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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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#1
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We need to change CGNers' CCW advice "policy" for anti counties
I think we CGNers have an unwritten, informal "policy", and thus practice of advising CAians in anti counties not to bother contacting their PDs and SOs with requests for CCWs since they're highly unlikely to get approved, to instead wait until we win Shall Issue via the federal courts (Peruta, etc). At this stage of the game, I now think this policy not only does not help our cause, I think it actually hurts it. I think this made us a miss a golden opportunity after the San Bernardino terrorist attack. We see now there has been a MASSIVE flood of applicants for CCWs in the pro-CCW counties around the state. Telling people in anti counties to not even bother to try in anti counties takes political pressure off of the anti sheriffs, makes them think voters in their counties are content being disarmed sheep. Even just posting that sort of advice should not be done anymore since many potential applicants don't post, they just visit or lurk on CGN and will read that and not bother calling up their SO to ask about getting a CCW. We, CGNers, should now routinely advise people in anti counties to call their sheriffs to POLITELY DEMAND they issue more CCWs. (Remind whoever you deal with that the sheriff is a politician, an elected official who can be replaced at the next election.) (Protesters for all other "civil rights" like "gay marriage" and abortion make "demands" for their rights, why can't we???) We should "be prepared" (as the Boy Scouts say) to follow Democrat Rahm Emmanuel's advice to exploit the next crisis (school shooter, mall shooter, terrorist attack, etc), to ENCOURAGE a MASSIVE number of people to call the anti SOs to POLITELY DEMAND that sheriff issue more CCWs or face the wrath of the voters at the next election. In the past 2 weeks I read about a poll that said after the terrorist attacks (Paris, San Bernardino), Americans thought arming more private citizens was better than more gun control to stop these attacks. http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...make-us-safer/ Terrorists' crises are giving us our political opening, our opportunity. We must not "waste" it by letting it slip by.... ETA: Quote:
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 12-23-2015 at 10:57 PM.. |
#2
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I agree 100%. For far too long the "Right People" convinced anyone that would listen to wait passively and do nothing but write checks while waiting for the courts to ride to our rescue. They were wrong! The courts are not coming to our rescue so we're going to have to rely on political pressure. Anti-rights sheriffs aren't going to like hundreds or thousands of voters showing up and politely demanding CCWs, but it sends them an important message.
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"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." --FREDERIC BASTIAT-- Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, the Second Amendment Foundation, and the California Rifle & Pistol Association |
#3
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Can't argue with facts...
Guess we can encourage noob's to piss into the wind.
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Don't ask how many guns I own, I lost count. |
#4
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The map should be divided into two colors- red indicating 'may issue' and green indicating 'shall issue'. If anyone,... particularly those who made it were being honest, every county would be red.
I must say that I am only in partial agreement with the OP. But, there isn't any rule, informal, unwritten or otherwise suggesting people should not apply to non-issuing agencies. More than anything else, people themselves will not apply because they do not have the resources to burn either to be told 'no' or to waste on complying with unlawful policy requirements. I would encourage people to apply to their county and city agencies according to the lawful process as outlined by the Calguns Foundation. Applicants are not obligated to pay anything other than 20% of the local fees and the LiveScan fee with your application. If they mean to tell you 'no' get it in writing, as per the penal code as it relates to carry licensing. Now, even if there were a flood of applications, this wont do anything but force agencies to warm up their 'denied' rubber stamp. What this does do, is establish that you tried the legal way to carry a gun. Then you need to decide what is important to you- whether your life is worth defending and what risk is necessary to preserve it. For some, that means carrying a loaded concealed pistol. Others, that they leave it unloaded in a locked case, or for that matter, locked in the safe at home. For those who must carry a loaded concealed handgun, the denial letter may become important in the future.
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Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Sometimes the law places the whole apparatus of judges, police, prisons and gendarmes at the service of the plunderers, and treats the victim -- when he defends himself -- as a criminal. Bastiat “Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen.” Friedrich Nietzsche Last edited by QuarterBoreGunner; 12-21-2015 at 8:01 AM.. |
#5
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I personally called the chief of police of my city and spoke to his secretary and she said I could come in and fll out a request for a CCW. I asked how long since one was approved and she did not know, it was more than 20+ years because that's how long she had worked there. So, technically, he "may issue" one but that's as likely as a unicorn walking in the door. |
#6
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#7
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Anyone can go thru CGF's last state-wide CCW survey and see that CitaDeL doesn't know what he's talking about claiming every county should be considered the same: CGF's Dec 2013 state-wide survey of CCW issuance: http://calgunsfoundation.org/carry-i...eport-2013.pdf Or compare what this news article found re. CCW issuance as of Dec 2014. Even they say in the title of their article, "Want to carry a concealed gun? Live in Sacramento, not San Francisco." https://www.revealnews.org/article/w...san-francisco/ Or, you can merely read the last few pages of posts in Sac, San Joaquin, Merced, Stanislaus, Ventura, Orange and Riverside and see that there's no equivalence between them and, let's say Alameda, CoCoCo, Santa Clara, Los Angeles or any of the other red/dark red counties. FWIW his whole rant was Off Topic. Back on topic now... Quote:
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 12-23-2015 at 10:27 PM.. Reason: eliminate the useless drama |
#8
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I can tell you that one notorious "non-issue - no way" jurisdiction issued recently to someone who had all their ducks in a row. Based on that, I have a faint hope that someone close to me (every cert a civilian can have in terms of training, does a lot of public service work in parts of the County that are high crime) might also be approved. Not that I'm optimistic - or that these infringements are in any way legal - but I think there are enough facts in the record to start to concern even the most recalcitrant public official (outside of LA & Yolo County) that continued total head up the arse is a path not well taken.
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Proud CGN Contributor USMC Pistol Team Alumni - Distinguished Pistol Shot Owner of multiple Constitutionally protected tools |
#9
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http://govnews.ca.gov/gov39mail/mail.php Thank your neighbor and fellow gun owners for passing Prop 63. For that gun control is a winning legislative agenda. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6Dj8tdSC1A contact the governor https://govnews.ca.gov/gov39mail/mail.php In Memory of Spc Torres May 5th 2006 al-Hillah, Iraq. I will miss you my friend. NRA Life Member. |
#10
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On your suggestion that people 'politely' do anything; some of these people you are suggesting we politely demand are going to politely say 'no'. A flood of inquiries or applications isn't going to change their mind. Whosoever wants to carry a gun should go apply whether or not their issuing agency is reputed to issue. If it is a 'no' let them put it in writing. Applicants shouldn't be awaiting the go ahead from anyone, because both issuing agencies and gun rights advocates shouldn't be making your decisions about whether or not you are armed in public with a loaded handgun. That is your responsibility and your choice to make. It is not a political wedge that has any power in California.
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Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Sometimes the law places the whole apparatus of judges, police, prisons and gendarmes at the service of the plunderers, and treats the victim -- when he defends himself -- as a criminal. Bastiat “Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen.” Friedrich Nietzsche |
#11
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"The best gun is the one you'll have on you when you need it the most, the one you know how to use, the one that goes BANG every single time you pull the trigger. Whether that gun cost you $349 or $1,100 it's worth every penny if it saves your life, or the life of someone you love.” -Tim Schmit, CCW Magazine July 2015 NRA Lifetime Member : CalGuns Lifetime Member : GOA Lifetime Member Last edited by baggss; 12-21-2015 at 10:59 AM.. |
#12
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Everyone should apply regardless of whether they will get their CCWor not. You should be telling everyone you know to apply to get theirs also regardless if they plan to ever carry or not. The momentum for CCW is starting to roll in our favor and we need to give it a push.
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#13
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"The best gun is the one you'll have on you when you need it the most, the one you know how to use, the one that goes BANG every single time you pull the trigger. Whether that gun cost you $349 or $1,100 it's worth every penny if it saves your life, or the life of someone you love.” -Tim Schmit, CCW Magazine July 2015 NRA Lifetime Member : CalGuns Lifetime Member : GOA Lifetime Member |
#14
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City police Dept's can issue as well if they choose to. But most cede that authority to the Sheriff of there county.
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"Freedom begins with an act of defiance" Quote for the day: Quote:
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#15
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#16
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'Virtual shall issue' is exactly the same as saying 'may issue light' and like cigarettes that boast a filter, it has that 'but' hanging out littering the second amendment with a litany of conditions that would result in a revocation. If they can take it back because they changed their mind, it is worth less than if you never paid for a carry license to begin with. Quote:
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Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Sometimes the law places the whole apparatus of judges, police, prisons and gendarmes at the service of the plunderers, and treats the victim -- when he defends himself -- as a criminal. Bastiat “Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen.” Friedrich Nietzsche |
#17
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Citadel, it's obvious you've got an axe to grind (which we need an emoji for) but you're not helping the process with your comments. Demanding to change the map from a useful infographic to something all red just to make a redundant statement is a waste. As it stands, the map currently has some validity in demonstrating what your odds are of getting your ccw.
Also, your not so subtle insinuation that people should apply, get denied and then carry anyway and that the "no letter" may legally help them down the road is ridiculous and against board rules. There is ZERO precedent that getting denied for a ccw would trigger some sort of legal defense for carrying illegally. If anything it will open the door for the prosecution to argue that you weren't considered fit to carry and went ahead and did it anyway, proving that the Sheriff was right in his determination.
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If you are wondering if you can get a LTC in Riverside County: THE ANSWER IS YES! Join the discussion at:http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=352777 |
#18
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Interesting since he lives in a "May issue Lite" county. Sounds like someone who lives in a red county or maybe was denied for reasons he can't explain. Or maybe he just wants to grind that axe and screw the pooch for all of us.
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"The best gun is the one you'll have on you when you need it the most, the one you know how to use, the one that goes BANG every single time you pull the trigger. Whether that gun cost you $349 or $1,100 it's worth every penny if it saves your life, or the life of someone you love.” -Tim Schmit, CCW Magazine July 2015 NRA Lifetime Member : CalGuns Lifetime Member : GOA Lifetime Member Last edited by baggss; 12-22-2015 at 6:50 AM.. |
#19
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Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Sometimes the law places the whole apparatus of judges, police, prisons and gendarmes at the service of the plunderers, and treats the victim -- when he defends himself -- as a criminal. Bastiat “Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen.” Friedrich Nietzsche |
#20
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"The best gun is the one you'll have on you when you need it the most, the one you know how to use, the one that goes BANG every single time you pull the trigger. Whether that gun cost you $349 or $1,100 it's worth every penny if it saves your life, or the life of someone you love.” -Tim Schmit, CCW Magazine July 2015 NRA Lifetime Member : CalGuns Lifetime Member : GOA Lifetime Member |
#21
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To the OP. I routinely can't even get people to go shooting, join NRA, write a freakin' letter to xyz!
I typically don't bs people who ask. Not to deter but because it's the honest truth. "Can I get my permit in LA?" "Not very likely." But you're saying I should say "Not very likely but you should do it anyway for the cause."? I like citadels stilo. Screw 'em all. They stand in the way of our God given right to self defense and we're supposed to thank them and ask for more please? Nah.
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Stand up and be counted, or lay down and be mounted... -Mac |
#22
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If you are wondering if you can get a LTC in Riverside County: THE ANSWER IS YES! Join the discussion at:http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=352777 |
#23
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more often the SD issues more than the PD of the city a person lives in. that is all I have ever known is the SD is the issuing agency for many.
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http://govnews.ca.gov/gov39mail/mail.php Thank your neighbor and fellow gun owners for passing Prop 63. For that gun control is a winning legislative agenda. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6Dj8tdSC1A contact the governor https://govnews.ca.gov/gov39mail/mail.php In Memory of Spc Torres May 5th 2006 al-Hillah, Iraq. I will miss you my friend. NRA Life Member. |
#24
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Might I add, if you live in a county that issues to contact your Sheriff and thank them for their policy. Positive encouragement for those who are doing the right thing.
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#25
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No, it is not.
It's the difference between saying "I demand that you start accepting a desire to be able to defend yourself as sufficient Good Cause, or else I will actively fight against your reelection, and get my family, friends and everybody else I know to do so as well" and saying, "You are a disgrace to that uniform, have broken your oath to uphold the Constitution, and ought to be tried for treason and shot. Molon Labe, MF'er!"
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. |
#26
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The map is not invalid. It does not claim CA or any of its counties are "Shall Issue." It's purpose is to show the current difficulty/ease for which the average, law-abiding gun owner has in passing their sheriff's GC standard, not even GMC (and, yes, I've already asked the map maker to state that as well). It is to give potential applicants an idea of how high a bar they are facing in applying in any particular county. It is an encouragement for those in light or dark green counties, and a wake-up call for those in yellow, light red or dark red counties. That is its purpose and I believe it fulfills that purpose. Quote:
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. |
#27
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(2) We're still May Issue and yet much has changed if you compare the old, 2010 map to the current one, or view old CA DOJ CCW issuance stats. I have stats going back to 1987 and between then and 2000 we stayed between ~30,000 and ~40,000 CCWs. We've roughly doubled the # of CCWs now, to >70,000, and that was before the bulk of Ventura, OC, Merced, and San Joaquin applicants applied this year. I expect another spike increase due to the Paris & San Bernardino attacks (those apps mostly getting approved in 2016). So, come Jan 2017, I think we may break, for the first time I know of, 100,000 issued CCWs! While great news, it would be MUCH higher if we win Peruta. But a win is a win, and we're fighting at the county level at this point. Either way, saying "nothing will change" without de jure Shall Issue is clearly false.
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. Last edited by Paladin; 12-23-2015 at 11:13 PM.. |
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. |
#29
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QFT. It is too easy to think "It's our right!" and forget that, in this state, they are swimming against the stream. We need to express our appreciation for the sticking to their guns.
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240+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives. |
#30
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However, even if we win Peruta the state is likely to do nothing and the Sheriffs who choose to do so will simply use the "good morals" clause to obfuscate as long as they can. Another lawsuit is, IIRC, already workings it's way through in regards to that bit of chicanery, but until the the legislature changes the wording of the law, we will still be "may issue" even though we could effectively be "shall issue". Once we get to that point the legislature will simply find a way to change the rules again, they're not going to go for shall issue. Ever.
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"The best gun is the one you'll have on you when you need it the most, the one you know how to use, the one that goes BANG every single time you pull the trigger. Whether that gun cost you $349 or $1,100 it's worth every penny if it saves your life, or the life of someone you love.” -Tim Schmit, CCW Magazine July 2015 NRA Lifetime Member : CalGuns Lifetime Member : GOA Lifetime Member |
#31
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Not trying to be a naysayer, there's nothing wrong with your concept. Practically speaking though...it just seems a non-starter w/ very little impact (because I foresee very little numbers following through, not because it wouldn't be effective). But OK, I'm on board. "Contact your sheriffs and ask them to issue more CCW's" |
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