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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 07-16-2017, 5:40 PM
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Went there for dinner last night before the Quakes game. They have a separate; in the middle of the restaurant, bar section with tables around the outside of the bar area. We ate at the tables.

It didn't look like a lot of people where eating food and I have no idea what their food to alcohol ratio is.

In training they said that as long as I didn't sit in the bar section I could carry at a place like this.

Even with the separate seating area it seemed more like a bar that serves food than a restaurant with a bar.

What would you do? Carry or leave in the car?

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Old 07-16-2017, 5:47 PM
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I wouldn't worry about it if sitting at the tables and eating food during earlier hours.
I probably wouldn't carry there after 8 or 9 (assuming they remain open until midnight or after)

I'm sure Black Angus makes most of its money from alcohol after 9pm... but there is no state law that covers this. You can't consume (or be under the influence), but it is up to the individual IA as to whether or not it is a problem as far as revoking your permit.

Personally, I'd rather be alive with a revoked permit after an incident than dead with a perfectly good gun in my car and a renewed per.... oh, that's right... I wouldn't be renewing
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 07-16-2017, 6:00 PM
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I was thinking the same thing. I was just hoping that someone else was thinking the same thing I was.

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Old 07-16-2017, 6:06 PM
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Ya.

IMHO, it's a legitimate restaurant. Hooters would *maybe* be more questionable, but again, it's not like everyone with you is pounding pitchers and you happen to be the designated driver.
I consider them in the same area as pizza places... some are practically sports bars, but food is on the menu and regularly served.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 07-16-2017, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
but there is no state law that covers this. You can't consume (or be under the influence), but it is up to the individual IA as to whether or not it is a problem as far as revoking your permit.
I agree, BUT, page 5 of BOF 4012 (CCW application) states:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOF 4012, page 5
While exercising the privileges granted to the licensee under the terms of this license, the licensee shall not, when carrying a concealed weapon:
• Consume any alcoholic beverage.
• Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption.
Thats not an IA requirement, that's a DOJ requirement. The IA may also have an additional restriction as well (mine does).
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Old 07-17-2017, 5:57 AM
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The key item is there a sign that says must be 21 then it's a bar.

Some places have signs that say after 6:00 PM must be 21.

No sign you are good to go, best rule of thumb I've found.
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Old 07-17-2017, 5:59 AM
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Tilted Kilt is has a type 47 license, they are an eating establishment that serves alcohol. Health inspection letter grade on the window, and a group of people (of any age) can show up get seated, handed a menu, order food, pay a check and leave. Regular health inspections, range hood, grease traps, make up air, food prep area.... that there is a restaurant.

Your activities there dictate whether or not it's okay to carry.
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  #8  
Old 07-17-2017, 6:35 AM
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Children of all ages are allowed inside the Tilted Kilt pubs, therefore it is not a "bar."
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Old 07-17-2017, 7:44 AM
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You go there for the food?
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Old 07-17-2017, 8:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
You go there for the food?
I went for the food. My brother went for the view. Our wives went because we were there.

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  #11  
Old 07-17-2017, 9:06 AM
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Anybody there play bagpipes?
Do they have a bagpipe team?

Need bagpipe player for the Super Secret Zombie Shoot


Oh dear, am I profiling?
Vick
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  #12  
Old 07-17-2017, 9:14 AM
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Anybody there play bagpipes?
Do they have a bagpipe team?

Need bagpipe player for the Super Secret Zombie Shoot


Oh dear, am I profiling?
Vick
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  #13  
Old 07-17-2017, 10:00 AM
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"Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption.

This is the key. What is the primary purpose of the establishment you are going into? Any restaurant that serves alcohol would be exempt as their primary purpose is to serve food. Now if you go into a local pub that sells appetizers, you may have an issue. Either way, I would not drink in either one if you are carrying.
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Old 07-17-2017, 2:31 PM
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I can play the Pipes, but no way I get a CCW in Santa Clara.
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Old 07-17-2017, 2:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hairball View Post
"Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption.

This is the key. What is the primary purpose of the establishment you are going into? Any restaurant that serves alcohol would be exempt as their primary purpose is to serve food. Now if you go into a local pub that sells appetizers, you may have an issue. Either way, I would not drink in either one if you are carrying.
^^
Yep, OP imagine someone calling in to 911 regarding a situation.

Would they call it in as "Something is happening at the bar"

Or would it be "Something is going on at the restaurant"

The Tilted Kilt is a Bar, CNN it all you want, however it is what it is.
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Old 07-17-2017, 3:47 PM
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A group of friends and I went to BJ's Restaurant and Brewhouse recently. While waiting for a table, all of us went and sat at the bar. My friends all ordered cocktails & beer and I had a glass of water.

My IA (Orange Co.) doesn't say I can't go into a bar (even if it is primarily a bar). They simply say not to consume any alcohol.

It felt odd not drinking beer with my friends, but they all appreciated the fact that I was the DS ("Designated Shooter").
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Old 07-17-2017, 4:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morrcarr67 View Post
I went for the food. My brother went for the view. Our wives went because we were there.

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They serve food there?
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Old 07-17-2017, 4:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mag+1 View Post
A group of friends and I went to BJ's Restaurant and Brewhouse recently. While waiting for a table, all of us went and sat at the bar. My friends all ordered cocktails & beer and I had a glass of water.

My IA (Orange Co.) doesn't say I can't go into a bar (even if it is primarily a bar). They simply say not to consume any alcohol.

It felt odd not drinking beer with my friends, but they all appreciated the fact that I was the DS ("Designated Shooter").
Read Post #5 above.

It's not just your IA. Even though OC has gone electronic with the application, the CA DOJ still prohibits you from going into a place that primarily serves alcohol. The IA may or may not add additional restrictions.

Not that anything you did was wrong though.
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Old 07-18-2017, 1:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calico1404 View Post
^^
Yep, OP imagine someone calling in to 911 regarding a situation.

Would they call it in as "Something is happening at the bar"

Or would it be "Something is going on at the restaurant"

The Tilted Kilt is a Bar, CNN it all you want, however it is what it is.
Nope, Type 47 ABC license is a restaurant that serves alcohol.
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Old 07-18-2017, 1:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calico1404 View Post
^^
Yep, OP imagine someone calling in to 911 regarding a situation.

Would they call it in as "Something is happening at the bar"

Or would it be "Something is going on at the restaurant"

The Tilted Kilt is a Bar, CNN it all you want, however it is what it is.
Then by this rationale Chilis and Applebees are bars too....I don't think so. If the establishment requires you to be 21 to enter...it is a bar. If you can bring kids it's a restaurant.
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Old 07-18-2017, 2:12 PM
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Then by this rationale Chilis and Applebees are bars too....I don't think so. If the establishment requires you to be 21 to enter...it is a bar. If you can bring kids it's a restaurant.
Some Acapulcos turn into night clubs after dark, they use the same ABC designation. Chilis and Applebees have a Designated "Bar Area"

Go to Chilies at 8pm and have your kids sit at the bar top, please report back your findings.

Tilted Kilt Pub and Eatery is a Celtic-themed sports bar and franchise restaurant chain in the United States and Canada that employs scantily-clad female servers in short kilts.

^^ what would you call their primary business? The delicious food or the drinks and atmosphere?

No wonder California gets so many tests cases.
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Old 07-18-2017, 2:14 PM
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You're fine. Even sitting at the bar or bar area is fine so long as you do not consume alcohol.

ABC Type 47 - On-Sale General for Bona Fide Public Eating Place

https://www.abc.ca.gov/permits/licensetypes.html


Correct on the "No Persons under 21 Allowed" sign rule of thumb as that is a statutory requirement in CA for bars. See CCR Title 4 Section 1:

https://www.abc.ca.gov/FORMS/ABC598.pdf

Section 107. Retailers Required to Post Warning Notice
The licensee of each premises licensed with an on-sale license for public premises shall maintain a clearly legible sign, not less than 7" x 11" in size reading, "No Person Under 21 Allowed" at or near each public entrance thereto in such a manner that such sign shall be visible from the exterior of each public entrance. The lettering of such sign shall be no less than one inch in height. A sign of like size and content shall be maintained at a prominent place in the interior of the premises.
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Old 07-18-2017, 2:51 PM
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I am saying it is highly not recommended, not that it is illegal.

If you choose to utilize your privilege in such a way then so be it. However if it comes down to a test case of whether or not the establishment was primarily for serving alcohol for consumption then good luck to all of you that are so inclined. ;o)

You may want to look up the closest test case to date, where as the CCW holder was an attorney, also a judge protem, the initial conclusion was that he was IN VIOLATION (he was not drinking at all), however the DOJ declined to press charges.

Do you think you will be so lucky? Maybe, very possibly maybe.
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Old 07-18-2017, 3:34 PM
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Day time up until 8-9pm is where I'd draw the line. Been there a couple times where they essentially turned the bar area into a club. I'd lock it up to be safe at that point.
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Old 07-18-2017, 3:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blvcksails View Post
Day time up until 8-9pm is where I'd draw the line. Been there a couple times where they essentially turned the bar area into a club. I'd lock it up to be safe at that point.
^^ Voted most likely to succeed.
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Old 07-18-2017, 5:09 PM
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Slight high jack but what are the collective thoughts on clubs like the coach house where it's primarily a concert venue that serves drinks (and food)?

Revert to the 21 rule?
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Old 07-18-2017, 5:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
You go there for the food?
Sounds kind of implausible to me too. Maybe if OP posted some pictures of the establishment and staff we could make a better informed decision.
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Old 07-18-2017, 5:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EASonBASS View Post
Slight high jack but what are the collective thoughts on clubs like the coach house where it's primarily a concert venue that serves drinks (and food)?

Revert to the 21 rule?
I'm no attorney, but I think you answered your own question. If what you say is true, then it is primarily a concert hall that serves drinks and food).

I would also say that's no different than going to the Improv comedy club.

The "primary purpose" (DOJ's words, not mine) is from concerts and comedy, respectively.
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Old 07-18-2017, 5:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mag+1 View Post
A group of friends and I went to BJ's Restaurant and Brewhouse recently. While waiting for a table, all of us went and sat at the bar. My friends all ordered cocktails & beer and I had a glass of water.

My IA (Orange Co.) doesn't say I can't go into a bar (even if it is primarily a bar). They simply say not to consume any alcohol.

It felt odd not drinking beer with my friends, but they all appreciated the fact that I was the DS ("Designated Shooter").
Amongst my friends...
Whoever is the DD (designated driver) is also the DS.
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Old 07-18-2017, 7:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calico1404 View Post
I am saying it is highly not recommended, not that it is illegal.

If you choose to utilize your privilege in such a way then so be it. However if it comes down to a test case of whether or not the establishment was primarily for serving alcohol for consumption then good luck to all of you that are so inclined. ;o)

You may want to look up the closest test case to date, where as the CCW holder was an attorney, also a judge protem, the initial conclusion was that he was IN VIOLATION (he was not drinking at all), however the DOJ declined to press charges.

Do you think you will be so lucky? Maybe, very possibly maybe.
Since you referred it, do you have the case name? As to your other point about Acapulco's and designated 'bar areas' in my experience, Acapulco and Black Angus, would card people in that area that turned into a 'nightclub'. I think you're missing the point, the rule says, primary purpose is serving alcohol. Tilted Kilt, Chilis Acapulco are restaurants and I think a reasonable person knows that. I'm comfortable in my legality in those establishments.
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Old 07-18-2017, 8:53 PM
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Originally Posted by KyleGunGuns View Post
Then by this rationale Chilis and Applebees are bars too....I don't think so. If the establishment requires you to be 21 to enter...it is a bar. If you can bring kids it's a restaurant.
Yup.
Not a problem in California.
They ARE a problem in New Mexico.
The only allow carry in establishments that serve wine and low-point beer.

Chili's and Applebee's both sell hard liquor.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #32  
Old 07-19-2017, 8:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WB6HRO View Post
The key item is there a sign that says must be 21 then it's a bar.

Some places have signs that say after 6:00 PM must be 21.

No sign you are good to go, best rule of thumb I've found.
This is what I go by. It stays in the car otherwise.
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