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  #1  
Old 02-13-2017, 7:52 AM
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Default Full Auto Garand

Fun article on gunsamerica

MilSurp: A Full-Auto Garand? The Secret World War II-Era T20 Rifle.

Editor’s Note: This piece is an abridged excerpt from the book The M1 Garand Rifle by Bruce N. Canfield. If you would like to explore this subject in greater detail, you can obtain a copy of the 872-page book from Mowbray Publishing, 54 East School St., Woonsocket, RI 02895.

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Old 02-13-2017, 8:38 AM
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I wonder why they looked to bulk up the M1 to full auto instead of the seemingly obvious alternative. They already had a rifle capable of full auto fire from a BAR magazine.....the BAR. Seems like it would make more sense to slim down the BAR to be more of a standard infantry rifle capable of full auto when needed, than scale up the M1.
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Old 02-13-2017, 8:51 AM
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Kinda looks like an early concept testing for an M14
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Old 02-13-2017, 9:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emcon5 View Post
I wonder why they looked to bulk up the M1 to full auto instead of the seemingly obvious alternative. They already had a rifle capable of full auto fire from a BAR magazine.....the BAR. Seems like it would make more sense to slim down the BAR to be more of a standard infantry rifle capable of full auto when needed, than scale up the M1.
Because 'Merica
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Old 02-13-2017, 9:43 AM
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As I was reading the article I saw the pic of the original muzzle break. I thought that would only increase recoil - directing energy back at the shooter.


Further down in the article it does state "At the Aberdeen T20 trial, excessive flash, recoil, muzzle blast and climb were reported."
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Old 02-13-2017, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emcon5 View Post
I wonder why they looked to bulk up the M1 to full auto instead of the seemingly obvious alternative. They already had a rifle capable of full auto fire from a BAR magazine.....the BAR. Seems like it would make more sense to slim down the BAR to be more of a standard infantry rifle capable of full auto when needed, than scale up the M1.
BAR squad level and didn't scale down scaled up instead. That scaled up model is the M60.
I think the idea of a full auto infantry weapon went away in the '80's???
It would be interesting to see a full auto M1 The BAR must kicked ***.
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Old 02-13-2017, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by peppermintman View Post
BAR squad level and didn't scale down scaled up instead. That scaled up model is the M60.
I think the idea of a full auto infantry weapon went away in the '80's???
It would be interesting to see a full auto M1 The BAR must kicked ***.
I agree it didn't, but didn't ≠ couldn't.

My point was that if the goal was a infantry rifle capable of full auto fire that could use BAR magazines, I expect it would be less difficult to scale down a BAR to a infantry rifle than to scale up a M1. The biggest problems would be the weight (the lightest variant was still ~13 lbs, compared to ~9 for the M1) and that the M1918 fired from an open bolt.
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Old 02-13-2017, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emcon5 View Post
I wonder why they looked to bulk up the M1 to full auto instead of the seemingly obvious alternative. They already had a rifle capable of full auto fire from a BAR magazine.....the BAR. Seems like it would make more sense to slim down the BAR to be more of a standard infantry rifle capable of full auto when needed, than scale up the M1.
I have a 1918 BAR (Ohio Ordnance semi) and there isn't a whole lot of slimming down that can be done. Toss the carry handle and bipod, which I think many tended to do, but other than that - not much else. And by the 1940's the 20 to 25 round box fed mag was at a disadvantage compared to other belt feds. I can see morphing the Garand into a light full auto IF something more capable than the 1918 BAR was to be soon developed.
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Old 02-13-2017, 3:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdfact View Post
As I was reading the article I saw the pic of the original muzzle break. I thought that would only increase recoil - directing energy back at the shooter.


Further down in the article it does state "At the Aberdeen T20 trial, excessive flash, recoil, muzzle blast and climb were reported."
Negative ghost rider. It's directing gas back at the shooter.
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Old 02-13-2017, 7:54 PM
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Ordnance was ignoring basic physics with their 40s and 50s efforts of a light weight fully automatic rifle firing a standard .30 cartridge.

If they had used the .276 Pedersen they may have had better luck.

T-25 was more effective in controlling fully automatic fire but it was too complex to succeed.

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  #11  
Old 02-13-2017, 8:28 PM
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It was an interesting design concept that probably did ultimately lead to the M14. Some of the trials rifles have interesting designs that become improved upon and lead to the next new design of a battle rifle. For instance the Enfield MkV trials rifle had an adjustable rear ladder sight that was improved upon and used on the No4 rifle.
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Old 02-13-2017, 8:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emcon5 View Post
My point was that if the goal was a infantry rifle capable of full auto fire that could use BAR magazines, I expect it would be less difficult to scale down a BAR to a infantry rifle than to scale up a M1. The biggest problems would be the weight (the lightest variant was still ~13 lbs, compared to ~9 for the M1) and that the M1918 fired from an open bolt.
Ohio Ordnance Works did attempt to do this, after a fashion, with their HCAR.

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Old 02-15-2017, 12:21 PM
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I honestly can't imagine shooting a full auto .30-06 rifle in anything LESS than a 20 lb BAR (which they found out with the select fire M14). Talk about spray and pray....
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Old 02-17-2017, 7:49 AM
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I have fired a registered full auto BAR several times that belongs to my Friend. They are really a pleasure to shoot. And alot of fun. With the 18 pounds or so, they are really not hard on your shoulder at all. Correct also, there is really no muzzle rise. He has a Clot Thompson also. They are heavy to, and with the Cutts compensator. No muzzle rise on that either. You really could write your name in a target if practiced enough with the Tommy Gun.

My Dad however hated that BAR. He was in the Marine Corp in the early 50s and carried it more than he fired it. I guess he did not hate the Rifle itself so much. Who could. He just hated carrying it around. He much more proffered carrying around a M1 Carbine.

Last edited by AR22; 02-17-2017 at 7:54 AM..
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  #15  
Old 02-18-2017, 5:10 AM
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I have bump fired my m14 clone just for fun, and i will literally have to step back like 3 times through 20 rounds. granted, i aint got much meat on me. Never tried it with my garand, cant find cheap enough ammo to waste like that!
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