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  #41  
Old 04-21-2017, 11:30 AM
Rogue187 Rogue187 is offline
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ATF is mostly looking at the officers who buy large numbers of off roster guns and then resells them..almost immediately..
DROS will show the dates..

Some departments won't issue the waiver letters and some hand them out like candy..

ATF is looking for the unlicensed gun dealer/police/sheriff that is making a tidy sum in the reselling of off roster guns..

The sales still go through DROS so the reports you hear of guns showing up at crime scenes is because of guns being brought in and someone who passed the DROS giving them away for cash..
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  #42  
Old 04-21-2017, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue187 View Post
ATF is mostly looking at the officers who buy large numbers of off roster guns and then resells them..almost immediately..
DROS will show the dates..

Some departments won't issue the waiver letters and some hand them out like candy..

ATF is looking for the unlicensed gun dealer/police/sheriff that is making a tidy sum in the reselling of off roster guns..

The sales still go through DROS so the reports you hear of guns showing up at crime scenes is because of guns being brought in and someone who passed the DROS giving them away for cash..
That shouldn't be faulted on the seller via CA DOJ directed transfer via FFL to individuals that checked out.
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  #43  
Old 04-22-2017, 7:16 PM
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Easy answer for this supposed "problem" is for LEO's to not sell off roster handguns in Cali. I have no problem with that, as I do not want to try to usurp Cali law and flood the market with so-called "unsafe" handguns, outside of LEO hands. FYI, I've never sold a firearm for profit, or otherwise. LEO's should not be profiting from these exempted purchases, neither should those who obtained them via surreptitious methods (SSE) and/or relative "gifting". Follow the law folks, no matter how much you disagree with it.

Last edited by roostersgt; 04-22-2017 at 9:18 PM..
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  #44  
Old 04-26-2017, 11:12 PM
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Apparently in September of 2016, courtesy of AB 2165 (Bonta)... PC 32000 was changed. Peace Officers in quite a few agencies are no longer allowed to sell off roster handguns which were purchased with their LE creditials to non-peace officers. See below.

32000.
(a) A person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends an unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.

(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:

(1) The manufacture in this state, or importation into this state, of a prototype handgun when the manufacture or importation is for the sole purpose of allowing an independent laboratory certified by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 32010 to conduct an independent test to determine whether that handgun is prohibited by Sections 31900 to 32110, inclusive, and, if not, allowing the department to add the firearm to the roster of handguns that may be sold in this state pursuant to Section 32015.

(2) The importation or lending of a handgun by employees or authorized agents of entities determining whether the weapon is prohibited by this section.

(3) Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

(4) The sale or purchase of a handgun, if the handgun is sold to, or purchased by, the Department of Justice, a police department, a sheriff’s official, a marshal’s office, the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, the Department of the California Highway Patrol, any district attorney’s office, any federal law enforcement agency, or the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the discharge of their official duties. This section does not prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies of a handgun.

(5) The sale, purchase, or delivery of a handgun, if the sale, purchase, or delivery of the handgun is made pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 10334 of the Public Contract Code.

(6) Subject to the limitations set forth in subdivision (c), the sale or purchase of a handgun, if the handgun is sold to, or purchased by, any of the following entities or sworn members of these entities who have satisfactorily completed the firearms portion of a training course prescribed by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training pursuant to Section 832:

(A) The Department of Parks and Recreation.

(B) The Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control.

(C) The Division of Investigation of the Department of Consumer Affairs.

(D) The Department of Motor Vehicles.

(E) The Fraud Division of the Department of Insurance.

(F) The State Department of State Hospitals.

(G) The Department of Fish and Wildlife.

(H) The State Department of Developmental Services.

(I) The Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.

(J) A county probation department.

(K) The Los Angeles World Airports, as defined in Section 830.15.

(L) A K–12 public school district for use by a school police officer, as described in Section 830.32.

(M) A municipal water district for use by a park ranger, as described in Section 830.34.

(N) A county for use by a welfare fraud investigator or inspector, as described in Section 830.35.

(O) A county for use by the coroner or the deputy coroner, as described in Section 830.35.

(P) The Supreme Court and the courts of appeal for use by marshals of the Supreme Court and bailiffs of the courts of appeal, and coordinators of security for the judicial branch, as described in Section 830.36.

(Q) A fire department or fire protection agency of a county, city, city and county, district, or the state for use by either of the following:

(i) A member of an arson-investigating unit, regularly paid and employed in that capacity pursuant to Section 830.37.

(ii) A member other than a member of an arson-investigating unit, regularly paid and employed in that capacity pursuant to Section 830.37.

(R) The University of California Police Department, or the California State University Police Departments, as described in Section 830.2.

(S) A California Community College police department, as described in Section 830.32.

(c) (1) Notwithstanding Section 26825, a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, shall not process the sale or transfer of an unsafe handgun between a person who has obtained an unsafe handgun pursuant to an exemption specified in paragraph (6) of subdivision (b) and a person who is not exempt from the requirements of this section.

Last edited by FCinCA; 04-26-2017 at 11:25 PM..
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  #45  
Old 04-30-2017, 3:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCinCA View Post
Apparently in September of 2016, courtesy of AB 2165 (Bonta)... PC 32000 was changed. Peace Officers in quite a few agencies are no longer allowed to sell off roster handguns which were purchased with their LE creditials to non-peace officers. See below.

32000.
(a) A person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends an unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.

(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:

(1) The manufacture in this state, or importation into this state, of a prototype handgun when the manufacture or importation is for the sole purpose of allowing an independent laboratory certified by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 32010 to conduct an independent test to determine whether that handgun is prohibited by Sections 31900 to 32110, inclusive, and, if not, allowing the department to add the firearm to the roster of handguns that may be sold in this state pursuant to Section 32015.

(2) The importation or lending of a handgun by employees or authorized agents of entities determining whether the weapon is prohibited by this section.

(3) Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

(4) The sale or purchase of a handgun, if the handgun is sold to, or purchased by, the Department of Justice, a police department, a sheriff’s official, a marshal’s office, the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, the Department of the California Highway Patrol, any district attorney’s office, any federal law enforcement agency, or the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the discharge of their official duties. This section does not prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these agencies of a handgun.

(5) The sale, purchase, or delivery of a handgun, if the sale, purchase, or delivery of the handgun is made pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 10334 of the Public Contract Code.

(6) Subject to the limitations set forth in subdivision (c), the sale or purchase of a handgun, if the handgun is sold to, or purchased by, any of the following entities or sworn members of these entities who have satisfactorily completed the firearms portion of a training course prescribed by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training pursuant to Section 832:

(A) The Department of Parks and Recreation.

(B) The Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control.

(C) The Division of Investigation of the Department of Consumer Affairs.

(D) The Department of Motor Vehicles.

(E) The Fraud Division of the Department of Insurance.

(F) The State Department of State Hospitals.

(G) The Department of Fish and Wildlife.

(H) The State Department of Developmental Services.

(I) The Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.

(J) A county probation department.

(K) The Los Angeles World Airports, as defined in Section 830.15.

(L) A K–12 public school district for use by a school police officer, as described in Section 830.32.

(M) A municipal water district for use by a park ranger, as described in Section 830.34.

(N) A county for use by a welfare fraud investigator or inspector, as described in Section 830.35.

(O) A county for use by the coroner or the deputy coroner, as described in Section 830.35.

(P) The Supreme Court and the courts of appeal for use by marshals of the Supreme Court and bailiffs of the courts of appeal, and coordinators of security for the judicial branch, as described in Section 830.36.

(Q) A fire department or fire protection agency of a county, city, city and county, district, or the state for use by either of the following:

(i) A member of an arson-investigating unit, regularly paid and employed in that capacity pursuant to Section 830.37.

(ii) A member other than a member of an arson-investigating unit, regularly paid and employed in that capacity pursuant to Section 830.37.

(R) The University of California Police Department, or the California State University Police Departments, as described in Section 830.2.

(S) A California Community College police department, as described in Section 830.32.

(c) (1) Notwithstanding Section 26825, a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, shall not process the sale or transfer of an unsafe handgun between a person who has obtained an unsafe handgun pursuant to an exemption specified in paragraph (6) of subdivision (b) and a person who is not exempt from the requirements of this section.
Thanks for the updated info. After all the sidebars, this seems to address the issue in the most comprehensive way. I appreciate it. Issue closed in my mind.
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  #46  
Old 04-30-2017, 3:42 PM
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I can't speak for everyone but I know I enjoy shooting as a hobby. I buy several handguns a year. Some I love and keep, others I don't. I typically don't keep guns I don't like.
I could definitely understand if there were LEO's buying guns in bulk and selling them to make regular and significant profits, but I think it's kinda ridiculous to "crack down" on those simply selling one to buy another.
On an somewhat unrelated note..... I've yet to catch a criminal with a 10 round mag or bullet button..... doesn't seem these laws do much to hinder criminals from doing whatever they please. Oh!!!! And thanks to prop 47 certain gun law violations are now misdemeanors.... so when your local theif get busted with a stolen firearm, guess what? Cite released from the scene to go about whatever business he'd like.
Ok... sorry... done ranting. Lol.
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  #47  
Old 04-30-2017, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swatter911 View Post
I have to wonder if you were even there, or are you just jawboning about what you saw on TV from the comfort of your easy chair?
Crib is more likely given that his DoB shows as three years prior to the riots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anbu_yoshi View Post
Holy heck... Did you just watch the LA Riots 25 years later documentaries and get all emotional?
Probably this^^

Don't hold your breaths for answers, he won't be replying in here again.
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  #48  
Old 04-30-2017, 11:16 PM
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As for the memo in question I'll only say one word: SacDep.
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  #49  
Old 04-30-2017, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCinCA View Post
Apparently in September of 2016, courtesy of AB 2165 (Bonta)... PC 32000 was changed. Peace Officers in quite a few agencies are no longer allowed to sell off roster handguns which were purchased with their LE creditials to non-peace officers. See below.

32000.
...

(6) Subject to the limitations set forth in subdivision (c), the sale or purchase of a handgun, if the handgun is sold to, or purchased by, any of the following entities or sworn members of these entities who have satisfactorily completed the firearms portion of a training course prescribed by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training pursuant to Section 832:

...
(c) (1) Notwithstanding Section 26825, a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, shall not process the sale or transfer of an unsafe handgun between a person who has obtained an unsafe handgun pursuant to an exemption specified in paragraph (6) of subdivision (b) and a person who is not exempt from the requirements of this section.
Not quite.

I suppose you might consider the list of newly qualifying agencies to be 'quite a few', but in comparison to all the county and city agencies, I don't see it that way.

While there may have been members of those newly named agencies who did get off-Roster handguns, based on their agency employment, before the change to 32000, those agencies are now clearly authorized.

But, the limitation on transfer applies only to the new list, and does not apply to off-Roster handguns such members (or any other LE in CA) may have acquired by PPT or intrafamilial transfer or inheritance or moved here from out of state.
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  #50  
Old 05-06-2017, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy78 View Post

The ATF does not care about the LEO that has had a back-up for a year or so and decides to sell it for a profit in order to buy a different back-up.

The problem is the obvious flagrant violation involving the LEO who goes down to Pro Force and walks out with three NIB Sig Legions and sells three NIB Legions the following week. That person has technically become a gun dealer without a FFL license.

Mark my word, if this continues, the legislature will remove the LEO exemption for off-roster guns unless the LEO can provide a letter from the head of their department authorizing the purchase for "official duties."

What gets me is a guy making well over $100,000 a year in his day job as a LEO, who has a pension worth millions would risk it all to make an extra $500-$600 on a gun sale. For God's sake work 5 or 6 hours of overtime if you need $500-$600 bucks and quit violating your oath.
^^^ Glad someone said it.

Takes integrity to appreciate the exemptions and privileges without abusing them..

That being said, working 8 hours on a fed grant funded DUI checkpoint is a pain in the *** way of building up that ProForce piggy bank. Especially with the micro-managing supervisors we have running it.. <sigh>
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  #51  
Old 05-07-2017, 12:28 PM
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Then again, this:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1330417
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  #52  
Old 05-07-2017, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
I know an lapd swat guy that got hammered for selling his Kimber.
This started the problem. Kimber gave LE a deep discount on their guns. The cops bought them and resold adding a couple hundred to their pocket. The brass got wind of it and stepped in with a warning. I don't think ATF got involved. Now many LE use their exemption to buy off roster guns then "decide" they don't like them and resell at a profit - thereby becoming unlicensed dealers since there is a pattern of this. This is what ATF is looking at. The fact that the CA roster is even conisdered is because these are the gun that can produce the most profit for the miscreant cop.
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  #53  
Old 05-07-2017, 1:48 PM
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[QUOTE=indy78;19968499]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc0311 View Post
Exactly, if your just buying with the ultimate goal of flipping the gun for a profit that's where the issue lies.[/QUOT

The ATF does not care about the LEO that has had a back-up for a year or so and decides to sell it for a profit in order to buy a different back-up.

The problem is the obvious flagrant violation involving the LEO who goes down to Pro Force and walks out with three NIB Sig Legions and sells three NIB Legions the following week. That person has technically become a gun dealer without a FFL license.

Mark my word, if this continues, the legislature will remove the LEO exemption for off-roster guns unless the LEO can provide a letter from the head of their department authorizing the purchase for "official duties."

What gets me is a guy making well over $100,000 a year in his day job as a LEO, who has a pension worth millions would risk it all to make an extra $500-$600 on a gun sale. For God's sake work 5 or 6 hours of overtime if you need $500-$600 bucks and quit violating your oath.
Agree with You 100%.

How about a situation like this :

LEO knows that if they buy an off roster handgun and for some reason dont like it , they can easly sell it for the full purchase price (including tax) and try something else without any monetary loss. (Something that would not work with ON ROSTER new handguns). Know that , LEO just buys whatever they think they may like and if they dont , sells it to buy something else. WITHOUT PROFFIT. Does that sound ok?

PS. Like going to the car dealership and knowing that any new car You buy , You can sell for the full amount that You paid ( inluding sales tax) after few months and go buy another one to try it out. And You can do it over and over. Without making any money OR loosing any money.
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  #54  
Old 05-13-2017, 8:56 AM
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It is true. DOJ recently sent a letter to law enforcement agencies across the State regarding buying and selling off roster guns. There have been a number of officers and/or deputies buying and selling several off roster guns in a short period of time. DOJ agents are monitoring the PPT DROS transactions and dealer activity. It appears the DOJ is hoping that by notifying the agencies, the activity will stop before prosecution begins. ATF may get involved if there's evidence officers are in the business of selling firearms without an FFL.

And I'll echo what has already been said: Please do not ruin the current PPT process and the exemption for law enforcement. If you need to make an extra buck, work overtime, or lateral to a higher paying agency. We don't need headlines from liberal media stating, "Police Are Selling Unsafe Handguns to Citizens." That's what will happen.

And please keep in mind that most LEOs believe the public should be able to carry the same guns LEOs can carry. It's the legislators who don't want you to have them.
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  #55  
Old 06-07-2017, 3:29 PM
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This is real....Be warned.
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  #56  
Old 06-07-2017, 4:22 PM
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Dang I guess my new sig legion I was about to list is "going back in the safe."
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  #57  
Old 06-07-2017, 4:42 PM
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So no where has it been discussed as to what time frame is considered unlicensed dealer.

If I buy a gun and keep it for a year then sell it off does DOJ consider that a unlicensed dealer?

If I bought a number of then roster now off roster guns and sell them does that make me the unlicensed dealer?

Has anyone at DOJ/ATF even provided a timeframe which they consider to unlicensed dealing?
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  #58  
Old 06-07-2017, 4:46 PM
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This is real....Be warned.
I feel like you know more than those five words.
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  #59  
Old 06-12-2017, 12:57 AM
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I think it was either the DOJ website or possibly the BOE website which indicated more than 2 sales in a 12 month period would constitute a "business". Also each sale could comprise of multiple guns, but you should research it to be certain as it has been a number of years since I researched this.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue187 View Post
So no where has it been discussed as to what time frame is considered unlicensed dealer.

If I buy a gun and keep it for a year then sell it off does DOJ consider that a unlicensed dealer?

If I bought a number of then roster now off roster guns and sell them does that make me the unlicensed dealer?

Has anyone at DOJ/ATF even provided a timeframe which they consider to unlicensed dealing?
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