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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 03-15-2009, 6:53 PM
Untamed1972 Untamed1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by RP1911 View Post
I believe once you say you are transporting firearm(s), that gives an LE the authority to check if the firearm(s) is loaded or not.
Is that like the 12031e check? If so isn't that only for concealable firearms? Rifles would not be included in that correct?

But also, that would seem to be unconstitutional, except for the open carry issue. Because that would mean you are either required to lie and say you have nothing, or submit to a warrantless search of your vehicle simply because you are legally transporting firearms. Where does it say that transporting firearms also comes with an automatic waiver of 4A rights?

I guess perhaps the better answer if ask about weapons would be to just sa nothing huh?
  #82  
Old 03-15-2009, 6:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 12voltguy View Post
then he should have not posted at all.....
I personally would have waited for my attorney to decide whether a press release should be issued along the lines of DC handgun roster lawsuit one.
  #83  
Old 03-15-2009, 6:58 PM
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Originally Posted by N6ATF View Post
Quit speculating. Any information revealed here, outside confidential attorney-client conferences, will be read by the enemy and used to formulate their strategy on how best to screw him over. As such, they should not be given ANYTHING.
They let him go and didnt take any of his stuff. Why should they be looking to screw him over now after they let him go?

But also by that logic.....should the same caution allpy then about posting pics and vids online? Seems like that was a big part of what got Corwin in trouble. If nothing had ever been posted online the COPs would have had nothing to go on or be concerned about? Yes.....a person has a 1A right to do so.....I just have to ask myself: In the current climate of things is it personally prudent to do so?
  #84  
Old 03-15-2009, 7:08 PM
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I'm glad you got your stuff back, good to be prepared. I'm be watching this topic closely.
  #85  
Old 03-15-2009, 7:10 PM
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Now have to have a voice activated recorder on person any time while driving with our gun(s)?

Video backup in the car?

Crazyness indeed...
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  #86  
Old 03-15-2009, 7:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
They let him go and didnt take any of his stuff. Why should they be looking to screw him over now after they let him go?

But also by that logic.....should the same caution allpy then about posting pics and vids online? Seems like that was a big part of what got Corwin in trouble. If nothing had ever been posted online the COPs would have had nothing to go on or be concerned about? Yes.....a person has a 1A right to do so.....I just have to ask myself: In the current climate of things is it personally prudent to do so?
One of the other members here is getting royally screwed after "they let him go". He is not alone in being a victim of this evil "we're not done with you yet, prole!" tactic. Even if they don't do this, it is not tactically sound to reveal anything about a pending lawsuit so the enemy can prepare their response strategy.

The simple fact is if you have a gun and you do nothing wrong with it, you still need to be prepared for the traitors in government to put you through hell for having one.

Are you?
  #87  
Old 03-15-2009, 7:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12voltguy View Post
then he should have not posted at all.....
I tend to agree here.

If there is a matter for which exposure is minimal (or non-existant) and public disclosure is a non-issue, post.

If there is a matter for which exposure is high and disclosure is imprudent, send an email to CGF (and/or a PM to Bill and Gene et al.) and don't post anything- let counsel decide when and what to make public.

Definitely glad to see that the incident appears to be a limited one and he's safe and sound at home.
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  #88  
Old 03-15-2009, 7:19 PM
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Whyt are people offended that he posted? Did it cost you money when he did so? No?

It could be that he's letting us know this is happening. It could be he is letting us know in case there is another raid on his house, ala Phil Dominguez. It could be he is asking for some moral support.

Chill...............
  #89  
Old 03-15-2009, 7:22 PM
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Originally Posted by N6ATF View Post
One of the other members here is getting royally screwed after "they let him go". He is not alone in being a victim of this evil "we're not done with you yet, prole!" tactic. Even if they don't do this, it is not tactically sound to reveal anything about a pending lawsuit so the enemy can prepare their response strategy.

The simple fact is if you have a gun and you do nothing wrong with it, you still need to be prepared for the traitors in government to put you through hell for having one.

Are you?

Well I do agree with that.....that's why my first post in this thread was stating it might be wise to store his guns somewhere else for awhile in case of a wakeup call from the gun squad. I do understand there are numerous ways for the LEOs to get at you. So that's why I asked about the best way to answer the question is asked about weapons in the car? I'm still guessin' the best way to handle it is to just say nothing. If LEOs wanna get in my car they're gonna have to do it w/o me giving them cause or permission to do so.

There also is a difference between being arrested and released OR or on bail and being detained and released w/o arrest. Not to say that the LEOs couldn't go seek a search warrant based on info at the time of the detention even though they didn't have enough on him to arrest him at the time. But I would ask that if the LEOs are really trolling these MB's looking for stuff to get people on, how wise is it to be posting text and pics and vids about what you own, where you're going, what you're doing and so on? Yes....you have a right to but is it tactically wise to do so?

Last edited by Untamed1972; 03-15-2009 at 7:31 PM..
  #90  
Old 03-15-2009, 7:26 PM
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Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
Whyt are people offended that he posted? Did it cost you money when he did so? No?

It could be that he's letting us know this is happening. It could be he is letting us know in case there is another raid on his house, ala Phil Dominguez. It could be he is asking for some moral support.

Chill...............
I don't think anyone is offended. We're here for moral support.

The majority of the concern has been of a legal nature... chill.
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  #91  
Old 03-15-2009, 7:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vrand View Post
Now have to have a voice activated recorder on person any time while driving with our gun(s)?
There have been times when I was pulled over for speeding when I wished for a camera or recorder of some sort.

The cops around here (Auburn PD) like to bully people for no reason, and I had my share when I was a teen learning to drive.

The majority of police won't do things like that, however in case you're unlucky and get one who does a recorder is a nice thing to have.

To the OP - glad you didn't get arrested or anything, too bad they decided to hold you for ~3 hours. They probably had nothing better to do.
  #92  
Old 03-15-2009, 7:35 PM
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The people saying he shouldn't post are not in his shoes. It hasn't been all about legal stuff, although some has. Some people are just second-guessing. I can tell the difference. I would not have posted if not for the second guessers and complainers. (at least that's how I see them)

Last edited by eaglemike; 03-15-2009 at 7:46 PM.. Reason: typo
  #93  
Old 03-15-2009, 7:38 PM
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Yep, you already have our moral support 110%. You don't need to post any details to get it.

We don't subscribe to the belief of traitors in government that gun owners are guilty as sin just for having guns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
Well I do agree with that.....that's why my first post in this thread was stating it might be wise to store his guns somewhere else for awhile in case of a wakeup call from the gun squad.
I would not be surprised if anyone who suggests or agrees with that gets a no-knock warrant served on their residence with the supporting affidavit written with perjurious statements by a fake expert claiming that fully-automatic machine guns or something to make the judge crap his pants are being stored there.

Quote:
I do understand there are numerous ways for the LEOs to get at you. So that's why I asked about the best way to answer the question is asked about weapons in the car? I'm still guessin' the best way to handle it is to just say nothing. If LEOs wanna get in my car they're gonna have to do it w/o me giving them cause or permission to do so.
Right. They need consent or a warrant, and cannot get either, in theory.

Quote:
But I would ask that if the LEOs are really trolling these MB's looking for stuff to get people on, how wise is it to be posting text and pics and vids about what you own, where you're going, what you're doing and so on? Yes....you have a right to but is it tactically wise to do so?
IP logs published by the admins seem to indicate this site is well-known to authorities statewide and federally. I can't speak to anything other than pending cases. They'd have to be absolute idiots not to look here for details they can twist to screw over law-abiding citizens who rightfully sue them.

Last edited by N6ATF; 03-15-2009 at 7:52 PM..
  #94  
Old 03-15-2009, 7:47 PM
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Originally Posted by N6ATF View Post
Yep, you already have our moral support 110%. You don't need to post any details to get it.

We don't subscribe to the belief of traitors in government that gun owners are guilty as sin just for having guns.
what he said..... ^^^^
  #95  
Old 03-15-2009, 7:52 PM
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Are we allowed to request the video/audio recordings of the police officer's camera during the stop? Generally speaking.
  #96  
Old 03-15-2009, 7:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
Is that like the 12031e check? If so isn't that only for concealable firearms? Rifles would not be included in that correct?

But also, that would seem to be unconstitutional, except for the open carry issue. Because that would mean you are either required to lie and say you have nothing, or submit to a warrantless search of your vehicle simply because you are legally transporting firearms. Where does it say that transporting firearms also comes with an automatic waiver of 4A rights?

12031(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.


Bolded for emphasis.
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Last edited by RP1911; 03-15-2009 at 7:58 PM..
  #97  
Old 03-15-2009, 7:55 PM
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Originally Posted by xLusi0n View Post
Are we allowed to request the video/audio recordings of the police officer's camera during the stop? Generally speaking.
During your stop, you and your attorney can request recordings of it. Pretty sure it's a PRA request if no criminal prosecution is made, and it should be included in discovery if there is a criminal prosecution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RP1911 View Post
12031(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.


Bolded for emphasis.
If it's in an opaque locked case that does not indicate the presence of a gun inside, they need probable cause and a warrant to get inside. Fishing expeditions and psychic premonitions are not acceptable to force a 12031(e) check on a gun they never saw and therefore can't confirm the existence of.

Last edited by N6ATF; 03-15-2009 at 8:00 PM..
  #98  
Old 03-15-2009, 8:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
.....that's why my first post in this thread was stating it might be wise to store his guns somewhere else for awhile in case of a wakeup call from the gun squad.
Tamed, that's the second time you've said this.

WTH? Are you speaking of special "black helicopter and SWAT teams" that harass law abiding citizens legally in possession of legal firearms? Please expound.
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Old 03-15-2009, 8:06 PM
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Originally Posted by RP1911 View Post
12031(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.


Bolded for emphasis.
Roger that RP1911. Thanks for the clarification. Sounds like that REALLY needs to be challenged on 4A grounds. So again.....as long as they're outta site if asked the best response is prolly none at all. Sounds like LE agencies could start using the "e" check to the extreme as a retaliation against UOC movement. ie 'Fine....you wanna UOC then we'll just "e" check EVERY gun we come across." Just seems like an instance where being law-abiding and cooperative will just bite you in the butt.

I mean honestly......if an officer asked and you said "I'm coming from the range, I have an unloaded rifle locked in the trunk" and it's obviously NOT openly visibly or in the passenger compartment, why would he need to then go to the extra effort of "e" checking it other then to cause hassle?
  #100  
Old 03-15-2009, 8:23 PM
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Originally Posted by N6ATF View Post
During your stop, you and your attorney can request recordings of it. Pretty sure it's a PRA request if no criminal prosecution is made, and it should be included in discovery if there is a criminal prosecution.



If it's in an opaque locked case that does not indicate the presence of a gun inside, they need probable cause and a warrant to get inside. Fishing expeditions and psychic premonitions are not acceptable to force a 12031(e) check on a gun they never saw and therefore can't confirm the existence of.

Right. But, if you are asked and you say you have a gun, then they can check. That's why in my initial response I said, if you say you are transporting firearm(s).....
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  #101  
Old 03-15-2009, 8:27 PM
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Lawyers can subpeona records -

Quote:
Originally Posted by xLusi0n View Post
Are we allowed to request the video/audio recordings of the police officer's camera during the stop? Generally speaking.
  #102  
Old 03-15-2009, 8:28 PM
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I like it that he had posted - It speaks volumm of our forum - He came here seeking help and advice -


Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
Whyt are people offended that he posted? Did it cost you money when he did so? No?

It could be that he's letting us know this is happening. It could be he is letting us know in case there is another raid on his house, ala Phil Dominguez. It could be he is asking for some moral support.

Chill...............
  #103  
Old 03-15-2009, 8:29 PM
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traitors in government
Please explain who this is.
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  #104  
Old 03-15-2009, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by SubstanceP View Post
Tamed, that's the second time you've said this.

WTH? Are you speaking of special "black helicopter and SWAT teams" that harass law abiding citizens legally in possession of legal firearms? Please expound.
Check out Phil Dominguez' case.
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  #105  
Old 03-15-2009, 8:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SubstanceP View Post
Tamed, that's the second time you've said this.

WTH? Are you speaking of special "black helicopter and SWAT teams" that harass law abiding citizens legally in possession of legal firearms? Please expound.
No....just bouncing off the comments others have made and what I've read in the legal cases section about peoples houses getting raided after detentions or nondescript video postings on the internet that don't prove anything including whether or not alleged illegal weapons or use thereof actually even occurred in the state where the warrant was sought and issued. That is all stuff that HAS already happened......so yes....it does cause me concern that a simple contact with a LEO or something posted on the internet could find me with me door getting kicked in by the LEOs at 6am. So after reading all of that and knowing that it DOES happen then if I were to be the subject of a detention as described in the OP....I would have concern for awhile that I could be subject to a further raid for god only knows why. And from what I've read in regard to those other cases all the searches turned up were other completely legal weapons that oddly enough were STILL SEIZED!

So is it really such an irrational fear? I dont think so.....sounds to me like it's totally possible for a seeminly innocuous traffic stop to turn into a HUGE freakin' mess for no reason.
  #106  
Old 03-15-2009, 8:38 PM
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Hey ENTHUSIAST,
Sorry to hear about your detention. I hope the situation does not escalate any further, at least in a negative manner for you.

Although it seems you have already contacted those who are most familiar with legal repercussions; just wanted to let you know that the community has your back.

We met briefly at the last San Diego OC meet, and everyone knows you are a standup guy.

If you need any other support, financial, moral or otherwise let us know.

-lorax
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  #107  
Old 03-15-2009, 8:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
Just seems like an instance where being law-abiding and cooperative will just bite you in the butt.

I mean honestly......if an officer asked and you said "I'm coming from the range, I have an unloaded rifle locked in the trunk" and it's obviously NOT openly visibly or in the passenger compartment, why would he need to then go to the extra effort of "e" checking it other then to cause hassle?
As soon as you tell an officer that you have a firearm in the car they have the right to check and make sure it's unloaded. The correct way to handle getting pulled over on the way to and from the range is as follows:

Officer: Do you have any firearms in the vehicle?
Driver: I have nothing illegal in my vehicle, but I do not consent to any searches. Am I being detained, officer, or am I free to go.
  #108  
Old 03-15-2009, 8:53 PM
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I have been pulled over dozens of times, and never been asked about firearms in the car or truck, I'm feeling left out
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Old 03-15-2009, 8:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ChuckBooty View Post
As soon as you tell an officer that you have a firearm in the car they have the right to check and make sure it's unloaded.
I understand they have a right to check it (even though that still seems very 4A unconstitutional to me especially since do so means the LEO is now permitted access to my trunk which can now be visually searched as well, essentially because I am legally transporting a legal firearm in my legal car on a legal street, this law essentially means I'm waiving my 4A rights anytime I leave my property with a gun. Having to submit to a search for doing everything legal is the essence of unreasonable search and seizure). My feeling is that although they have "right" to check it once they are aware of it the law does not state they are require or obligated to check it. So absent any other pressing concern why would an officer feel the NEED to "e" a weapon locked in the trunk?
  #110  
Old 03-15-2009, 9:01 PM
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Throw up a gang sign next time - LOL -

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I have been pulled over dozens of times, and never been asked about firearms in the car or truck, I'm feeling left out
  #111  
Old 03-15-2009, 9:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
There have been times when I was pulled over for speeding when I wished for a camera or recorder of some sort.

The cops around here (Auburn PD) like to bully people for no reason, and I had my share when I was a teen learning to drive.

The majority of police won't do things like that, however in case you're unlucky and get one who does a recorder is a nice thing to have.

To the OP - glad you didn't get arrested or anything, too bad they decided to hold you for ~3 hours. They probably had nothing better to do.
I think there was a recent case showing that it was not legal and inadmissible for the civilian to tape the conversation with arresting officers. Just remember thinking what the F when I heard teh verdict a long while a go.


and as to why post - how many of us here have all the personal contact information of the "right people"?

Unless he was waving teh guns or had a glass trunk lid, who bothered to report this person, with a car/license description to get him pulled over?


Did you guys at BBM draw a big crowd? Or maybe someone was watching here and went specifically looking for anyone with questionable looking firearms?

May be something to keep an eye out for - lurkers a little distance away just kinda watching.

with high powered binocs/spotting scopes/vidcam...


and just a good reason to also do one extra double check of everything as you put it into the car before driving off the range!


have a few guns and forget to clear one, or a last unfired round in a mag...
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  #112  
Old 03-15-2009, 9:17 PM
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Originally Posted by USN CHIEF View Post
BLM land had nothing to do with it or where the OP went shooting at. Like I said before, this could happen to any Gun Owner coming from any shooting range. It sucks that it happened to Enthusiast, but I am somewhat glad that it happened to him and not some other Cal Gunner that is not well versed with the OLL laws.

IT HAS BEEN SAID MANY TIMES BEFORE PEOPLE, PLEASE KNOW AND CARRY ALL THE OLL DOCUMENTS THAT SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM THAT YOUR OLL GUNS ARE LEGAL TO OWN IN CA. KNOW THE LAW ABOUT HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES AND CARRY EVIDENCE THAT IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO POSSES/OWN HIGH CAPACITY MAGS

Thank God Enthusiast had all the required documents demonstrating that everything that he had was legal. If he had not had any of the paper work and it had been just his word, his guns/mags/gear would no be with him.

And hopefully "the right people" will give the green light for the OP to post details so that everyone WILL START CARRYING all the stuff that I described above.
Are those documents posted on this forum? I need a copy to carry in my vehicle.
  #113  
Old 03-15-2009, 9:18 PM
TJ01 TJ01 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChuckBooty View Post
As soon as you tell an officer that you have a firearm in the car they have the right to check and make sure it's unloaded. The correct way to handle getting pulled over on the way to and from the range is as follows:

Officer: Do you have any firearms in the vehicle?
Driver: I have nothing illegal in my vehicle, but I do not consent to any searches. Am I being detained, officer, or am I free to go.
Seems like that might tip the cop off. He'd probably keep asking, and I suspect at some point, a failure to answer could end up causing yourself more trouble.
  #114  
Old 03-15-2009, 9:19 PM
N6ATF N6ATF is offline
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Originally Posted by paladin4415 View Post
Please explain who this is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ01 View Post
Seems like that might tip the cop off. He'd probably keep asking, and I suspect at some point, a failure to answer could end up causing yourself more trouble.
Yep, when the rule that silence does not constitute an admission of guilt is outright ignored by those who violate their oaths to follow the Constitution.

Last edited by N6ATF; 03-15-2009 at 9:23 PM..
  #115  
Old 03-15-2009, 9:28 PM
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Yep, when the rule that silence does not constitute an admission of guilt is outright ignored by those who violate their oaths to follow the Constitution.
I see your point. I guess the real issue is whether or not you are required to answer the firearms in the vehicle question in the first place; and if you are required to, and you don't answer, is that the same thing as refusing to allow an "inspection."
  #116  
Old 03-15-2009, 9:34 PM
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There was no cause to throw up the troll at me. All I did was politely ask who you were referring to.

...and I would still like to know.
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  #117  
Old 03-15-2009, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TJ01 View Post
I see your point. I guess the real issue is whether or not you are required to answer the firearms in the vehicle question in the first place; and if you are required to, and you don't answer, is that the same thing as refusing to allow an "inspection."
I know of no statute that requires you to answer that question.
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One guy walks over to the black rifle area and starts gazing. An employee asked him if he knew what he wanted. The guy answered "Not sure......definitely something black.............and short...............and tactical."

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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  #118  
Old 03-15-2009, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by N6ATF View Post
During your stop, you and your attorney can request recordings of it. Pretty sure it's a PRA request if no criminal prosecution is made, and it should be included in discovery if there is a criminal prosecution.



If it's in an opaque locked case that does not indicate the presence of a gun inside, they need probable cause and a warrant to get inside. Fishing expeditions and psychic premonitions are not acceptable to force a 12031(e) check on a gun they never saw and therefore can't confirm the existence of.
+1
However.. If I have someone in a detention ... during my day/evening/night job... and the detention is 3 hours... and there is not a reasonable assumption that anyone is going to jail... and the only reason I am detaining them is that I am ignorant of the law... or that the law is so confusing no reasonable person could understand it... that might be a problem... personally, the most I have ever detained anyone without placing them under arrest is about an hour... usually I have PC to arrest in less time... this smells like ignorance to me...
  #119  
Old 03-15-2009, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TJ01 View Post
Seems like that might tip the cop off. He'd probably keep asking, and I suspect at some point, a failure to answer could end up causing yourself more trouble.
Couldnt you just lie to the cop about having firearms in the vehicle? Or is that obstructing justice or something of that nature?

I do realize that its just best not to answer questions PERIOD!
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  #120  
Old 03-15-2009, 10:04 PM
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Wow THANKS for all the moral support guys!!!

I have just finished typing the transcript of the audio portion and "the right people" (email sent) have that in their inbox as I type this... now I look foreward to putting the rest of the the stop that was not on tape into another lengthy email!

I knew you guys would be like wolves for all the juicy details but DAMN!!!

Trust me I cant wait to correct a few errors and misconceptions found in many of the responses in this thread but PLEASE BE PATIENT I have been working on typing out everything throughout the entire day (slow typer) and sensory overload got to me yesterday try to put yourself in my shoes for a second... for those that already have THANKS guys for being there when a brother needs it!
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