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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 02-12-2018, 12:37 PM
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Default DOJ Now Approving Featureless Grips and Stocks

Got your attention didn't I. Bear with me a minute.

I am sick of all the threads where we all debate what grip or stock is or isn't compliant and each thread ends with someone correctly pointing out that the DOJ never actually approves any of them in writing. Here is a new concept:

Calgunners are VolReging self-built featureless AR-pattern rifles and every day the DOJ is approving them and sending us letters. I now claim that with each approval the CA DOJ has formally ruled that whatever featureless items exist on that rifle are compliant.

Think about it. If these firearms were not compliant, then they must be unregistered assault weapons and the CA DOJ would immediately be citing us for possession of such. Remember, these are detachable mag, centerfire semi-autos with no bullet button and if the pistol grip, flash hider or stock were NOT compliant, then we would be in possession of an AW just like poor Rueben Foster of the 49ers. They would take action.

So could a real attorney here tell me why we cannot take the DOJ's issuance of a registration letter for a self-built featureless rifle with a Resurgent Arms grip (for example) as a de facto approval of the device being compliant? We are sending them detailed photos and if these were not compliant wouldn't they enforce the law? There is no debate that an unregistered, featured AR with no BB is illegal at present.

My suggestion is that we all share the info we have received and I bet we can create a paper trail of DOJ "approvals" for most of the devices we are wondering about.

What am I missing (other than the fact that common logic does not work in CA)?

Last edited by familyfarm; 02-13-2018 at 6:46 AM..
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:40 PM
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Someone correct me but, I believe those registering with the DOJ are those that wish to not go featureless in order to retain their bullet button and evil features.

I have a friend that registered his rifle as an AW, but because he did not want to go featureless, and has owned the rifle prior to the stupid regulations.
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my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:43 PM
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DOJ is not allowing featureless registrations.
So, none of these featureless items are being approved.
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:44 PM
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DOJ is not allowing featureless registrations.
So, none of these featureless items are being approved.
That's what I thought.

Thanks!

It just made no sense that someone would voluntarily register their rifle if it has no evil features IE a pointless registration.
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my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post
That's what I thought.

Thanks!

It just made no sense that someone would voluntarily register their rifle if it has no evil features IE a pointless registration.
Second, unless I'm missing something?
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:50 PM
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Show us a link to registering a featureless rifle. And a copy of a actual letter approving featureless registration.

Not sure what you have been reading.
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by familyfarm View Post
Got your attention didn't I. Bear with me a minute.

I am sick of all the threads where we all debate what grip or stock is or isn't compliant and each thread ends with someone correctly pointing out that the DOJ never actually approves any of them in writing. Here is a new concept:

Every day calgunners are VolReging featurless AR-pattern rifles and every day the DOJ is approving them and sending us letters. I now claim that with each approval the CA DOJ has formally ruled that whatever featureless items exist on that rifle are compliant.

Think about it. If these rifles were not compliant, then they must be unregistered assault weapons and the CA DOJ would immediately be citing us for possession of such. Remember, these are detachable mag, centerfire semi-autos with no bullet button and if the pistol grip, flash hider or stock were NOT compliant, then we would be in possession of an AW just like poor Rueben Foster of the 49ers. They would take action.

So could a real attorney here tell me why we cannot take the DOJ's issuance of a registration letter for a featureless rifle with a Resurgent Arms grip (for example) as a de facto approval of the device being compliant? We are sending them detailed photos and if these were not compliant wouldn't they enforce the law? There is no debate that an unregistered, featured AR with no BB is illegal at present.

My suggestion is that we all share the info we have received and I bet we can create a paper trail of DOJ "approvals" for most of the devices we are wondering about.

What am I missing (other than the fact that common logic does not work in CA)?
When did we start providing detailed pics when we volreg a rifle???

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...rms/volreg.pdf
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:58 PM
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You guys are missing it. I have Volreg'ed 2 featureless rifles with monsterman or other grips. I am not talking about AW registration. I am talking about many of us Volreging featureless 80% rifles so we can comply with the new ghost gun regs. If you have not been reading about this then look here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1421339


All of us who built 80% rifles and engraved them with serials now need to register them to keep the serial. There are many Calgunners who have done this. Now please re-read the idea with that context. So when I registered with my monsterman and they approved it (yes I do have my letters) I am claiming they de facto approved the Monsterman grip as otherwise I would be registering an AW with no bullet button. See the opportunity?

Last edited by familyfarm; 02-12-2018 at 1:04 PM..
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Old 02-12-2018, 1:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 1bulletBarney View Post
When did we start providing detailed pics when we volreg a rifle???

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...rms/volreg.pdf
When you Volreg through CFARS you have to submit pictures of all the parts and the rifle and the engraving. So they saw my fin grips or monsterman, etc and they have seen and approved Thordsens too.

Not sure if you can still Volreg 80%s on paper but maybe. Anyone succeed with that yet? I understood they wanted pics of the engraving on 80% items. I'd love to use paper next time.

Plenty of us have now gone through the CFARS VolReg process with AR Pistols and featureless rifles and I am sure they have accepted a wide range of compliance options.

Last edited by familyfarm; 02-12-2018 at 1:20 PM..
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Old 02-12-2018, 1:04 PM
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You did not state 80% in your first.post. Now your talking something different.
What you did was register your 80% as a firearm.
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Last edited by baih777; 02-12-2018 at 1:09 PM..
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  #11  
Old 02-12-2018, 1:10 PM
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Originally Posted by baih777 View Post
You did not state 80% in your first.post. Now your talking something different.
What you did was register your 80% as a firearm.
Since it was featureless, you didn't have to register it.
Sadly I did have to register based on the new "ghost gun regs" since it was a self-serialized firearm and is illegal to possess after the new AB-857 regs kick in. See the thread on the legal section for details.

But if you prefer to think I just registered for no reason that is fine too for my idea. Lots of others have done the same thing to get their 80% firearms into the "centralized registry" and avoid requesting serial numbers from the DOJ and re-engraving. By accepting these newly registered 80% arms I believe that the DOJ is approving the devices.
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Old 02-12-2018, 1:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by familyfarm View Post
When you Volreg through CFARS you have to submit pictures of all the parts and the rifle and the engraving. So they saw my fin grips or monsterman, etc and they have sen and approved Thordsens too.

Not sure if you van still Volreg on paper but maybe. PLenty of us have now gone through the CFARS VolReg proceed and I am sure they have accepted a wide range of compliance options.
I have not looked at the CFARS volreg. I will use the paper 4542a volreg form when I volreg my engraved 80% featureless homebuild. No pics required using the 4542a paper form. The DOJ has enough pics of my BBAW's in their matrix, they don't need anymore pics...
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Old 02-12-2018, 1:29 PM
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Maybe confusing volreg with aw registration.
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Old 02-12-2018, 1:35 PM
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There are many solutions to this though. All start with the word interstate and end with the word east.
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Old 02-12-2018, 1:42 PM
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I see what your saying now.
but I don't think it would help anybody if they are out somewhere shooting and a LEO stops to see the rifle. referring to calguns for LEO is not in their rule book.

the biggest problem is that DOJ should have made a compliant illustration for LEO's to refer to in the field.
a LEO trying to determine the wording is what gets people in trouble.

the 80% engraving is going to give the LEO's fits when they come across one.
I would keep a copy of your paperwork in your gearbag.

I keep a copy of my RAW from the first registration period in my gear bag.
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Old 02-12-2018, 1:59 PM
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Originally Posted by familyfarm View Post

Think about it. If these rifles were not compliant, then they must be unregistered assault weapons and the CA DOJ would immediately be citing us for possession of such. Remember, these are detachable mag, centerfire semi-autos with no bullet button and if the pistol grip, flash hider or stock were NOT compliant, then we would be in possession of an AW just like poor Rueben Foster of the 49ers. They would take action.
Lack of enforcement does not mean approval, desuetude notwithstanding.
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Old 02-12-2018, 2:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by familyfarm View Post
You guys are missing it. I have Volreg'ed 2 featureless rifles with monsterman or other grips. I am not talking about AW registration. I am talking about many of us Volreging featureless 80% rifles so we can comply with the new ghost gun regs. If you have not been reading about this then look here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1421339


All of us who built 80% rifles and engraved them with serials now need to register them to keep the serial. There are many Calgunners who have done this. Now please re-read the idea with that context. So when I registered with my monsterman and they approved it (yes I do have my letters) I am claiming they de facto approved the Monsterman grip as otherwise I would be registering an AW with no bullet button. See the opportunity?
Ah, for 80s
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Old 02-12-2018, 8:58 PM
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OP, fix the title of your thread.

I came back tonight to see what you were actually talking about only to see that your initial post was completely different than what you posted afterward.
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my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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Old 02-12-2018, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by familyfarm View Post
When you Volreg through CFARS you have to submit pictures of all the parts and the rifle and the engraving. So they saw my fin grips or monsterman, etc and they have seen and approved Thordsens too.

Not sure if you can still Volreg 80%s on paper but maybe. Anyone succeed with that yet? I understood they wanted pics of the engraving on 80% items. I'd love to use paper next time.

Plenty of us have now gone through the CFARS VolReg process with AR Pistols and featureless rifles and I am sure they have accepted a wide range of compliance options.
You might be still confusing people.
You're talking about a FINISHED 80% lower...meaning a 100% lower that used to be an 80% lower.
You cannot volreg an 80% lower, but you can volreg a 100% (i.e. milled and drilled) lower that was formerly an 80% lower, which has an engraved serial number.
I think it is worthwhile to make the distinction.
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Old 02-13-2018, 6:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post
OP, fix the title of your thread.
Had no intent to confuse people, just thought it would get some views and was trying to have some fun with a heavy topic, since I was proposing a long shot idea.

Given your request, I did go back to edit but it does not seem I can edit the title. So let me try this without the drama about how I came to be submitting photos for VolReg of my rifles and getting approvals.

A simpler way to explain the concept is that if I were the maker of a compliance device, I might ask an initial set of folks to volreg using the CFARS system and including pictures. If all the firearms from multiple people with my compliance device were accepted with the letter, I might conclude that it constitutes acceptance of the device. Its just an idea.

Lack of enforcement does not constitute approval is true, but they have reacted by showing up on-site when sent pics of a featured rifle without a bullet button as related on Calguns recently. But that was with the BBAW process and not the VolReg process.
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Old 02-13-2018, 7:06 AM
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Could the reverse be used to claim what CA DOJ exhibits featureless complaint parts. As in you try to register a featureless rifle with grip fin, muzzle break and fixed magpul stock, it gets kicked back and told they do not register featureless rifles and can use that to state you are complaint?
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Old 02-13-2018, 7:48 AM
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You might be able to use this as a defense if the state accepted the vol reg after July 1 but prior to that they could be accepting them while expecting you will be requesting the state serial number and then registering as an assault weapon.

Another way to figure out what is compliant (presently) could be by seeing what FFLs are selling ARs equipped with, fin grip, thordsen stock, etc, since they get visited by DOJ for audits and would delt with if they were selling non compliant weapons.

Just my guess, but who knows.
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Old 02-13-2018, 8:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by familyfarm View Post
You guys are missing it. I have Volreg'ed 2 featureless rifles with monsterman or other grips. I am not talking about AW registration. I am talking about many of us Volreging featureless 80% rifles so we can comply with the new ghost gun regs. If you have not been reading about this then look here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1421339


All of us who built 80% rifles and engraved them with serials now need to register them to keep the serial. There are many Calgunners who have done this. Now please re-read the idea with that context. So when I registered with my monsterman and they approved it (yes I do have my letters) I am claiming they de facto approved the Monsterman grip as otherwise I would be registering an AW with no bullet button. See the opportunity?
We didn't "miss" your point. You neglected to mention this 80% aspect in your original post.

But thanks for the info.
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Old 02-13-2018, 9:47 AM
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I do my best to work with facts. This is what I know to be facts...

CCR, Title II, Division 7 of the new BBAW regs...

Section 5471, subsection (o) "featureless" means a semiautomatic firearm (rifle, pistol, or shotgun) lacking the characteristics associated with the weapon, as listed in Penal Code 30515.

The only "compliant" definition in regards to a device that I seen in the regs...

Section 5471, subsection (mm) "Stock, fixed" means a stock that does not move, fold, or telescope.

Plenty of definitions for features but I digress...

If the devices one chooses to install on their rifles does not fall under the definition of "Features" as defined in the PC, that's as good as it will get...

I volreg'd a C&R Yugo M59/66 using 4542a mail in form a couple of years ago. Guys were volunteering to send pics of the bare threads to prove the destructive device (grenade launcher spigot) was removed from the rifle. I sent no pics. I received a confirmation letter in 5 weeks. All the letter did was confirmed The DOJ cashed my check and entered my rifle into their database, that's bad enough...

As far as I know, the 4542a volreg form is still GTG. I will fill out that form, include a $19 check and snail mail to DOJ for the engraved (per ATF specs), 100% complete, compliant rifle I built. The DOJ has enough pics of my BBAW's, no more pics for the DOJ matrix...

It's easy to see why gun people in Free America think we are nuts...
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:49 AM
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Lack of enforcement does not mean approval, ...
If your submitted pictures show something that makes your gun an AW, it will still be an AW even if your registration is accepted.
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Old 02-13-2018, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by russ69 View Post
If your submitted pictures show something that makes your gun an AW, it will still be an AW even if your registration is accepted.
You're saying a milled and drilled formerly-80% lower, with a pistol grip installed, will be considered an AW by CA DOJ if someone tries to volreg it under their own custom serial number that is engraved on it, prior to July 1, 2018?
How confident are you of that?
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Old 02-23-2018, 1:42 PM
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well folks, going back the original thread, my former bullet button rifles are not self-built, but whatever components I added to the rifles to the make them featureless are the same ones I see currently on legally sold and DOJ DROS-ed rifles at places like Turner's. I haven't seen the DOJ coming after Turner's or anyone else selling featureless rifles ...at least yet...but the moment I do, that is when I will start to worry about the legality and definition of specific featureless components (grip wraps, muzzle brakes, fixed stock locking devices) that I have added to my own guns.
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