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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #41  
Old 03-13-2017, 7:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen One View Post
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...0#post19385990

The argument is whether the magazine retention functionality constitutes part of the semiauto action. (*Revised opinion) I prefer not to state my opinion. It depends on if the ability to load a magazine into the weapon, is therefore part of the "action" of the semiauto. They claim the DOJ agrees with them on this. But there may be edge cases I do not consider, and will not speculate on.

It is possible to manually chamber a round and discharge. However, that would then be single-shot/bolt-action. Does disabling the ability to positively retain a magazine make it no longer "a semiautomatic, centerfire rifle" regulated under SB880? I would think so. However I am concerned about the text of the law* (*correction, the revoked 12/31/16 DOJ interpretation http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...3#post19419733 ) that says lacking a release is considered "detachable magazine". This is murkier. This retains it, but disables it positively.

But when the rule of law has devolved into "because I said so", there is little meaning to debate. I agree with you it remains to be proven legally. And I would not wish to be that individual. The goal of intimidation and disenfranchisement is accomplished.
Per the (now withdrawn) regulations that were released, an AR with the magazine catch removed (likewise disabled) does NOT constitute a "fixed magazine"

Keep in mind that the new law covers anything that "does not have a fixed magazine"... it doesn't matter if it's detachable, detachable with a tool, or "won't stay in"... if it is not a fixed magazine, it is not legal to be featured and have the action assembled.

The PT AR LOK was legal in 2016. It is absolutely NOT legal in 2017, and the manufacturer is being deceitful by claiming that it is "DOJ Approved" when the only "approval" that DOJ has given is that it qualifies as a firearms safety device.

The thing is a perfect device to keep the gun safe from the kids loading it and shooting someone. Unfortunately, it is not legal to remove the block and install a magazine... at least not unless it is registered as an AW some time this year.
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  #42  
Old 03-13-2017, 7:38 PM
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Even being a semiautomatic... the first example is rimfire, which is exempt unless it is a pistol.
The 2nd example is a fixed magazine.
The 3rd example, the action is disassembled.

All legal... aside from the fact that they are also legal because they are featureless.

The M1A with a flash hider IS an AW.
The M1 Garand is featureless... but even if it were not, it is a fixed magazine. Enbloc clips are not magazines.
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  #43  
Old 03-13-2017, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
That does NOT comply as a fixed magazine in 2017 and beyond.
After reading your comments and others, I can see your point. When I first saw their website and the claim that it was 2017 compliant, I kind of figured I was missing something. I'm glad I posted it and had some other folks take a look at it too.
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  #44  
Old 03-21-2017, 10:54 PM
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Although there may be many updates to the particular products and their availability, I do not see that the suggested products mentioned here in the last month or so meet the intent of this list. Although very interested in the topic in general, I'm not active enough here to upgrade and rigorously maintain the list.
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  #45  
Old 03-22-2017, 7:24 AM
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I can see cease fires at ranges taking a lot longer when people are trying
to untruck some of these devices. Also,when a stoppage occurs while
shooting,the prospect of a "ND" occurring while someone is trying to
clear their weapon is a very real and scary possibility.
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  #46  
Old 04-12-2017, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
All legal... aside from the fact that they are also legal because they are featureless.

The M1 Garand is featureless... but even if it were not, it is a fixed magazine. Enbloc clips are not magazines.
Just wanted to say I finally found the picture. Remove the follower arm/spring/follower elements on this historical, CMP-issued service rifle -- for routine disassembly, maintenance, and cleaning -- and per your above definition you would be guilty for creating an assault weapon, or featured rifle "without a magazine".

This is a M1-D Garand, but any one in this configuration would count just the same. There are literally millions of these rifles in circulation. (Note: the CMP is a federally-founded, US government chartered program, established with the express purpose of training civilians in the marksmanship of arms that are in common use in case of draft. California [and Maryland explicitly] have essentially neutered their own Federal militia training program for the modern generation of arms, and now the laws or so backwards they are affecting the Greatest Generation too.)

As a note, I am aware the trigger assembly comes out as a package. But my point is about concept. The laws are overbroad and contradictory.



Here's another one. Different configuration.


Last edited by Citizen One; 04-12-2017 at 1:29 AM..
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  #47  
Old 04-12-2017, 7:22 PM
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It is not illegal "without a magazine"
It is illegal "without a fixed magazine"

Removing the part does not result in a change to the design of the gun, which is that it has a fixed magazine.

It does not have a single, non-fixed magazine that can be removed and replaced to reload the gun.

Without a magazine installed, you simply have a single shot self-ejecting rifle. It would be no different from an AR with an ARMaglock and the magazine removed with the upper closed. It ceases to be a semiautomatic rifle without the magazine in place.
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  #48  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:43 AM
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swamp2, are you still keeping your list updated?

I don't see the FC Hook in the list:

http://torqueprecision.com/p/aboutfchook
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  #49  
Old 07-23-2017, 6:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
swamp2, are you still keeping your list updated?
Answered above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I'm not active enough here to upgrade and rigorously maintain the list.
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  #50  
Old 08-05-2017, 5:45 AM
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  #51  
Old 08-06-2017, 2:23 PM
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http://ddsranch.com/ar-15-magazine-lock/

Thoughts on this?
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  #52  
Old 08-06-2017, 2:35 PM
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Not a fixed mag device but makes your ar15 into a single shot rifle.

https://tier5solutions.com
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  #53  
Old 08-06-2017, 2:36 PM
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The dds ranch looks like it may be another version of the FC Hook maybe?


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  #54  
Old 08-06-2017, 2:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NATEWA View Post
Not a fixed mag device but makes your ar15 into a single shot rifle.

https://tier5solutions.com
Looks like it's designed to lock the bolt open after each shot, then you just release the bolt and fire again. Pretty cool, I wonder if you could combine it with a BAD lever
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  #55  
Old 08-06-2017, 2:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by one918 View Post
The dds ranch looks like it may be another version of the FC Hook maybe?


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I'm not sure how it works. Anyone? Will google it.

Just read reviews and they have to epoxy or jb weld it.

Last edited by NATEWA; 08-06-2017 at 2:51 PM..
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  #56  
Old 08-06-2017, 2:58 PM
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Originally Posted by NATEWA View Post
Curious how that is installed.
You can't spin the latch into place far enough to lock it in... there has to be a bolt threaded in.

Hard to tell without more images, but I suspect the "button" is internally threaded like a standard release, and the latch is held in place while a bolt is threaded into the button.

In that case, not legal, since the device can be removed without opening the upper (same as the owner of ARMaglock demonstrating how to clear a malfunction)

Interesting that the SKU for that is ARMAGLOCK

They list that as a New York compliance item... if they've been using that name longer than ARMaglock's owner, he might find himself on the wrong side of one of the lawsuits he seems to enjoy.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
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  #57  
Old 08-06-2017, 3:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by one918 View Post
The dds ranch looks like it may be another version of the FC Hook maybe?
No.
It's a screw that gets tightened into place in the magazine catch bar.
To remove the magazine, you would have to loosen the screw enough for the magazine catch bar to let the magazine drop.

That method of fixing a magazine in the lower receiver would not meet the new CA definition of a fixed magazine because it does not require "disassembly of the action" in order for the magazine to be removed.
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  #58  
Old 08-06-2017, 3:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Curious how that is installed.
You can't spin the latch into place far enough to lock it in... there has to be a bolt threaded in.

Hard to tell without more images, but I suspect the "button" is internally threaded like a standard release, and the latch is held in place while a bolt is threaded into the button.
The button is not threaded.
A cap screw slides through the button and threads into the magazine catch bar.
The magazine catch bar is threaded.
To install, you insert a magazine, hold the magazine catch bar in place and then insert the button and screw and tighten the screw.
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  #59  
Old 08-06-2017, 3:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
The button is not threaded.
A cap screw slides through the button and threads into the magazine catch bar.
The magazine catch bar is threaded.
To install, you insert a magazine, hold the magazine catch bar in place and then insert the button and screw and tighten the screw.
So legal only if a cap is hammered into the button over the screw like the Patriot Button.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
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  #60  
Old 08-06-2017, 3:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Looks like it's designed to lock the bolt open after each shot, then you just release the bolt and fire again. Pretty cool, I wonder if you could combine it with a BAD lever
Could this be an option for AR pistols? Is a non-semi-auto AR pistol with detachable magazine CA-compliant?
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  #61  
Old 08-06-2017, 3:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
So legal only if a cap is hammered into the button over the screw like the Patriot Button.
The cap blocking disassembly would make it CA legal.
Apparently NY does not have such requirement.
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  #62  
Old 08-06-2017, 3:56 PM
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Originally Posted by swell1957 View Post
Could this be an option for AR pistols? Is a non-semi-auto AR pistol with detachable magazine CA-compliant?
Not really.
The wording of the law appears to exempt pistols and shotguns.
I don't want to be the test case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
The cap blocking disassembly would make it CA legal.
Apparently NY does not have such requirement.
Interesting... they just don't consider a bullet tip to be a "tool" (bullet button has never been legal there)
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #63  
Old 08-06-2017, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Not really.
The wording of the law appears to exempt pistols and shotguns.
I don't want to be the test case.
PC12276 defines semi-auto pistols with "evil-features" as AWs, as we know. The auto-loading single-shot isn't semi-auto, right?

I agree though. I wouldn't want to be a test-case. It would be difficult to tell the difference between the two, probably even while shooting.
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  #64  
Old 08-06-2017, 4:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swell1957 View Post
PC12276 defines semi-auto pistols with "evil-features" as AWs, as we know. The auto-loading single-shot isn't semi-auto, right?

I agree though. I wouldn't want to be a test-case. It would be difficult to tell the difference between the two, probably even while shooting.
Sorry... I misunderstood and hung on the "with detachable magazine" line (which is different for pistols and shotguns leaving room for some to claim the BB is still legal.)

The problem with this modified BHO would be IF the gas system is still in place... the gun is still technically semi-automatic.
One could probably hold the BHO release (thumb of the left hand, using the magwell as a forward grip), and allow the gun to operate in semi-automatic mode.

If the gas system is not present on the upper, it would be more likely to fly (rifle or pistol). In that case, it would be a bolt action gun, the BHO would simply lock the bolt back to allow chambering of the next round.

That would work for an SSE2 build with a zero-round sled locked in.
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  #65  
Old 08-06-2017, 4:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
The problem with this modified BHO would be IF the gas system is still in place... the gun is still technically semi-automatic.
One could probably hold the BHO release (thumb of the left hand, using the magwell as a forward grip), and allow the gun to operate in semi-automatic mode.

If the gas system is not present on the upper, it would be more likely to fly (rifle or pistol). In that case, it would be a bolt action gun, the BHO would simply lock the bolt back to allow chambering of the next round.

That would work for an SSE2 build with a zero-round sled locked in.
If that was the case it wouldn't be compliant for rifle or pistol. I thought the same thing about holding the bolt release too. It may look semi-auto, but the user would still be manually operating the bolt release.

The Tier5 FAQ references the ATF definition of semi-auto, which includes loading the subsequent round. If the firearm does not do that without user interaction, is it still semi-auto by ATF definition?

Who's going to be the test-case in CA?

Disclaimer: nothing posted here is legal advise.
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Last edited by swell1957; 08-06-2017 at 5:07 PM.. Reason: clarify
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  #66  
Old 08-18-2017, 9:15 AM
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  #67  
Old 08-18-2017, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
No.
It's a screw that gets tightened into place in the magazine catch bar.
To remove the magazine, you would have to loosen the screw enough for the magazine catch bar to let the magazine drop.

That method of fixing a magazine in the lower receiver would not meet the new CA definition of a fixed magazine because it does not require "disassembly of the action" in order for the magazine to be removed.
This DIY method will meet the 2017 Fixed Magazine Requirements and is easily reversible (for free state use) and if you have the tools very inexpensive and easy to do. Maintains standard magazine release.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1366673
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  #68  
Old 08-18-2017, 6:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mshill View Post
This DIY method will meet the 2017 Fixed Magazine Requirements and is easily reversible (for free state use) and if you have the tools very inexpensive and easy to do. Maintains standard magazine release.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1366673
That's a completely different method than the DD's Ranch setup
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  #69  
Old 08-19-2017, 4:09 PM
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the Hogue Freedom Fighter looks like the DIY version of the BAD lower, to mod your own.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshill View Post
This DIY method will meet the 2017 Fixed Magazine Requirements and is easily reversible (for free state use) and if you have the tools very inexpensive and easy to do. Maintains standard magazine release.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1366673
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
That's a completely different method than the DD's Ranch setup
That is correct. And I believe it is compliant because the only way to back out the set screw is to open the action. Cheap, reversible for free state or SHTF use.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post

The problem with this modified BHO would be IF the gas system is still in place... the gun is still technically semi-automatic.
One could probably hold the BHO release (thumb of the left hand, using the magwell as a forward grip), and allow the gun to operate in semi-automatic
Justbto be clear, its semi auto not because of gas, but because it operates in semi auto when you hold the bho down.

Other bho devices could solve this and be not semiauto, gas or not.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swell1957 View Post
If that was the case it wouldn't be compliant for rifle or pistol. I thought the same thing about holding the bolt release too. It may look semi-auto, but the user would still be manually operating the bolt release.

The Tier5 FAQ references the ATF definition of semi-auto, which includes loading the subsequent round. If the firearm does not do that without user interaction, is it still semi-auto by ATF definition?

Who's going to be the test-case in CA?

Disclaimer: nothing posted here is legal advise.
Yes, semi auto. Your 1911 is also semi auto, but only if you grip it right.
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  #73  
Old 09-30-2017, 8:51 AM
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What's the opinion on this device, questionable gray area on compliance?

https://maglatchusa.com/collections/...magazine-again
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  #74  
Old 09-30-2017, 9:20 AM
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Originally Posted by DrkSh8ds View Post
What's the opinion on this device, questionable gray area on compliance?

https://maglatchusa.com/collections/...magazine-again
Thats a weird way to sell it, "Never lose your magazine again!
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  #75  
Old 09-30-2017, 9:22 AM
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I wouldn't even want to chance that. They don't even market it as a magazine locking device.


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  #76  
Old 09-30-2017, 9:37 AM
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The upper must be hinged open to remove "the finger" whether the setscrew is installed or not.
Once the finger is removed, it functions as a normal mag release.

My concern is:
If top-loading from a stripper clip or manually, it would be legal.
If removing the magazine, once the finger is out, it is a normal AR mag release and not legal.

I would caution that the finger may only be legally removed with the upper completely separated from the lower, not merely hinged forward.
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  #77  
Old 09-30-2017, 10:31 AM
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DrkSh8ds DrkSh8ds is offline
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I see you point...

So, is this that Mod 1 we heard about back in January but soon after received an letter from ARMaglock lawyers?

https://www.333tactical.com/product-page/calcatch

Last edited by DrkSh8ds; 09-30-2017 at 10:34 AM..
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by one918 View Post
I wouldn't even want to chance that. They don't even market it as a magazine locking device.


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Probably because they don’t want to risk being sued by some douchebag company.

It is a magazine lock and works great.
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
The upper must be hinged open to remove "the finger" whether the setscrew is installed or not.
Once the finger is removed, it functions as a normal mag release.

My concern is:
If top-loading from a stripper clip or manually, it would be legal.
If removing the magazine, once the finger is out, it is a normal AR mag release and not legal.

I would caution that the finger may only be legally removed with the upper completely separated from the lower, not merely hinged forward.
Agreed
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  #80  
Old 09-30-2017, 11:33 AM
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LEAD LAUNCHER LEAD LAUNCHER is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrkSh8ds View Post
What's the opinion on this device, questionable gray area on compliance?

https://maglatchusa.com/collections/...magazine-again

I don't see how this Maglatch is any "grayer" an option than any of these other devices in this thread.

Like the other devices,you ain't getting the mag out until you open the action-whether you are just shaking the fngr out-or unscrewing the screw and shaking it out.

If you think this device does not comply-then you probably don't think the FC Hook does either,as they both do the same thing but are obviously releasing the mag in a different way.

When I saw the ad-I was like WTF?
Why are they saying it's so you don't forget your mag?
Who the hell forgets their mag?

But their AK lock is sold as a compliance device-so yeah-surely it's to keep the Scumbag Owners of ARmagcock away.

Also when I first saw their ad-I saw them shake out the fngr in the video,and thought-how lame..shaking the lock out?

How cheesey!

Then it sunk in....wait..it operates just like an FC hook except when one wants to drop mags like a proper man..instead of taking a few minutes and having to pull the FC hook out to put a proper mag release in,you just open it up and drop the finger out.

Brilliant! Instant Free State rifle.

And no ugly,questionably functioning overpriced doohickey contraptions bolted to the outside of the gun...and no quick release overpriced takedown pins contraption required either.

Granted.. at the range you may want to have purchased some MA or BF loaders..so you can legally load as quickly and efficiently as you can with a fixed mag AR.

..

Last edited by LEAD LAUNCHER; 09-30-2017 at 12:47 PM.. Reason: spelling
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