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  #161  
Old 06-01-2014, 9:42 PM
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Hi all -

I am fairly certain this is the case since 01/01/2014 but your help are appreciated.
My understanding a non C&R (FFL03) / COE license carrier can no longer buy C&R long rifle without going through a FFL01 dealer even if the seller has a C&R (FFL03) license. Is this correct?
As much as I want to purchase a rifle from a fellow calgunner, I want to make sure to not make any mistake.
Thanks.
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  #162  
Old 06-01-2014, 9:52 PM
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If the buyer has both a 03FFL and COE then you can still sell C&R long guns to them cash and carry, no 01 FFL required.. It is up to the buyer 03FFL/COE holder to self register it afterwards.
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  #163  
Old 06-02-2014, 9:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagerifle View Post
Ok, so I'm unclear with the new rules this year, maybe you guys can help.
NOTE: My interests are exclusively with old lever action rifles.

My understanding is that within California, no matter how old the rifle, I now need to go through an FFL to buy a lever action rifle correct?

It is also my understanding that if I visit Montana, and find an old lever action rifle at a dealer that I want to buy, I must have it sent to my California FFL, correct?

It is my understanding that I cannot buy a rifle from an individual, out of state, correct?

C
First Q:
If the rifle you are buying was made in 1898 or earlier, it is an antique and you do not need to go through an FFL. The only exception would be buying it from a California 01FFL dealer who entered it in his books for whatever reason, then you would need to DROS it to purchase it. If you are buying from a regular citizen, then you are good to go on an Antique.
Second Q:
If you apply for an 03FFL, you can go to any state and buy a C&R rifle or pistol and bring it back here. You have to mail in a form and $19 to register it after importing it here. Unfortunately, not all out of state dealers/pawn shops/individuals understand the law so you will encounter some idiots who refuse to honor the license, but that is just something you have to deal with. After you educate yourself, you can sometimes persuade other with a little educating... but sometimes they will not listen.
Third Q:
Same as above, if you have an 03FFL you can go out of state and buy a C&R from anyone who will sell it to you... gun store, individual, etc it doesn't matter. You can't buy modern unless you go through an FFL and have it shipped here, etc.
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  #164  
Old 06-02-2014, 9:13 AM
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As Flyin Brian said...

I believe you can either transport your curio and relic across state lines and then self register, now even for long guns, or you can mail it to yourself from Montana and still self register.

Reason to get a COE now is that you now have to have both to have rifles shipped to your door step, or to cash and carry. Before it was enough to have an 03 FFL to have C&R rifles shipped, but that is no more.

Flyin Brian, do you know if the mailing part is correct?

Last edited by MosinVirus; 06-02-2014 at 9:19 AM..
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  #165  
Old 06-02-2014, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyin Brian View Post
First Q:
If the rifle you are buying was made in 1898 or earlier, it is an antique and you do not need to go through an FFL. The only exception would be buying it from a California 01FFL dealer who entered it in his books for whatever reason, then you would need to DROS it to purchase it. If you are buying from a regular citizen, then you are good to go on an Antique.
This is outstanding news, as almost everything I am interested in is 1898 or earlier! Am I required to register the antique in California when I return?

Also, interesting comments on mailing it to myself back in California. That might be preferable to carrying it around in my truck for 3 weeks.

C
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  #166  
Old 06-02-2014, 11:57 AM
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Hmm... reading the regs on antiques...
So, for example:
Say a 1886 Winchester dated to 1894, chambered for .45-70 Government
Does that count as an antique? Does the fact that .45-70 ammunition is available disqualify it?

C
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  #167  
Old 06-02-2014, 11:08 PM
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A Winchester Model 1886 chambered in 45-70 and manufactured in 1898 is an antique that is exempt from federal and California dealer transfer requirements. It is also exempt from California's registration law.

A Winchester Model 1886 chambered in 45-70 and manufactured in 1899 is not an antique.
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  #168  
Old 06-04-2014, 8:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagerifle View Post
Hmm... reading the regs on antiques...
So, for example:
Say a 1886 Winchester dated to 1894, chambered for .45-70 Government
Does that count as an antique? Does the fact that .45-70 ammunition is available disqualify it?

C
It is my understanding that the whole "Modern Ammunition" thing only applies to replicas. I have been subjected to this term while attempting to purchase a legitimate antique rifle a few years ago, and I was not prepared to defend my position, so I had to walk away from a good deal because the Seller (an 01FFL gun store) was misinformed on the law. I came home and researched it and figured I would be ready for the next time I encountered this. Unfortunately, I had to refresh my memory again this morning because I had already forgotten the details

I believe this is the relevant code that applies to this term:

pasted from this page on the ATF website: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/col...que-definition
Q: What qualifies as an antique firearm?
As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means —

any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —
is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
The code I pasted above leads me to believe that the "Modern Ammunition" phrase isn't even in the law, and the "not readily available" thing only applies to whether a replica can be considered an antique, and has nothing to do with a firearm that was made prior to 1899.

Am I interpreting this correctly?
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  #169  
Old 06-04-2014, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyin Brian View Post
It is my understanding that the whole "Modern Ammunition" thing only applies to replicas. ...

The code I pasted above leads me to believe that the "Modern Ammunition" phrase isn't even in the law, and the "not readily available" thing only applies to whether a replica can be considered an antique, and has nothing to do with a firearm that was made prior to 1899.

Am I interpreting this correctly?
Reading it again, I think you have this right, but would love to hear it proclaimed by one of the experts.

Carl
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  #170  
Old 06-04-2014, 3:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyin Brian View Post
...Am I interpreting this correctly?
Yes, you've got it.

I should add that this only applies to GCA (Title I) firearms. For NFA (Title II) firearms the "modern ammunition" thing applies even for stuff made before 1899.
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  #171  
Old 06-04-2014, 4:58 PM
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I'm trying to get up to speed with the C&R regulations in CA since it has been a few years since I was there last.

With the new requirements this year concerning a COE in addition to an FFL03, is there much point in having just the FFL03 without the COE?

From what I'm seeing, there isn't except for perhaps being able to buy a C&R in another state and taking it back with you. Is that correct or am I missing something?
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  #172  
Old 06-05-2014, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SQLGeek View Post
I'm trying to get up to speed with the C&R regulations in CA since it has been a few years since I was there last.

With the new requirements this year concerning a COE in addition to an FFL03, is there much point in having just the FFL03 without the COE?

From what I'm seeing, there isn't except for perhaps being able to buy a C&R in another state and taking it back with you. Is that correct or am I missing something?
Buying while out of state and the discounts some vendors give are the only two reasons for a Californian to get a C&R FFL without a COE. Some guys have a pretty good system set up where they buy stuff and have it shipped to an 01 FFL in Nevada and then drive over to pick it all up a few times a year.
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  #173  
Old 06-11-2014, 1:01 PM
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Thanks for the clarification. So there is some utility in having one at least.
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  #174  
Old 09-03-2014, 9:45 AM
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Default Estate sale guns

Can someone please explain what these CA "Estate" Sale companies are doing selling 50+ year old long guns and hand guns (pistols/revolvers) cash and carry no docs.

Sometimes the firearms are not even 50 years old. Do Estate companies have some sort of eligibility to sell firearms without FFL dealer and transfers?

How do you register any firearm if you do ever purchase a cash and carry from an Estate Sale then?
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  #175  
Old 11-13-2014, 10:00 AM
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Clarification needed here.

IF I am out of state and find a C&R eligible firearm, I can buy it with a C&R FFL, correct?

Reason I ask is I was at a dealer that said due to CA law he could not sell me a C&R firearm even with an 03 FFL due to blah blah blah CA regulations blah blah blah CADOJ says blah blah
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  #176  
Old 11-13-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by cdtx2001 View Post
Clarification needed here.

IF I am out of state and find a C&R eligible firearm, I can buy it with a C&R FFL, correct?

Reason I ask is I was at a dealer that said due to CA law he could not sell me a C&R firearm even with an 03 FFL due to blah blah blah CA regulations blah blah blah CADOJ says blah blah
Quick answer, yes. No COE required out of state when doing FTF.

Unfortunately, that dealer was misinformed. CADOJ cannot regulate FFL's outside of their jurisdiction, which is confined to the state of CA. What you do outside of CA is none of their business. When you return to CA with said C&R, then you, not the out of state selling FFL, have to deal with CA reporting/registration requirements. A quick call to the sellers ATF inspector probably would have solved the problem.
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  #177  
Old 11-13-2014, 7:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdtx2001 View Post
...Reason I ask is I was at a dealer that said due to CA law he could not sell me a C&R firearm even with an 03 FFL due to blah blah blah CA regulations blah blah blah CADOJ says blah blah
Often it helps to show the out of state FFL a copy of Form BOF 4100A. Right on the back of the form it explains how California C&R FFLs have to report C&R firearms that they acquire out of state. If the dealer is really just confused or overly cautious about California law then seeing that form might help him change his mind about making the sale. But if he's being an anti-California dickweed then he'll just come up with another excuse.
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  #178  
Old 11-15-2014, 7:39 PM
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So, if I purchase a C&R on the internet from a C&R collector in another state, which form should I use to report it? The one for "In-State" aquisition (BOF961) or Curio or Relic Firearm Report (BOF4100A). The second one is required if I "obtain curio or relic firearms WHILE out of state", but I didn't actually travel out of state to get it. On the other hand, the "in-State" form implies that I purchased it from a California resident. Technically, i took possession of the rifle in-State, so should I use the BOF961 form?
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  #179  
Old 11-15-2014, 9:30 PM
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Originally Posted by senia View Post
So, if I purchase a C&R on the internet from a C&R collector in another state, which form should I use to report it? The one for "In-State" aquisition (BOF961) or Curio or Relic Firearm Report (BOF4100A). The second one is required if I "obtain curio or relic firearms WHILE out of state", but I didn't actually travel out of state to get it. On the other hand, the "in-State" form implies that I purchased it from a California resident. Technically, i took possession of the rifle in-State, so should I use the BOF961 form?
You are taking physical possession in CA, so it would be considered an in state acquisition and you would use form BOF961.
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  #180  
Old 11-16-2014, 9:27 AM
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Thanks, that is what I was thinking too.

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Originally Posted by six seven tango View Post
You are taking physical possession in CA, so it would be considered an in state acquisition and you would use form BOF961.
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  #181  
Old 12-02-2014, 2:14 PM
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I'm in Virginia. My friend is selling a C&R rifle to a California resident. The buyer sent a copy of his 03 FFL and said to ship it the address on the FFL. I told my my friend that it has to go to a dealer, but I just read this thread and I forgot about the COE. I don't know if the buyer has one, but if he does, then it's okay to send directly to him?
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  #182  
Old 12-02-2014, 2:53 PM
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Default California

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Originally Posted by rromeo View Post
I'm in Virginia. My friend is selling a C&R rifle to a California resident. The buyer sent a copy of his 03 FFL and said to ship it the address on the FFL. I told my my friend that it has to go to a dealer, but I just read this thread and I forgot about the COE. I don't know if the buyer has one, but if he does, then it's okay to send directly to him?
The COE is a California thing.

From what I can gather; California does have restrictions of all transfers for handguns, (C&R or not) across state borders. This is primarily the reason why all those C&R Internet dealers will NOT ship ANY handguns, (C&R or no), to anyone who does not possess a TYPE-01 FFL.

Once a C&R transfer, (FOR LONG GUNS), is done across California State border; then it is up to the one who takes possession, (the California Resident), to have the COE and to file the proper paper work to 'ahem' ... register the firearm to the overlords ... (CADOJ) in Sacramento.
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  #183  
Old 12-05-2014, 2:59 PM
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Can two CA residents who BOTH have Type 03 but WITHOUT a COE do a face-to-face transfer without involving a Type 01 FFL?
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  #184  
Old 12-05-2014, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 8200rpm View Post
Can two CA residents who BOTH have Type 03 but WITHOUT a COE do a face-to-face transfer without involving a Type 01 FFL?
We'll assume you are talking about a C&R long gun...

The licence status of the seller doesn't matter. If the transfer happens inside California then the C&R FFL who is receiving the C&R long gun needs a COE. If the transfer happens outside California then the C&R FFL receiving the C&R firearm does not need a COE.
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  #185  
Old 12-27-2014, 5:31 PM
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Does the one gun a month rule still NOT apply with 03 and COE still?
This would be for modern and C&R pistols...
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  #186  
Old 02-03-2015, 7:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté View Post
If you want to avoid the 1 handgun per 30 days restriction when buying both modern and C&R handguns from a California Licensed Dealer, then you need to have a COE in addition to your C&R FFL.
And you have to find a CA dealer that has a clue. Many LGS near me don't know squat about the exemption.
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  #187  
Old 03-06-2015, 10:15 AM
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Default new question?

is there a competitive site for someone that wants to get their C&R and FFL03 licence? I want to bite the bullet and do this but feel over whelmed when reading this thread.

thanks
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  #188  
Old 03-06-2015, 2:07 PM
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is there a competitive site for someone that wants to get their C&R and FFL03 licence? I want to bite the bullet and do this but feel over whelmed when reading this thread.

thanks
I posted a comprehensive guide for the TYPE-03, (C&R) FFL over at 2A Munitions.

I will look up here at Calguns to see if I did the corresponding COE thing.
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  #189  
Old 03-06-2015, 2:12 PM
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Default Calguns COE help

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Originally Posted by tekno View Post
is there a competitive site for someone that wants to get their C&R and FFL03 licence? I want to bite the bullet and do this but feel over whelmed when reading this thread.

thanks
I asked for help about the California COE ... and as usual, the Calguns community came through!

This thread has pretty much all the answers you need to effectively go through with getting your California permission slip ... (COE)
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  #190  
Old 03-06-2015, 6:10 PM
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thanks krwada
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  #191  
Old 03-10-2015, 10:43 AM
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Just need a lil clarification. Im a c&r holder and have a valid coe. I was told by doj that all c&r longguns have to be shipped/dros'd thru an ffl01, and then I can bypass the 10-day wait. In other words, i cannot have c&r longguns shipped to me directly any longer...is this correct? I called a few of the online dealers ive purchased from in the past and both stated they were unaware of such a change (i know its my responsibility to know) and routinely ship longguns to Ca c&r holders.

Last edited by jl1252; 03-10-2015 at 11:20 AM..
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  #192  
Old 03-10-2015, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jl1252 View Post
Just need a lil clarification. Im a c&r holder and have a valid coe. I was told by doj that all c&r longguns have to be shipped/dros'd thru an ffl01, and then I can bypass the 10-day wait. In other words, i cannot have c&r longguns shipped to me directly any longer...is this correct? I called a few of the online dealers ive purchased from in the past and both stated they were unaware of such a change (i know its my responsibility to know) and routinely ship longguns to Ca c&r holders.
This seems like it's coming up a lot recently. I've got to wonder if DOJ is planning some underground regulation b/s here.

The person that you talked to at DOJ is wrong. C&R handguns have to go thru an 01, but not long guns. If anyone at DOJ insists otherwise, ask them to cite the PC. So, yes, you can have a C&R long gun shipped directly to you if you have an 03/COE. Just make sure you send in your $19 with the proper from.
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  #193  
Old 03-10-2015, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by six seven tango View Post
This seems like it's coming up a lot recently. I've got to wonder if DOJ is planning some underground regulation b/s here.

The person that you talked to at DOJ is wrong. C&R handguns have to go thru an 01, but not long guns. If anyone at DOJ insists otherwise, ask them to cite the PC. So, yes, you can have a C&R long gun shipped directly to you if you have an 03/COE. Just make sure you send in your $19 with the proper from.
Ok, thank you. The person I talked to cited the PC on the 4100 form and said that form 4100 could only be used to report out-of-state acquisitions. So i looked at form 961 which states its for reporting acquisitions in-state from non-licensees. So which form would be used if purchasing a long-gun from one of the major on-line c&r dealers like AIM or SOG?

Just trying to get my ducks in a row since things seemed to changed since my last c&r purchase.

Thanks again
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Old 03-10-2015, 1:08 PM
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Default I asked the same question here at Calguns

Quote:
Originally Posted by jl1252 View Post
Ok, thank you. The person I talked to cited the PC on the 4100 form and said that form 4100 could only be used to report out-of-state acquisitions. So i looked at form 961 which states its for reporting acquisitions in-state from non-licensees. So which form would be used if purchasing a long-gun from one of the major on-line c&r dealers like AIM or SOG?

Just trying to get my ducks in a row since things seemed to changed since my last c&r purchase.

Thanks again
... and it was very politely and nicely answered here

In your specific case, you will need to fill out the CADOJ BOF961

The Calguns community is very good at helping all members get things straight. There is some FUD spread about by members here. They do get called out on it pretty darned quick.
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Old 03-10-2015, 1:15 PM
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I too think that 961 is the most appropriate form, but this language copied from top of page 2 of form 961 is tripping me up:

Collector In-State Acquisition of Curio or Relic Long Gun Report Requirements

Federally licensed collectors (FFL type 03) in California who have a current COE may acquire curio or relic long guns from non-licensees without completing the transfer through a licensed firearms dealer only if he/she completes and submits this report to the California Department of Justice within thirty (30) days of taking possession of the long gun. Your failure to comply with this reporting requirement could result in criminal prosecution. (Pen. Code, §§ 27590 & 27966).

Establishments like AIM, SOG, CIA, are all licensees...correct? Or am I over thinking this?

Last edited by jl1252; 03-10-2015 at 1:20 PM..
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Old 03-10-2015, 1:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jl1252 View Post
Ok, thank you. The person I talked to cited the PC on the 4100 form and said that form 4100 could only be used to report out-of-state acquisitions. So i looked at form 961 which states its for reporting acquisitions in-state from non-licensees. So which form would be used if purchasing a long-gun from one of the major on-line c&r dealers like AIM or SOG?

Just trying to get my ducks in a row since things seemed to changed since my last c&r purchase.

Thanks again
Use the 961. I have registered over a dozen firearms this way with no problems. In the "Acquired From" box, I mark "other" and enter "Mailed from (insert state two letter abbreviation), FFL XX-XX-XXX-XX-XX-XXXXX"
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Old 03-10-2015, 1:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
Use the 961. I have registered over a dozen firearms this way with no problems. In the "Acquired From" box, I mark "other" and enter "Mailed from (insert state two letter abbreviation), FFL XX-XX-XXX-XX-XX-XXXXX"
^^This^^

The 961 seems to be a one size fits all/catch all form, and is poorly worded. Basically, if you acquired a C&R long gun without physically leaving the state, then the 961 is the proper form to use.

I do it a little different than Trickster. Instead of "mailed from", I'll put the actual company name IE: Aim Surplus, followed by their FFL number. Both ways seem to work.
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...Nor may we relegate the bearing of arms to a “second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees that we have held to be incorporated into the Due Process Clause.”
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Old 03-10-2015, 7:55 PM
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This is where I am having issues with using form 961 to report C&R purchases...

The form 961 references PC27966...

"Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following
requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the
sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in
Section 16730.
(b) The firearm is not a handgun.
(c) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11
of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
(d) The person receiving the firearm has a current certificate of
eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710.
(e) The person receiving the firearm is licensed as a collector
pursuant to Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the
regulations issued thereto.
(f) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person
to whom it is transferred shall forward by prepaid mail, or deliver
in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes
information concerning the individual taking possession of the
firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of
the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete
pursuant to this section shall be provided to them by the department."


So on its face, purchasing a C&R longgun from AIM and having it delivered to my doorstep, appears to meet all of the requirements of 27966 as long as I have a C&R and COE (which I do). Doesn't specify where the seller has to be located. No problem, good to go.

The problem I am still having is with the reference to "non-licensees" on page 2 of the form 961. It would seem to only apply to acquisitions from non-dealers and therefore not applicable to purchases from places like AIM.

The form seems to conflict with the penal code its based on...

jl1252
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Old 03-11-2015, 6:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jl1252 View Post
This is where I am having issues with using form 961 to report C&R purchases...

The form 961 references PC27966...


So on its face, purchasing a C&R longgun from AIM and having it delivered to my doorstep, appears to meet all of the requirements of 27966 as long as I have a C&R and COE (which I do). Doesn't specify where the seller has to be located. No problem, good to go.

The problem I am still having is with the reference to "non-licensees" on page 2 of the form 961. It would seem to only apply to acquisitions from non-dealers and therefore not applicable to purchases from places like AIM.

The form seems to conflict with the penal code its based on...

jl1252
When in doubt, follow the PC.
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"Our policy should not be informed by our collective outrage about one man's conduct." AG Kamala Harris referring to San Francisco's sanctuary policy and 7 time convicted felon and illegal alien Juan Francisco Lopez-Sanchez.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9CA
...Nor may we relegate the bearing of arms to a “second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees that we have held to be incorporated into the Due Process Clause.”
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  #200  
Old 03-11-2015, 8:10 AM
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Default If you are this paranoid

Quote:
Originally Posted by jl1252 View Post
This is where I am having issues with using form 961 to report C&R purchases...

The form 961 references PC27966...

"Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following
requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the
sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in
Section 16730.
(b) The firearm is not a handgun.
(c) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11
of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
(d) The person receiving the firearm has a current certificate of
eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710.
(e) The person receiving the firearm is licensed as a collector
pursuant to Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the
regulations issued thereto.
(f) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person
to whom it is transferred shall forward by prepaid mail, or deliver
in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes
information concerning the individual taking possession of the
firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of
the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete
pursuant to this section shall be provided to them by the department."


So on its face, purchasing a C&R longgun from AIM and having it delivered to my doorstep, appears to meet all of the requirements of 27966 as long as I have a C&R and COE (which I do). Doesn't specify where the seller has to be located. No problem, good to go.

The problem I am still having is with the reference to "non-licensees" on page 2 of the form 961. It would seem to only apply to acquisitions from non-dealers and therefore not applicable to purchases from places like AIM.

The form seems to conflict with the penal code its based on...

jl1252
If you are really this paranoid ... then do what our California Overlord Masters want for you ... Do not purchase a firearm ... or do ALL transactions through an 01-FFL and be done with it.

As others have said; BOF961 and you are pretty much good to go.

(provided you do have your C&R + COE)
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