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  #41  
Old 02-12-2018, 5:56 PM
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Default Listen to this

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Originally Posted by smle-man View Post
Remington has gone through financial hard times more than once. In fact all of the old line gun makers have. Only Ruger seems immune.
A series of bad decisions. Management should be sacked.
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  #42  
Old 02-12-2018, 6:15 PM
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The trigger recall didn't help things.
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  #43  
Old 02-12-2018, 6:28 PM
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Saw this thread earlier today and pretty much figured I wouldn't see my bucket of bullets rebate that I sent in November. Came home from work and there it was!

Cashing it first thing tomorrow.
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  #44  
Old 02-12-2018, 6:57 PM
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by elk hunter View Post
You Californians might not want to do your "Happy Dance" and gloating over the demise of Remington. You might be about to lose your major source of all copper slugs and ammo, think it cant happen? take a deep breath and hold it.
https://www.remington.com/news/2010/...barnes-bullets

Have a nice day.
What a great post you a hat
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  #45  
Old 02-12-2018, 6:59 PM
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Dupe.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ight=remington
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  #46  
Old 02-12-2018, 7:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
...might it be part of a larger theme of consolidating, then dismantling a large segment of the American Firearms Industry?
It's possible but extremely improbable. The more likely cause is inept management. I've been on both sides of mergers as an employee and a manager and in my opinion, Remington's acquisition spree under Cerebrus was worse than stupid ill advised.
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  #47  
Old 02-12-2018, 8:15 PM
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Remington is not dead. They will stay in business.
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  #48  
Old 02-12-2018, 8:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
Because we own firearms only when a president allows us too. These people are by far the dumbest and most dangerous I’ve ever encountered. Would they be so stupid to say DT “allows” them to print criticisms of the administration? Or is asking the question already answering it.

Weird how the NRA is supposedly the “gun lobby”, in the pockets of the industry and the gunmakers. But now they’re hurting because an entirely predictable and obvious outcome of DT’s election. And the NRA enthusiastically supported DT. So which is?

And exactly how is access unfettered? I guess by being not completely banned?
He sort of does. Obama or Hillary would've gone after them for lese majeste.
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  #49  
Old 02-12-2018, 8:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elk hunter View Post
You Californians might not want to do your "Happy Dance" and gloating over the demise of Remington. You might be about to lose your major source of all copper slugs and ammo, think it cant happen? take a deep breath and hold it.
https://www.remington.com/news/2010/...barnes-bullets

Have a nice day.
At the same time, looking at their boxes of cased ammunition, it would appear they don't actually manufacture the majority of the ammo they distribute under their brand name. In some cases, pun intended, it's not even from within the US so it could be any number of foreign manufacturers.

And being that ammo is likely the most profitable product in the portion of their brands (save for any of their .22LR) there would be no worry of that portion being dissolved.

The actual manufacturers would either continue operating as they always have, merely ramping up their other trademark/licensing brand contracts and deals, or those portions would be bought by savvy creditors knowing that it's the most profitable and not influenced by the firearms-component reputation dip.

.
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  #50  
Old 02-12-2018, 9:06 PM
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I do not claim to know enough of the details of Remington’s business to say BK is an appropriate or is not an inappropriate bailout, but I think we should consider this in our future purchases. Ford hung tough and did not take a bailout and very few consider that when purchasing vehicles. The message we as consumers regularly send is price over ethics. Ford is given no credit these days for its bold decision to not declare bk when it could have. The proof is the streets of CA overwhelmingly filled with other makes of vehicles.


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  #51  
Old 02-12-2018, 9:43 PM
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Just like the airlines when they have good times they add a bunch of capacity. When things go the other way they go BK. They never learn.
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  #52  
Old 02-12-2018, 9:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pl411 View Post
I do not claim to know enough of the details of Remington’s business to say BK is an appropriate or is not an inappropriate bailout, but I think we should consider this in our future purchases. Ford hung tough and did not take a bailout and very few consider that when purchasing vehicles. The message we as consumers regularly send is price over ethics. Ford is given no credit these days for its bold decision to not declare bk when it could have. The proof is the streets of CA overwhelmingly filled with other makes of vehicles.


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I understand your point but let’s not forget Ford took $5.9 billion in TALF funds from the government. It was a bail out, just not like the $16 billion dollar one to GM and $4 billion to Chrysler.
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  #53  
Old 02-12-2018, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TMB 1 View Post
I think the internet is a big influence, there are a few people that run them down every chance they get over and over and over again on every forum in every Remington/Marlin thread on the net.
Exactly.
People believe stuff they read that is blindly regurgitated by so many people who don't even know the truth that the perception is CHANGED.

Every company makes a turd from time to time, be it an individual gun of a goo design, or simply a bad design.
Just because ONE is bad, that does not automatically mean that all the others are bad as well...
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  #54  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:11 PM
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to me, remington didn't produce anything i wanted that i couldn't buy from someone else at either a cheaper rate or at better perceived quality.

the only thing they make i have even a slight interest for was the rem700 bolt gun and the 870 pump. but i bought the 700 BNIB used with an aftermarket chassis system and i bought a winchester pump instead

and the thing is i'm sure i'm not the only one that thought that way.
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Because -ohmigosh- they can add their opinions, too?
Proof we can all comment on whatever we want if it's at all related to the topic at hand!
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  #55  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:34 PM
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I have liked remington and have 2 700 and several 870 different shotguns. Haven't had any issues. I know many people in the last few years have had but I think remington has made some bad business decisions and it cost them alot.
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  #56  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:47 PM
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Long term debt, trade receivables and inventory all had big spikes. Looks like mismanagement and undesirable products/over production. Surprised about 1/2 of their revenue is from ammo.

Hopefully they can restructure their debt and get their product line straightened out.

It doesn't help that communists block them from selling handguns in California.
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  #57  
Old 02-13-2018, 1:57 AM
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Update placed in OP, including a link to Remington's official statement.

Thanks, folks.
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  #58  
Old 02-13-2018, 6:02 AM
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True and many good companies have had to declare bk for various reasons, but there is a difference between a government TALF loan and declaring bk, especially for the consumers of the pre-bk products. But perhaps I am just bitter at Remington as my 45-70 Remlin 1895 SBL has been sitting with them for months in for the second time for defect repairs. This time because it would jam on every shot. A problem that developed as I tried to chamber a round for a potential follow up shot on a hog. Guess I am lucky it was not a grizzly. I bought a JM 1895 on the forum last week as I have lost faith in my Remlin.


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  #59  
Old 02-13-2018, 7:24 AM
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Default Remington files for Bankrupcy

I predicted this on another forum and guys were concerned about parts. I am a Remington Master Gun Shop so I know the company and advised all that they would stay in business and there would be no disruption in parts. Todays news is that Remington is filing for Chapter 11. So I think some dealers will play on this and try to start a run on parts or raise prices on the most popular parts like 870,1100 and 700 model parts.

Don't fall for it guys as there are plenty of parts and there will be not a disruption in the parts supply or increases in price. In fact, I predict some parts prices will be dropping as they became inflated during the wonderful years of the world greatest firearm salesman Barrack O'Bama.

Remington rebates last year were generous and look for that to continue. So having some patience now can get you some grate deals this years if you wait. As for parts, don't fall for any hype and start any kind of run. That is what some dealers will want and they will even fuel it.
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  #60  
Old 02-13-2018, 7:45 AM
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Trump has only been in office for a year and sales were at record levels before that so this is a pure management issue.
I've been looking for 22lr YellowJacket ammo for years now and they have been so busy making other ammo around the clock they haven't made any.
When your running 24-7 and you can't keep product on the shelf and your company is 200+ years old it's a management issue.
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  #61  
Old 02-13-2018, 8:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
they have been so busy making other ammo around the clock they haven't made any.
When your running 24-7 and you can't keep product on the shelf and your company is 200+ years old it's a management issue.
The tip of the iceberg. I wonder if the genius from Cerebrus who runs Remington uses or knows anything at all about the products they sell? Does he talk to customers (not dealers, but the people who shoot, hunt and fish with the many products Remington sells)?

For all the carping about "cookie man" Lou Gerstner, the fact that he was a user of IBM technology while at Nabisco had to be a big factor in his ability to right the company when he was brought in to run it.
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  #62  
Old 02-13-2018, 8:53 AM
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I've only ever owned one Remington firearm; 870 Magnum pump shotgun.

IIRC, I bought it at Kmart in the early 80's.

It was a workhorse for bird hunting for many years, very well made, and excellent value for the $ IMO.
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  #63  
Old 02-13-2018, 10:32 AM
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I agree, Remington isn’t going anywhere.
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  #64  
Old 02-13-2018, 10:47 AM
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Chapter 11 - reorganization. Basically the creditors, primarily Cerberus, will take control of the company in a negotiated arrangement
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  #65  
Old 02-13-2018, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottB View Post
Chapter 11 - reorganization. Basically the creditors, primarily Cerberus, will take control of the company in a negotiated arrangement
Spot on. Chapter 7 means "gone, shut the doors". Chapter 11 means "restructuring debt" (kinda/sorta).
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  #66  
Old 02-13-2018, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottB View Post
Chapter 11 - reorganization. Basically the creditors, primarily Cerberus, will take control of the company in a negotiated arrangement
In this case Cerberus is getting the boot and their job will be handled by some other financers.

Let's hope Cerberus stays out of the firearms business.
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  #67  
Old 02-13-2018, 12:44 PM
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Wish they still made the pump .223 that takes AR magazines. I hesitated too long and missed the boat.
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  #68  
Old 02-13-2018, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Let's hope Cerberus stays out of the firearms business.
Long, long ago and far, far away, I once worked for a company that was acquired by Cerberus. Within two years after the acquisition, we were out of business. I like Remington, but Cerberus can go screw themselves.
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  #69  
Old 02-13-2018, 1:11 PM
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I am not an investor, nor do I relish the demise of any firearms company, but for the life of me, I cannot understand why would a company open itself to being raped by a serial rapist (Cerberus)???

Seems the notoriety of Cerberus is known world wide, so why still allow yourself be under its jaws in the first place? A thug is a thug is a thug. A leopard does not change its spots.
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Old 02-13-2018, 1:23 PM
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This article explains the deal, and yes, Cerberus is out.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-r...-idUSKBN1FW23Q
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  #71  
Old 02-13-2018, 1:24 PM
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Not specific to any particular type of gun, so moved to General Gun discussions.

Two other threads merged into one.
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  #72  
Old 02-13-2018, 3:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HUTCH 7.62 View Post
Hard to beat the 700 action.
The 700 is a Barbie Doll action that can be fine tuned like crazy. And there's a lot of aftermarket for that legendary rifle - from stocks to bbls.
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  #73  
Old 02-13-2018, 4:20 PM
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Smith & Wesson was facing the same until it changed owners. The same will arise out of the Chapter 11, and others take control of the helm.

I don't think Remington will go away entirely, but it will need to re-invent it's management approach no different than SWHC had, and then became a success.

.
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  #74  
Old 02-13-2018, 4:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Browning View Post
Oh, no. Believe me. There is a select group of folks who are blindly loyal and will tell you that Remington still makes the best rifles on the planet.
Nobody here is blindly loyal. You had a rant thread on the centerfire forum over stuff that most didn't agree with you on.
You are blindly disgruntled.
On the centerfire thread I asked all the Remington bashers to bring any of those modern guns that have all the latest bells and whistles some here think are important to the range and outshoot one of my Remington 700's.
Guess what no takers. Ask yourself why?
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  #75  
Old 02-13-2018, 4:43 PM
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Originally Posted by liberty47 View Post
What a great post you a hat
Thank you.................chump
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  #76  
Old 02-13-2018, 4:57 PM
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Putting their past behind them. Remington in the past few years consolidated production into a plant in Huntsville. And more recently introduced their in house designed mag fed 870. The brand will continue.
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  #77  
Old 02-13-2018, 5:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
There have been a couple of relatively recent threads talking about Remington and its financial problems...

Remington in Financial Trouble

Remington on the Bubble

Here's an article posted a few hours ago today...

Remington Arms Sets Up For Bankruptcy Filing

It doesn't say much beyond the $550 million loan matures next year.

I mean, first they consolidate H&R/NEF under Marlin, then Remington buys Marlin... Then complaints about quality control, trigger recalls, etc. Then H&R/NEF stop making their bread and butter single shots. Refusals to invest more money after Sandy Hook involved Bushmaster.

With record sales under Obama, it's difficult to believe that the firearm manufacturers didn't make money. Yet, we are seeing this creative destruction of a series of long-time, American manufacturers tied to huge amounts of debt.

My question is whether all this is truly mismanagement by investors who do not know/understand the firearms industry or might it be part of a larger theme of consolidating, then dismantling a large segment of the American Firearms Industry?

Or... Is this a case where a bankruptcy which allows them to restructure their $950 million debt load could prove to be a good thing?


Update 2/13...

I originally posted this below last night, where it ended up in three pieces due to lack of time. As a result, it was kinda getting lost in the shuffle, so I tack it on here.

An updated article by the AP states, in part...

Remington, the gun maker beset by falling sales and lawsuits tied to the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre, has reached a financing deal that would allow it to continue operating as it seeks Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection... the agreement with lenders will reduce its debt by about $700 million and add about $145 million in new capital... While Remington is not a publicly traded company, shares in rival Sturm, Ruger & Co. slid almost 3 percent Monday. It's shares have fallen almost 14 percent this year... Remington Outdoor Co., the nation's oldest gun maker, will attempt to file a prepackaged reorganization plan with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court of Delaware under Chapter 11 of the bankruptcy code.

Bear in mind that Chapter 11 is typically used to 'reorganize' rather than 'go out of business.'

According to this CBS article...

...intends to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection after reaching an accord with lenders that grants them ownership of the 200-year-old company... A preset reorganization will be filed with the federal bankruptcy court in Delaware that will allow Remington to continue operating while it works out a strategy to pay back creditors and get the business back on its feet... Holders of Remington's $550 million term loan will get an 82.5 percent equity stake in the gunmaker, and third-lien note holders will get 17.5 percent of Remington and four-year warrants for a 15 percent stake, the gunmaker's statement said. Creditors will also grant a $100 million debtor-in-possession loan to keep Remington running through bankruptcy...

You will note that, according to this Fortune piece...

Cerberus will no longer own the 200-year-old Remington, while creditors will get equity in the company in exchange for the debt being written down.

Remington's official statement can be found... Here
Nostalgia aside, there's no dearth of affordable, quality firearms. I'm not concerned about the state of the American firearms industry.
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  #78  
Old 02-13-2018, 7:05 PM
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The workers need to gain control of their company. No public stock. No T.Boone Pickens Corporate Raiders. Other alternative, a Japanese or Korean buyout. You may squeal but they would run the company correctly and fix the quality control ( if indeed there even is one) first thing. Fix the immediate profit over long term financial health mentality that poisons so many American companys. They do this by getting buy in from their employees.
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  #79  
Old 02-13-2018, 9:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Nobody here is blindly loyal. You had a rant thread on the centerfire forum over stuff that most didn't agree with you on.
You are blindly disgruntled.
On the centerfire thread I asked all the Remington bashers to bring any of those modern guns that have all the latest bells and whistles some here think are important to the range and outshoot one of my Remington 700's.
Guess what no takers. Ask yourself why?
My experience:

1. Internet fanbase says "REMINGTON IS AWESOME!"
2. I spend my own money based on internet saying they are good to go.
3. Remington sends crap product.
4. Remington takes months to refit a stock. Sends back rifle. Rifle still unsafe to shoot.
5. Remington tries again. Fails.
6. Six months after purchase, rifle is finally usable.
7. Document just the facts on the internet.
8. Internet complains, says "REMINGTON IS AWESOME!"
9. Remington goes bankrupt
10. Internet complains, says "REMINGTON IS AWESOME!" and blames bad internet people who describe personal experience.

Did you ever stop to ask yourself why, if nobody agrees with me that Remington now sucks, why they're going under? I wish I could say that it is all my work to bring them down, but alas, I don't think I deserve any credit.

My first gun was a Remington and they made some awesome products up until about 2000. I wouldn't recommend a new Remington to anybody based on my own personal experience using my own money and with no interest or care for what happens to Remington.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KWalkerM View Post
eh why bring logic into this, that makes too much sense... besides when you have bested a fool, you have accomplished nothing and he is a fool.
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Old 02-14-2018, 9:56 AM
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NIB NIB is offline
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Cerberus is a cancer. Back when we first heard of them we had people warning us about how they destroy businesses in the name of profits.

We even had a former Remington employee in a gun message board give us the dirt on what was happening behind the scenes at Remington. This person told us how they had huge piles of outsourced overseas parts just rusting away because they were so out of spec they couldn't be used.

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