition contained in those Penal Sections that prohibits the transfer of an off-roster handgun. The prohibition on an FFL selling an off-roster handgun is contained in Penal Code section 32000. Section 32000 is not within the range of Penal Code sections that are embraced by PC 27585. PC 32000 prohibits an FFL (along with anyone else) from the following: "manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun..." Interestingly, PC 32000 does not prohibit the "transfer" of an unsafe handgun. Has anyone received any guidance from DOJ on the application of PC 27585 to off-roster handguns? |
#61
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So, it could be an underground regulation or an oversight on CA DOJ's part. In any case, bottom line, it's currently a no-go. |
#62
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// Copied from another thread - this looks at the law from the 'other side', leaving CA guns
// with a person in another state. It's still the same law. // // Librarian // Someone in another State having possession of "your" gun is highly problematic under federal law. The federal laws relating to the transfer of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another (i. e., the Gun Control Act of 1968 or GCA68) are about physical possession, not ownership. GCA68 was Congress' responding to enormous public pressure after the assassinations by gunfire of three wildly popular public figures -- JFK, RFK and MLK. The law was intended to regulate and control the interstate transfer of firearms. It was structured so that to the extent reasonably possible any transfer of possession of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another would have to go through an FFL. And in the context of the concerns intended to be addressed by Congress through GCA68, it's possession and not ownership that matters. Someone who has a gun in his possession can use it, whether or not he has legal title to it. Letting someone have possession of your gun in that person's State of residence will be considered a transfer. It certainly is under federal law, and would also most likely be also considered a transfer under state laws. That's just what "transfer" means.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper Last edited by Librarian; 12-13-2016 at 2:28 PM.. |
#63
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Sorry if this has been covered before:
Can I, as a CA resident, in the process of applying for CR/COE permits, purchase a 50 yo Garand rifle out of state and keep it out of state at my folks house until such time that my CR/COE is valid and then transfer back to me in CA and register it? thanks Last edited by jks67ss396; 02-16-2017 at 9:36 AM.. |
#64
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We've had multiple threads on both interstate transfers and storing guns with someone in another State. Everything discussed in those threads continues to apply to you, just like everyone else, until your 03 FFL and COE are issued to you.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
#65
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IOW, does it matter who pays? |
#66
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He wants the rifle for himself. If he provides the money and the family member completes the 4473 for the sole purpose of temporarily taking custody of the rifle until be can transfer it to jks67ss396, the family member is not the actual transferee. He is obtaining the rifle on behalf of jks67ss396, as jks67ss396's agent; and it would thus be an illegal straw purchase.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
#67
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Ok, so that seems to conflict with what Quiet posted on 2/15/15 in this thread...He response below seems like i could keep the gun (which is legal to own in CA) in the other state without issue and when i want to transfer back to CA, I would use my then (months from now) permitted CR/COE to transfer without the 3rd party FFL. PC27585 doesnt seem to say anything contrary.
Is that correct? Quiets response: "Therefore... If the decision is upheld and goes into effect, as a CA resident, any firearm acquired in another State needs to be done in a method that complies with CA laws and the State laws of the FFL dealer. Current CA laws [PC 27585], requires any firearm acquired by a CA resident in another State to be transferred to them through a CA FFL dealer in order to be legally imported into CA. So, unless CA laws change, a CA resident may be able to acquire a firearm from a FFL dealer in another State but they will need to keep that firearm in that other State and never bring it to CA, unless it is transferred through a CA FFL dealer." |
#68
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__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
#69
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I was not asking on his behalf specifically. I'm considering a thank-you gift to my brother with no intent to go and get the firearm later. It was my belief that this is completely legal as long as all I supply is the money and he is the actual owner and is the 4473 transferee. Sort of like when my Dad gave me a deer rifle all those years ago. I know, it's a different world now. |
#70
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The safer way to do that, cvigue, is to give your brother cash or a gift certificate in the amount of the firearm and let your brother buy it. If you buy it, you have to put your name down as the buyer. Then, when you give it to your brother, you have a second transfer by FFL.
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#71
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dual residency rifle purchase?
Fellaz, i'm still new to this forum so pls bear with me but i live in CA and AZ (secondary home). Can i buy a "CA compliant" bolt rifle in AZ and bring it into CA? I have CA DL as well as AZ DL. I see most of the posts are related to handguns. Thx fellaz!
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#73
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You will have to pay shipping fees, FFL transfer fees, CA DROS fees, and a CA use tax. Failure to utilize a CA FFL dealer to import the firearms you acquire in another State equates to a misdemeanor per long gun [PC 27590(a)] and a felony per handgun [PC 27590(c)(7)]. Penal Code 27585 (a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2. Penal Code 27590 (a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), (c), or (e), a violation of this article is a misdemeanor. (c) If any of the following circumstances apply, a violation of this article shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170, or by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment. (7) A violation of Section 27585 involving a handgun. |
#75
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Where you CAN buy a gun out of state is if you have residence in that state as defined by Federal Law. Catch is guns must never be brought to CA unless you do it through an FFL. From Quiet's post:
State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition: Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y. The example above applies to me. I live here in CA and have a home in another state. That state will issue a state ID (not drivers licenses) to people who own property and spend time there on weekends, summer, etc. This would allow me to legally purchase firearms in that state, just not bring them here to California. This is fine with me as I maintain most of my collection out of state now. In a few years, my entire family, guns included are moving from CA. Last edited by PSLguy; 10-26-2017 at 7:31 PM.. Reason: To clarify |
#76
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FYI.
As more and more States become REAL ID compliant. (currently, 35 are compliant and 15 are on their final extensions) Federal laws/regulations prohibits a person from having more than one REAL ID compliant DL or ID card. [6 CFR 37.29] As evident with CA DMV "Federal Limits apply" DL/ID card and acquiring firearms from CA FFL dealers fiasco, having another States non-REAL ID compliant ID may no longer be valid for acquiring firearms from that States FFL dealer. 6 CFR 37.29 (a) An individual may hold only one REAL ID card. An individual cannot hold a REAL ID driver's license and a REAL ID identification card simultaneously. Nothing shall preclude an individual from holding a REAL ID card and a non-REAL ID card unless prohibited by his or her State. (b) Prior to issuing a REAL ID driver's license, (1) A State must check with all other States to determine if the applicant currently holds a driver's license or REAL ID identification card in another State. (2) If the State receives confirmation that the individual holds a driver's license in another State, or possesses a REAL ID identification card in another State, the receiving State must take measures to confirm that the person has terminated or is terminating the driver's license or REAL ID identification card issued by the prior State pursuant to State law, regulation or procedure. (c) Prior to issuing a REAL ID identification card, (1) A State must check with all other States to determine if the applicant currently holds a REAL ID driver's license or identification card in another State. (2) If the State receives confirmation that the individual holds a REAL ID card in another State the receiving State must take measures to confirm that the person has terminated or is terminating the REAL ID driver's license or identification card issued by the prior State pursuant to State law, regulation or procedure.
__________________
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001). Last edited by Quiet; 10-20-2018 at 3:26 AM.. |
#78
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The method of how it is delivered is dependent upon the receiving FFL. So, you need to contact the FFL doing the transfer and ask them, how they want it delivered to them. |
#79
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#80
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If you transfer the firearm outside of CA, then CA DOJ will not know about it. You can voluntarily submit a Notice of No Longer In Possession (BOF 4546) to CA DOJ, in order to give them updated info. ^You will need the out-of-state FFL's info and the out-of-state transferee's info. Note that all that the submission does is alter the firearm's record to show that you are now the previous owner and lists the out-of-state transferee as the current owner. |
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