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  #201  
Old 11-21-2017, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Hugga Nugga View Post
Fair enough. Just making a general observation. My take is that I have enough to focus on personally and i certainly don't know another's heart, but I did react to the idea of "earned" salvation.
Thanks. When I say "earned", I mean living your life as Christ taught (to the best of your ability), and not by following arbitrary religious dogma invented by men who wanted to control our beliefs.
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  #202  
Old 11-21-2017, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
Thanks. When I say "earned", I mean living your life as Christ taught (to the best of your ability), and not by following arbitrary religious dogma invented by men who wanted to control our beliefs.
Thats something you do because of your faith, and not to earn favor. We cannot earn salvation, but when we come to saving grace, we show our faith by our fruits

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Philippians 4:8-9
8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. 9 The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

Ephesians 2:8-10

8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
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M. Sage's I have a dream speech;

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Originally Posted by M. Sage View Post
I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.
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  #203  
Old 11-21-2017, 1:47 PM
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Originally Posted by colossians323 View Post
Thats something you do because of your faith, and not to earn favor. We cannot earn salvation, but when we come to saving grace, we show our faith by our fruits
I didn't mean to suggest or imply in my example that somebody who acts as Jesus taught does so only because they expect a reward.

By acting as Jesus taught, people can absolutely earn a place in heaven, even if that isn't why they act the way they do.

Last edited by theLBC; 11-21-2017 at 2:02 PM..
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  #204  
Old 11-21-2017, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
I didn't mean to suggest or imply in my example that somebody who acts as Jesus taught does so only because they expect a reward.

By acting as Jesus taught, people can absolutely earn a place in heaven, even if that isn't why they act the way they do.
well your argument clearly goes against Gods word. No one can act to earn, at least according to scriptures. You can't earn something you don't deserve, you can only accept it as a gift
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M. Sage's I have a dream speech;

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Originally Posted by M. Sage View Post
I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.
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  #205  
Old 11-21-2017, 2:58 PM
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well your argument clearly goes against Gods word. No one can act to earn, at least according to scriptures. You can't earn something you don't deserve, you can only accept it as a gift
According to what i learned as a child, you can follow Christ and earn everlasting life, or not, and not.

While it may not be your decision (whether God accepts you into heaven) it certainly isn't completely out of your hands as to whether or not you might deserve that gift.

of course, you are entitled to disagree.

If what we do or how we act has no bearing on our afterlife, there isn't much incentive to do the right thing.
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  #206  
Old 11-21-2017, 7:32 PM
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Now this is an interesting thread. Begins with the Reformation, then digresses into the iconoclast controversy, then on to the canon of Scripture and winds its way through comparative religion. The posts range from fairly thoughtful to breathtakingly idiotic. I find it incredibly presumptuous for people to tell God who God can let into heaven and who God cannot. Or people who presume to have the authority to judge who is a Christian and who is not. Also cringeworthy are the folks who rip verses of scripture out of context and pile them one on top of the other until they prove that they and they alone are the only true believer alive today. Breathtaking.

But this one post stands out as the most ironic Calguns post of the century.

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Originally Posted by colossians323 View Post
Thats something you do because of your faith, and not to earn favor. We cannot earn salvation, but when we come to saving grace, we show our faith by our fruits
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  #207  
Old 11-21-2017, 8:55 PM
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Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
if you believe jesus christ and what he taught, you are a christian.
all the dogma simply confuses the issue. it isn't a competition for who is right.
^^

/thread
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  #208  
Old 11-21-2017, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by carlosdanger View Post
Now this is an interesting thread. Begins with the Reformation, then digresses into the iconoclast controversy, then on to the canon of Scripture and winds its way through comparative religion. The posts range from fairly thoughtful to breathtakingly idiotic. I find it incredibly presumptuous for people to tell God who God can let into heaven and who God cannot. Or people who presume to have the authority to judge who is a Christian and who is not. Also cringeworthy are the folks who rip verses of scripture out of context and pile them one on top of the other until they prove that they and they alone are the only true believer alive today. Breathtaking.

But this one post stands out as the most ironic Calguns post of the century.
Your irony shows your faith, or lack thereof
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M. Sage's I have a dream speech;

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Originally Posted by M. Sage View Post
I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.
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  #209  
Old 11-21-2017, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mosinnagantm9130 View Post
^^

/thread
unfortunately you didn't see where he went to, he went to he can earn his salvation, so the thread didn't end where you hoped it would. Work as hard as you want, you can never earn it
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M. Sage's I have a dream speech;

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Originally Posted by M. Sage View Post
I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.
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  #210  
Old 11-21-2017, 9:39 PM
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Originally Posted by colossians323 View Post
unfortunately you didn't see where he went to, he went to he can earn his salvation, so the thread didn't end where you hoped it would. Work as hard as you want, you can never earn it

You seem to believe that i have implied a theoretical requisite list of tasks, which if completed, would earn a soul's entrance into heaven.
i said no such thing.

" When I say "earned", I mean living your life as Christ taught (to the best of your ability), and not by following arbitrary religious dogma invented by men who wanted to control our beliefs."

if you are hung up on semantics, you may prefer:
one must follow the teachings of Christ, if he hopes to "receive" the gift of eternal salvation.

/and if he does make it to heaven, he earned it.

Last edited by theLBC; 11-21-2017 at 9:42 PM..
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  #211  
Old 11-21-2017, 10:25 PM
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This thread be

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  #212  
Old 11-22-2017, 8:25 AM
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Originally Posted by uxo2 View Post
This thread be

Are you talking about Christianity the religion which follows the teachings of Jesus like feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, healing the sick, giving shelter to the homeless, and visiting the prisoner?

Or Christianity the nationalistic/political movement which votes for a child molester over a Democrat?
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  #213  
Old 11-22-2017, 8:28 AM
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  #214  
Old 11-22-2017, 8:39 AM
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Originally Posted by carlosdanger View Post
Are you talking about Christianity the religion which follows the teachings of Jesus like feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, healing the sick, giving shelter to the homeless, and visiting the prisoner?

Or Christianity the nationalistic/political movement which votes for a child molester over a Democrat?
Wow, judge and jury. Do you convict democrats based on allegations, too?
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  #215  
Old 11-22-2017, 10:17 AM
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Wow, judge and jury. Do you convict democrats based on allegations, too?
Don't belong to either party. You have at least four credible women all telling similar stories. You have corroborating evidence. You have his coworkers saying they knew he was in to high school girls. You have the security guard at the mall saying he got bounced for hassling young girls. You have a former police officer saying he was assigned to high school football games to keep him away from the cheerleaders. This is not a court of law it is an election. But you believe all these people are lying? These must be the fruits of faith that Colossians was talking about.


Seems to me any pretense that Republicans or evangelicals occupied the moral high ground has been shown to be farcical at best, a cruel and vicious deception at worst.
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Last edited by carlosdanger; 11-22-2017 at 10:23 AM..
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  #216  
Old 11-22-2017, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by carlosdanger View Post
Don't belong to either party. You have at least four credible women all telling similar stories. You have corroborating evidence. You have his coworkers saying they knew he was in to high school girls. You have the security guard at the mall saying he got bounced for hassling young girls. You have a former police officer saying he was assigned to high school football games to keep him away from the cheerleaders. This is not a court of law it is an election. But you believe all these people are lying? These must be the fruits of faith that Colossians was talking about.


Seems to me any pretense that Republicans or evangelicals occupied the moral high ground has been shown to be farcical at best, a cruel and vicious deception at worst.
I think you are misinterpreting that we have all fallen and none are without sin. There is no moral high ground to a fallen world, we are all guilty of something.
Your guilt maybe a secret that only you know which doesn't make it any better in our Makers eyes. Your guilt maybe be paraded in public, like Charlie Rose, John Conyers. or Al Franken. Doesn't matter, guilt is guilt, and is it not the Dems who fight for 'womens' right, but in this new sexual impropriety eruption seem to be those that abuse women the most?

Seems to me any pretense that Dems or atheist evangelicals occupied the 'fighting for womens rights' high ground have been shown to be farcical at best, a cruel and vicious deception at worst.

See how this works? No one is without guilt!
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M. Sage's I have a dream speech;

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Originally Posted by M. Sage View Post
I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.

Last edited by colossians323; 11-22-2017 at 5:00 PM..
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  #217  
Old 11-22-2017, 11:39 AM
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If to follow the Bible as written, you need to accept Jesus Christ as your Personal Savior, and try as best you can to follow his teachings, but you cannot earn your way into Heaven by good works alone, the Bible says basically Nobody gets to God but through Jesus Christ, also the good things you do on earth it's best to do them in secret, between you and God, for if you boast about the good works you've done then you already got your reward on earth and you don't get them twice so best you do it out of Love and Commitment to Jesus's teachings and not to do it so people can see...
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  #218  
Old 11-22-2017, 1:00 PM
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Definition of earn: to come to be duly worthy of or entitled or suited to

if there are requirements for salvation (which everyone seems to agree) than a chance for salvation must be earned.
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  #219  
Old 11-22-2017, 1:50 PM
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Repentance and faith are the requirements for salvation. These are both superceded by regeneration which leads to repentance and faith. Therefore no works or earning are even possible for salvation in Christ.
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  #220  
Old 11-22-2017, 1:57 PM
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Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
Repentance and faith are the requirements for salvation. These are both superceded by regeneration which leads to repentance and faith. Therefore no works or earning are even possible for salvation in Christ.
you don't think this is contradictory?

if there are requirements, than you absolutely must earn a chance at salvation through Christ. you may not attain salvation through works alone, however there are minimal requirements to qualify (per your post), and thus you must earn those qualifications. repentance is not given.

Last edited by theLBC; 11-22-2017 at 2:03 PM..
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  #221  
Old 11-22-2017, 2:06 PM
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As one can plainly see, there is no opportunity to be saved by works.

Ephisians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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  #222  
Old 11-22-2017, 2:20 PM
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Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
As one can plainly see, there is no opportunity to be saved by works.



Ephisians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Let me provide a scenario for you.

1. Bob doesn't believe in God. He has no faith, and hates religion. He's heard of Jesus, but thinks it is made up. He does whatever he wants, regardless of how it affects others. He has broken every commandment in the bible. He is sorry for nothing.

2. Roger believes in Jesus after reading the bible. He devotes his life to helping others. He repents his sins and tries his best to follow the teachings of Christ.

Do these two men have an equal chance of being given eternal life?
If not, why not?
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  #223  
Old 11-22-2017, 2:37 PM
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Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Bob heard but didn't believe. Roger heard and believed. I don't understand what chance has to do with it. Can you elaborate for my clarification please.
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Old 11-22-2017, 3:02 PM
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Originally Posted by RAMCLAP View Post
Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Bob heard but didn't believe. Roger heard and believed. I don't understand what chance has to do with it. Can you elaborate for my clarification please.
Which is more likely to receive the gift of salvation, and why?
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  #225  
Old 11-22-2017, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
Let me provide a scenario for you.

1. Bob doesn't believe in God. He has no faith, and hates religion. He's heard of Jesus, but thinks it is made up. He does whatever he wants, regardless of how it affects others. He has broken every commandment in the bible. He is sorry for nothing.

2. Roger believes in Jesus after reading the bible. He devotes his life to helping others. He repents his sins and tries his best to follow the teachings of Christ.

Do these two men have an equal chance of being given eternal life?
If not, why not?
No, they don't have an "equal chance of being given eternal life."

As has been stated, there is no chance in salvation.

According to your scenario, Bob is not going to heaven. He's going to hell. He has rejected God (Romans 1:18-24).

Roger *might* be going to heaven depending on an addition piece information not there - does he think that any part of his "helping others" or "follow the teachings of Christ" are NECESSARY to get him into heaven. If he believes that they are necessary, he's not getting in (Matthew 7:21-23; Ephesian 2:8-9). If he believes that they are not necessary but are a result of salvation (Eph. 2:10) that He does in appreciation of the free gift of salvation (2 Cor. 5:9), then he's a true disciple of Christ and will spend eternity in heaven.
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  #226  
Old 11-22-2017, 3:35 PM
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Well, we've come a long way in this thread.

He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” – John 14:21

People often confused works of obedience with works of merit. Being obedient to the Lord’s commands does not mean we are earning our way in to heaven. We will never do and can never do anything to earn our way. But God has told us that we must obey, and He told us what me must do.

"And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation" - Hebrews 5:9

In Acts 2. when Peter preached his first sermon he told the people that Christ had died for their sins. After Peter finished preaching, the people said, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Peter told them to “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

In Acts 9 and 22, Saul was struck blind. Christ appeared to him. He told Saul, “Get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.” Paul arrives in Damascus where Ananias told Saul what to do. “Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.”

In Acts 16 Paul and Silas were in jail when the jailer asked of them, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And their answer, ““Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” But more than that, he and his household were immediately baptized.

As James 2 states, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone,” there is something that must be done. Even those who truly believe that salvation comes only by faith have to admit that faith is indeed work. It is not a mere mental choice to believe. But the Bible never states that salvation comes by any one thing alone.

John 8:24, Acts 16:31, Hebrews 11:6 all state that we must believe to be saved. But! The Bible is not further silent on salvation.

Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30 all tell us we must also repent.

Romans 10:9 tells us "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." In Matthew 10:32, Jesus tells us the same.

And then, Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:48; Acts 22:16 all tell us the same thing. Whether by the words of Jesus or Peter it is just as important, and these words tell us that it is needed, not only for our sins to be washed away, but for our salvation, that we be baptized.

These are things we must do. If we are told we must believe to be saved, does that mean what Jesus says about confessing His name, or repenting, or being baptized is not important? We cannot discount any part of the word of God that is a command for His church. If we are told to believe in one part of the new convenant, and told to repent in another, then we must do both.

If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” – John 14:15
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  #227  
Old 11-22-2017, 3:51 PM
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No, they don't have an "equal chance of being given eternal life."

As has been stated, there is no chance in salvation.

According to your scenario, Bob is not going to heaven. He's going to hell. He has rejected God (Romans 1:18-24).

Roger *might* be going to heaven depending on an addition piece information not there - does he think that any part of his "helping others" or "follow the teachings of Christ" are NECESSARY to get him into heaven. If he believes that they are necessary, he's not getting in (Matthew 7:21-23; Ephesian 2:8-9). If he believes that they are not necessary but are a result of salvation (Eph. 2:10) that He does in appreciation of the free gift of salvation (2 Cor. 5:9), then he's a true disciple of Christ and will spend eternity in heaven.
Roger believes only what the bible says. Nothing more or less.

John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.

So you admit that Roger has earned consideration, while Bob, in rejecting Christ, has not.

Last edited by theLBC; 11-22-2017 at 3:54 PM..
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Old 11-22-2017, 4:23 PM
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Roger believes only what the bible says. Nothing more or less.

John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.

So you admit that Roger has earned consideration, while Bob, in rejecting Christ, has not.
There is no "earning." You didn't give enough information about Roger to see if he believes what God says is necessary to believe for eternal life. You don't want Matthew 7:21-23 to happen to you. You don't want Christ to look at you like the people in John 2 and conclude in 2:22 that they didn't have the right belief for salvation.
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  #229  
Old 11-22-2017, 4:25 PM
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Let me provide a scenario for you.

1. Bob doesn't believe in God. He has no faith, and hates religion. He's heard of Jesus, but thinks it is made up. He does whatever he wants, regardless of how it affects others. He has broken every commandment in the bible. He is sorry for nothing.

2. Roger believes in Jesus after reading the bible. He devotes his life to helping others. He repents his sins and tries his best to follow the teachings of Christ.

Do these two men have an equal chance of being given eternal life?
If not, why not?
Here is the Scenario Jesus gave. how does it line up with your scenario?

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Matthew 20:1-16 (NASB)
Laborers in the Vineyard

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the [c]third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place; 4 and to those he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ And so they went. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he *said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’ 7 They *said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He *said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard *said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.’ 9 When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. 10 When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered and said to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’ 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last.”
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  #230  
Old 11-22-2017, 4:36 PM
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so OP, if you don't consider the members of the Church of Rome to be Christians, where do Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches stand?
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Old 11-22-2017, 4:46 PM
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Which is more likely to receive the gift of salvation, and why?
Ah. I see. Thanks for clarifying. I appreciate you taking the time. First, neither is more likely. Neither are worthy. Neither are owed. Both are deserving of Hell. Not salvation. Again, as Ephesians says, Salvation is of God not of any mans works. At salvation God imputes Christ's righteousness to the believer such that the believer desires to do God's good works.
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