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  #121  
Old 02-10-2017, 5:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Reverse engineering is not for the timid.
SSD pulled it off, though, resulting in the BD44 (PTR44 her in the U.S.). Except for material related problems with bolt and op rod plus too big of a receiver cutout for the hammer, they got it pretty spot on and it looks the part. Many owners made the PTR44 work reliably by substituting SSD parts with German WW2 parts.

The 3-stage extraction dynamics could have been simulated up front using AutoCad Inventor.
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  #122  
Old 02-10-2017, 5:11 AM
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SSD pulled it off, though, resulting in the BD44 (PTR44 her in the U.S.). Except for material related problems with bolt and op rod plus too big of a receiver cutout for the hammer, they got it pretty spot on and it looks the part. Many owners made the PTR44 work reliably by substituting SSD parts with German WW2 parts.
Everything I read says they did not quite pull it off, and many of the US made trigger group parts where breaking like crazy. I know a guy that has one and will basically not shoot it because of the problems. Maybe the full German ones were better. At $6500 when they were new, I passed. At least that's the price I remember. PTR had to make (or contract out) a bunch of stuff to get 922r.

I think HMG is on a higher level, at least from what I have seen and heard.
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  #123  
Old 02-10-2017, 5:13 AM
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Originally Posted by GunKraut View Post
SSD pulled it off, though, resulting in the BD44 (PTR44 her in the U.S.). Except for material related problems with bolt and op rod plus too big of a receiver cutout for the hammer, they got it pretty spot on and it looks the part. Many owners made the PTR44 work reliably by substituting SSD parts with German WW2 parts.

The 3-stage extraction dynamics could have been simulated up front using AutoCad Inventor.

Half of their guns did not work out of the box. Everyone involved in that deal lost their asses.

I have one of the ones that did work and its a great copy
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  #124  
Old 02-10-2017, 5:23 AM
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The 3-stage extraction dynamics could have been simulated up front using AutoCad Inventor.
I do Solidworks for a living and use Inventor from time to time, and FEA is a real pain to set up correctly. Garbage in, garbage out. Unless you have a phd in physics it never works well enough to predict. If you have the brain trust up front and all the nasa engineers, then maybe. But FEA will not give most small companies anything but a headache.
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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #125  
Old 02-10-2017, 5:49 AM
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Also:

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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #126  
Old 02-10-2017, 8:34 AM
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Half of their guns did not work out of the box. Everyone involved in that deal lost their asses.

I have one of the ones that did work and its a great copy
Quite a few members here own a PTR44, myself included. I'm still running the original bolt and op-rod. The PTR44 is the partially U.S. made version of the semi-auto German BD44. In Canada you can buy the BD44 in the same configuration as sold in Germany. As far as I know, there are less reports of BD44 breakdowns than there are about PTR44 breakdowns. Maybe there are less BD44 in Canada in general, although at half the price of the U.S. versions they should have sold like hot cakes.

The saga of the PTR44 starts with our awkward ban on importing "assault rifles". In order to import an MP44 clone, you have to bring it into the country in "sporting configuration". Hence the PTR44 arrived in pieces, with parts missing and -judging by the welding beads inside the mouth of the magazine well- with their magazine wells welded shut. Missing were those parts that needed to be replaced with domestic parts to satisfy yet another law/regulation, section 922r US Code, Title 18. This is a regulation which pertains to building or modifying semi-automatic rifles or shotguns from imported parts. A certain number of parts used in the assembly of the PTR44 needed to be manufactured domestically, such as trigger group components, grips, butt stock, cocking handle, etc.

The PTR44 receiver is dimensionally an almost exact clone of the MP44, hence it would have been easy to turn a PTR44 into a full-auto MP44 by installing F/A parts and adding a slot in the rear receiver for the F/A sear. To prevent installation of MP44 bolt and op-rod, the PTR44 bolt and op-rod were reduced in width and the rear section of the receiver was fitted with a narrow blocking piece to prevent the wider MP44 parts from being installed.

The importer was left with the sad task of making this German-American bastard run. From what I've read, the importer was overwhelmed and half of the bastards they slapped together initially didn't work at all. Eventually, almost all of them were put into working condition and sold off.

Not long after the PTR44 hit the market, rifles were returned because of malfunction. The aftermarket magazines were responsible for most FTF and many shooters remedied the problem by using original WW2 magazines. After prolonged usage, other failures occurred, such as broken op-rod ears. As more users reported op-rod problems, it became evident that many of the op-rods problems were tied to shooting blanks or reloads made from improperly sized casings. The general fix was to install WW2 German bolts and op-rods after removing the restriction in the back of the receiver.

U.S. made trigger parts began to develop fatigue cracks and broke off. Those whose op-rods did not break encountered another problem, especially with blanks and casings made from other shells, such as 8x57 or 30-06. If not properly sized, they would require excessive force for closing the bolt. Due to the MP44 bolt dynamics, the recoil spring pushing the op-rod forward not only creates a forward force for feeding a round into the chamber, due to the tilting bolt design and the angled contact surfaces between bolt and op-rod, the rear end of the bolt is being pushed down at the same time. The more force on the op-rod, the more the bolt was forced down, especially when a round jammed.

The bottom of the receiver has a cutout for the hammer. In this area, very little material supports the bottom of the bolt. The situation was even worse for the PTR44 as the slot was for unknown reasons wider than the MP44 slot while the bottom of the PTR44 bolt was narrower than the MP44. Over time, jams and forced closures of the bolt pried the weakened receiver apart, causing the PTR bolt to break through the hammer slot and hang up. Owners who had converted to MP44 bolts early on did not have this problem as the bolt was wider and better supported in the critical area of the receiver.

This is a quick summary of the PTR44 problems I remember. I'm glad HMG got their rifle to run but only time will tell if they've managed to iron out all flaws.
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  #127  
Old 02-10-2017, 5:44 PM
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Wow, thanks, that is the most comprehensive history I have read!
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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #128  
Old 02-10-2017, 10:31 PM
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Well put, GunKraut - !



The HMG replica is a God awful looking replica, just terrible, even with a full squint it doesn't cut the mustard - but, it also appears that when the bugs are worked out, it may actually shoot like a modern sporting-rifle, that you can blast rounds through like "Frito the Bandito."

Yeah, I agree, I got the HMG receiver here on my desk and look at it from time to time and it really just does not have the original's feel. The problem is the nearly 1/2" bulk up in the front trunion area to accommodate a bigger trunion. It's kind of like comparing a regular AK receiver to a molot style RPK receiver, the bulge just makes it look completely different.

Ho hum though, like you say if it shoots like an AK maybe worth it. To be honest the original German trunions look to me to be too thin to be really capable of sustaining heavy automatic fire and I know they cracked a lot, right? Still, they looked so elegant..........
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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #129  
Old 02-11-2017, 8:42 PM
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The original MP44's were never intended to be shot in full auto in a sustained manner.
In fact the manual forbade FA unless it was an "emergency" situation - *Handrich's translation, not mine.
*There was also an endemic shortage of 7,9x33mm on the front lines - which could also have been the reason for the decree forbidding FA.

DiscoGodfather: I removed my comment because I re-read it and realized it was insulting to anyone who had bought one of the HMG rifles, so I apologize you read that before I could remove it - I can be a putz with my comments, a wiseass European sense of irony which really doesn't work well in the US, and has damned near gotten me killed in mid-America.

I am sure the rifle will be a blast to shoot and own!
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  #130  
Old 02-11-2017, 9:31 PM
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The original MP44's were never intended to be shot in full auto in a sustained manner.
In fact the manual forbade FA unless it was an "emergency" situation - *Handrich's translation, not mine.
*There was also an endemic shortage of 7,9x33mm on the front lines - which could also have been the reason for the decree forbidding FA.

DiscoGodfather: I removed my comment because I re-read it and realized it was insulting to anyone who had bought one of the HMG rifles, so I apologize you read that before I could remove it - I can be a putz with my comments, a wiseass European sense of irony which really doesn't work well in the US, and has damned near gotten me killed in mid-America.

I am sure the rifle will be a blast to shoot and own!
Yeah I typed that out while you were deleting it, sorry. I thought the comment was right on, it's a bit of a monster in terms of the feel and look of the rifle. I work in industrial design and sometimes the proportions of the design are very important to it's identity, and any messing around with it can severely impact how it's perceived. The HMG receiver does look "fat" and "ugly" in that sense.
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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #131  
Old 02-17-2017, 3:28 AM
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Another update from Inrange and HMG:

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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #132  
Old 02-24-2017, 8:17 AM
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Another talk with HMG:

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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
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  #133  
Old 04-07-2017, 1:35 PM
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Latest, looks like bolts are in house.

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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
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  #134  
Old 06-09-2017, 4:29 PM
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Any updates
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  #135  
Old 06-09-2017, 5:34 PM
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They have made progress and are closer to shipping. Best way to look at what they have done is on the HMG facebook page.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
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  #136  
Old 08-19-2017, 7:49 AM
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Yet another video, this time with hard dates.

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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #137  
Old 09-13-2017, 6:34 AM
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Another update, just got off the phone with Travis @ HMG. He relayed some news:

1) California customers who purchased and Dros'd receivers in 2016 will not be charged for a a compliance kit, which is a grip wrap and a 10 round magazine

2) CA 10 round magazines will NOT be blocked magazines, but rather internally different (injection molded) for 10 rounds, so it is a different mag than the standard mag (same 30 round length though, same visually)

3) Time-frame is within 2017, probably November. The thing holding things up is the injection molds for the magazines, their supplier/manufacturer had to make some tweaks and it's delayed the process

4) They are looking into direct shipment as an option for a completed rifle since the rifle was dros'd in 2016 and they are doing "gunsmithing" and therefore do not need to go through an FFL for a return shipment. Not sure if this is right, have to look it up, but it sounds great if it is possible legally.

5) Barrels are chrome-moly and black nitrided.

6) There might be some discount coupons coming for extra add on items like caliber conversion kits for customers who purchased in 2015 and the first half of 2016, more details to come.


Follow them on their facebook page, they have good updates every few weeks.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #138  
Old 09-13-2017, 6:40 AM
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It actually is legal for them to directly send us our rifles as long as we went through the process of sending the receivers (with AI letter) and having them dros'd, no need to have it sent to a receiving FFL. At least according to my research.

So, if you got a receiver in and Dros'd it already, they can ship directly to your door when the rifle is completed. They are also the OEM so this has been ironed out many times with other manufacturers including Serbu and Barrett, all good to go.

Nice not to have to take the extra trip to the FFL and possibly get charged something extra.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #139  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:22 PM
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I'll lay some cash out for one once the rifles are being shipped. I want one in 7.92x33 just to keep it og....Or maybe something else idk. I feel like it's like trying to own a Garand in 556.
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  #140  
Old 09-13-2017, 10:39 PM
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I'll lay some cash out for one once the rifles are being shipped. I want one in 7.92x33 just to keep it og....Or maybe something else idk. I feel like it's like trying to own a Garand in 556.
I feel the same way, I ordered mine in 8mm Kurz. I could see 7.62 x 39mm just for cheap thrills though, not really digging the scarcity of 8mm Kurz.

Going to be interesting to see if it's at all accurate. Basically just a fun gun with some historical context, gave up on owning a real one years ago. Almost ponied up the money for the PTR German made copy, but that was silly expensive too.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
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  #141  
Old 09-14-2017, 7:17 PM
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Way out of my price range. Too bad because I really liked it
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