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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #9401  
Old 04-20-2018, 6:34 AM
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Know of any current Nationally or World ranked competitive shooters that use a thumbs high grip instead of thumbs forward?
Know of any current Nationally or World ranked competitive shooters that use sul position immediately before and after shooting?

I'm not training for competition--I'm training for defense.

There are some excellent competitors like Jerry Miculek doing extremely well with some variant of isosceles and forward thumbs are an element in controlling muzzle flip, needed with isosceles.

Since i am not a professional shooter i would rather achieve about the same speed with far less training and practice, so i use modified weaver and therefore have dual planes of kinesthetic awareness for faster followup and don't need my thumbs forward.

Instead, i place my thumbs high so i can go in and out of sul while engaging active killers at my local mall.

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  #9402  
Old 04-20-2018, 10:04 AM
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Any idea how much ammo needed/recommended for a one day private RSB?
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  #9403  
Old 04-20-2018, 10:04 AM
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Any idea how much ammo needed/recommended for a one day private RSB?
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  #9404  
Old 04-20-2018, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Cake View Post
...
It makes physical sense to me that most of the recoil defense would be at the back and front of the grip to create a force couple. Gripping the sides would take a tremendous amount of force since it’s only resisting through friction...

I’m always in the search for getting the best techniques I can so maybe I’ll try it again and see if I can troubleshoot.
The thumbs forward grip is not supposed to grip the sides of the gun either. More like a C clamp both with the main hand and even with the support hand catching a small part of the backstrap. Add a wrist cam and you control the muzzle flip quite a bit as the gun comes straight back. There is no side to side pressure with the thumbs or anything else.

Here is a link that can explain it better than I can.
https://www.tacticalperformancecente...d-handgun-grip
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  #9405  
Old 04-20-2018, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
Any idea how much ammo needed/recommended for a one day private RSB?
I would take the amount suggested for the two-day skillbuilder but it can vary a great deal depending on what you are working on. I generally take 1000 rounds for private classes.
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  #9406  
Old 04-20-2018, 1:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
I would take the amount suggested for the two-day skillbuilder but it can vary a great deal depending on what you are working on. I generally take 1000 rounds for private classes.
Sounds good. Thanks AAShooter.

Addendum: Contacted FS. They recommended 200 rds. 2DRSB recommends 320 rds. Doesn't seem like much shooting/fun. I'm bringing more.

Last edited by nszzya; 04-20-2018 at 3:01 PM..
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  #9407  
Old 04-20-2018, 1:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guntrust View Post
Know of any current Nationally or World ranked competitive shooters that use sul position immediately before and after shooting?
Why would anyone ever do that? That is not really when position Sul is supposed to be used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guntrust View Post
Instead, i place my thumbs high so i can go in and out of sul while engaging active killers at my local mall.


Huh?
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  #9408  
Old 04-20-2018, 4:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guntrust View Post
Know of any current Nationally or World ranked competitive shooters that use sul position immediately before and after shooting?

I'm not training for competition--I'm training for defense.

There are some excellent competitors like Jerry Miculek doing extremely well with some variant of isosceles and forward thumbs are an element in controlling muzzle flip, needed with isosceles.

Since i am not a professional shooter i would rather achieve about the same speed with far less training and practice, so i use modified weaver and therefore have dual planes of kinesthetic awareness for faster followup and don't need my thumbs forward.

Instead, i place my thumbs high so i can go in and out of sul while engaging active killers at my local mall.

Yeah. You could describe Jerry Miculek as an excellent shooter who has done very well, using, I think you're saying an inferior technique. He's been one of the best shooters in national and world competition for over 20 years. Not Delta force obviously.
Great to see that with much less practice and training you're nearly as good and fast as him. Really?
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  #9409  
Old 04-20-2018, 6:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guntrust View Post
...

I'm not training for competition--I'm training for defense...
So, training to shoot sooner fast and accurately under stress is NOT required for defense?
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  #9410  
Old 04-21-2018, 10:07 AM
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I've been a First Family member since the Bakersfield days and IMHO it's a lot less fun. They still followed a course syllabus but were more interested in working with the students than following the letters on the paper. Of course, class sizes were a lot smaller ala 4 of us in the 4-day tactical shotgun and 6 IIRC in the 4-Day advances tactical shotgun. We also burned through twice as much ammo as the course required being forced to hit the local Big 5's for more birdshot on Saturday evening.
In comparison, the last shotgun class I took at Pahrump like it was was taught by robots. No joking around, nothing but stick to the script.
I miss the old days
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  #9411  
Old 04-21-2018, 12:06 PM
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If you look at national or world comp shooters in stuff like USPSA or IDPA, no one shoots weaver. No one shoots with the push pull grip. And no one shoots with the surprise break. It does work for them, but they all train (dry fire) and live fire A LOT. Those guys are shooting 15-20k rounds a year plus hours of dry fire per day.

I have taken every handgun class at FS except HCM. I have also taken classes from Ben Stoeger the current USPSA national champ and current ISPC world champ. He is faster and more accurate than any instructor I have seen at FS.

That being said, he is teaching skills for a sport. His class is not about trying to save my life in the middle of the night. It is about the balance of speed and accuracy for a specific comp set of rules.

FS is about teaching defensive techniques. FS is set up to take all levels of skill and move them forward in short time periods. There is a place for the techniques taught at FS. They do an excellent job with making new shooters safe.

All that being said, if you really want to go fast, you can get there with FS, but it may take longer than going to an instructor for competition.
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  #9412  
Old 04-21-2018, 1:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
...
I have taken every handgun class at FS except HCM. I have also taken classes from Ben Stoeger the current USPSA national champ and current ISPC world champ. He is faster and more accurate than any instructor I have seen at FS.

That being said, he is teaching skills for a sport. His class is not about trying to save my life in the middle of the night. It is about the balance of speed and accuracy for a specific comp set of rules.

FS is about teaching defensive techniques. FS is set up to take all levels of skill and move them forward in short time periods. There is a place for the techniques taught at FS. They do an excellent job with making new shooters safe.
...
Actually shooting fast and accurately IS saving your life in the middle of the night. We are not talking about defensive tactics but about shooting techniques. The FS introductory courses teach shooting for the most part.

Yes, FS does emphasize safety for new shooters and that is a good thing they do in introducing tens of thousands of people to shooting basically for free (diamond membership is < $100 from individuals). I just wish they would have modernized their curricula.
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  #9413  
Old 04-22-2018, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
Why would anyone ever do that? That is not really when position Sul is supposed to be used.




Huh?
Explain what YOU would use sul for.
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  #9414  
Old 04-22-2018, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by SG29736 View Post
Yeah. You could describe Jerry Miculek as an excellent shooter who has done very well, using, I think you're saying an inferior technique. He's been one of the best shooters in national and world competition for over 20 years. Not Delta force obviously.
Great to see that with much less practice and training you're nearly as good and fast as him. Really?
Sometimes i really hate this site. Lots of jerks trying to pick fights.

No, i did not say Miculek's technique is inferior--quite the opposite.

And no, I didn't say i was "nearly as good" in the sense you mean.

But it's possible for a young guy in good health, dry practicing a lot, etc., to do very well with the Front Sight way.

It's taken me 15 years at Front Sight to at long last DG, and i hope i can keep improving. (Some of my students have DG'd far more quickly.) When i say i could be "about as good" (in the future, mind you) i'm not counting milliseconds as they do in competition.

I mean "about as good" in a fight and that is not the focus in competition. Not really.
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  #9415  
Old 04-22-2018, 1:07 AM
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
So, training to shoot sooner fast and accurately under stress is NOT required for defense?
I don't know how you got that from what i posted.

Miculek is clearly faster than i will ever be, or want to be.

I really don't want to train that much. Do you?

I go to FS to learn defense, which involves a lot more **in addition** to speed and accuracy.

If i have to use my gun in a mall (or other crowded area) i want to be able to transition to and from a less threatening SUL position rather than the standard ready. Although they don't teach SUL in the basic classes at FS, many of the instructors will teach thumbs high and after learning SUL in the advanced class i think i realize why. Thumbs high transitions very well to and from the articulated thumbs of a proper SUL position.
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  #9416  
Old 04-22-2018, 5:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guntrust View Post
Explain what YOU would use sul for.
Sul is a handgun tactical position to be used primarily when working with a team. The three situations that Sul is appropriate are....

1) When moving with a team and you are not the cover man.
2) When friendlies cross your sector of fire or arc of coverage.
3) To dominate a number of unknown people who are verbally compliant but have not been determined to be friendlies.

Sul is not generally a handgun tactic that one would generally employ as an individual.....It was developed was for team use. I can understand why FS would even teach it unless it was preparation for two man team training, SWAT tactics, team structure clearing.... note the word "team" in all the applications. It therefore primarily a military and LE tactical position.

What were you taught to use Sul for?
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  #9417  
Old 04-22-2018, 6:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
Sul is a handgun tactical position to be used primarily when working with a team. The three situations that Sul is appropriate are....

1) When moving with a team and you are not the cover man.
2) When friendlies cross your sector of fire or arc of coverage.
3) To dominate a number of unknown people who are verbally compliant but have not been determined to be friendlies.

Sul is not generally a handgun tactic that one would generally employ as an individual.....It was developed was for team use. I can understand why FS would even teach it unless it was preparation for two man team training, SWAT tactics, team structure clearing.... note the word "team" in all the applications. It therefore primarily a military and LE tactical position.

What were you taught to use Sul for?


Hey OC
From my experience in their training itís taught as a way to be able to scan your environment after a shooting to make sure there are not other threats, without muzzling the general public. Like as opposed to coming down to low ready. Just a way for an individual to remain ready if another threat comes up but keep the gun pointed safely.
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  #9418  
Old 04-22-2018, 8:00 AM
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SUL is also used to not scare on-lookers or make you look like you're in an offensive position in a defensive shooting situation. A german police officer taught me how they use it in the streets. Normally, the support hand is under the handgun and close to the body. They place the support hand over the handgun, concealing it.

Last edited by DRM6000; 04-22-2018 at 8:04 AM..
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  #9419  
Old 04-22-2018, 8:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guntrust View Post
...
Miculek is clearly faster than i will ever be, or want to be.

I really don't want to train that much. Do you?
Actually, yes. I want to improve and meet my shooting goals. Though, not being a pro I don't dry fire more than an hour total a day and don't shoot more than 4-5K rounds a month (between training and competitions). So, my progress is slower but it is progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guntrust View Post
...
...If i have to use my gun in a mall (or other crowded area) i want to be able to transition to and from a less threatening SUL position rather than the standard ready. Although they don't teach SUL in the basic classes at FS, many of the instructors will teach thumbs high and after learning SUL in the advanced class i think i realize why. Thumbs high transitions very well to and from the articulated thumbs of a proper SUL position.
I fail to see how the thumb position of hands matter in regards to final grip in a standard SUL position. In either case you are finalizing a grip with the support hand, thumb positions should not come into play in regards to time spent. From articulated thumbs if you rotate them while pointing the gun you will naturally fall into thumbs forward with your grip which is what LEOs and SWAT etc. are going into.

I guess the final test is be in a SUL position use a timer and fire an aimed shot at a target 7 yards or so down range using both grips. See, if there is a difference in times.

Edit: Actually, I'd take two shots in test. I'd guess that with thumbs high you will have more of a muzzle flip and a slower aimed second shot.
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Last edited by tanks; 04-22-2018 at 8:16 AM..
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  #9420  
Old 04-22-2018, 9:35 AM
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For the average Joe, good gun handling and shooting skills and very good situational awareness is what we need for self defense. Plus, the will to pull the trigger if necessary. There isn't really a bunch of tactics involved.
But, higher level skills and tactical knowledge is a plus. There are 80 year old grandmother who have never fired a gun before, who have successfully defended themselves killing the bad guy in the process. They did prove they were willing to do what had to be done.
If I have removed my gun from the holster, I will reholster when there is no more threat. While the gun is out, I want the other guy to perceive me as a threat.
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  #9421  
Old 04-22-2018, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRM6000 View Post
SUL is also used to not scare on-lookers or make you look like you're in an offensive position in a defensive shooting situation. A german police officer taught me how they use it in the streets. Normally, the support hand is under the handgun and close to the body. They place the support hand over the handgun, concealing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guntrust View Post
Know of any current Nationally or World ranked competitive shooters that use sul position immediately before and after shooting?...Instead, i place my thumbs high so i can go in and out of sul while engaging active killers at my local mall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guntrust View Post
Explain what YOU would use sul for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guntrust View Post
If i have to use my gun in a mall (or other crowded area) i want to be able to transition to and from a less threatening SUL position rather than the standard ready. Although they don't teach SUL in the basic classes at FS, many of the instructors will teach thumbs high and after learning SUL in the advanced class i think i realize why. Thumbs high transitions very well to and from the articulated thumbs of a proper SUL position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Cake View Post
Hey OC
From my experience in their training it’s taught as a way to be able to scan your environment after a shooting to make sure there are not other threats, without muzzling the general public. Like as opposed to coming down to low ready. Just a way for an individual to remain ready if another threat comes up but keep the gun pointed safely.
For the sake of clarification...and education...



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  #9422  
Old 04-23-2018, 6:31 AM
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Originally Posted by GW View Post
I've been a First Family member since the Bakersfield days and IMHO it's a lot less fun. They still followed a course syllabus but were more interested in working with the students than following the letters on the paper. Of course, class sizes were a lot smaller ala 4 of us in the 4-day tactical shotgun and 6 IIRC in the 4-Day advances tactical shotgun. We also burned through twice as much ammo as the course required being forced to hit the local Big 5's for more birdshot on Saturday evening.
In comparison, the last shotgun class I took at Pahrump like it was was taught by robots. No joking around, nothing but stick to the script.
I miss the old days

Amen, miss the old days, miss some of the long gone instructors who made it interesting and fun.
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  #9423  
Old 04-23-2018, 7:31 AM
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Actually, yes. I want to improve and meet my shooting goals. Though, not being a pro I don't dry fire more than an hour total a day and don't shoot more than 4-5K rounds a month (between training and competitions). So, my progress is slower but it is progress.

I fail to see how the thumb position of hands matter in regards to final grip in a standard SUL position. In either case you are finalizing a grip with the support hand, thumb positions should not come into play in regards to time spent. From articulated thumbs if you rotate them while pointing the gun you will naturally fall into thumbs forward with your grip which is what LEOs and SWAT etc. are going into.
An hour of dry practice per day and 4-5k rds/mo! Sure you're not a pro?

I agree with your assessment of grip as related to sul. Shouldn't be a big time difference and follow up shots with thumbs forward would likely be faster.
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Old 04-23-2018, 7:57 AM
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Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
An hour of dry practice per day and 4-5k rds/mo! Sure you're not a pro?
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Old 04-23-2018, 4:01 PM
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Went to gun site last summer, I am a life time Front Site member and seemed to be just motor boating there. Actually it was my wife's idea. When you go from FS method trained instructors to all retired LE and special ops guys with 3-4 tours of Afghanistan well it was amazing. I was asked after the first day, how much of the FS tricks are you willing to exchange. I said lets go. No games, side stepping nothing. Just how the top military train. They debunked several of the old school outdated crap like standing sideways so the hit you get goes through 3 organs rather than 1. I was pleased to say the least and left there never shooting as well. They last time I checked in about 3 plus years ago FS was showing the movie of the earth movers rolling in to start the hotels and campsites? Any one seen any progress? All I see is digital movies of what they are going to look like. 14 years and still do not even have my named engraved on the head stone? Never going to happen guys. Going to drink fine wine once a year rather than Mogan David several times. GS was absolutely amazing.
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Old 04-23-2018, 4:31 PM
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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
For the sake of clarification...and education...
...
Thanks for the links, it was interesting and educational.
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  #9427  
Old 04-23-2018, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Thanks for the links, it was interesting and educational.
I remember being taught SUL back in 1997 when Max and Alan returned from Brazil. I have used it training in a two man element, executive protection drills and entry / assault team training / structure clearing. It has always been a source of amusement thru the years, as SUL has slowly gained acceptance in the LE / military communities, to see it taught and / or used incorrectly in civilian videos and magazines. Even now it seems a bit odd to hear of it being applied by lone individuals in FS training. Individually, I generally stand down from an engagement to "guard" and holster if appropriate, from there...
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Old 04-26-2018, 9:30 AM
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Originally Posted by w00dmaster View Post
Went to gun site last summer, I am a life time Front Site member and seemed to be just motor boating there. Actually it was my wife's idea. When you go from FS method trained instructors to all retired LE and special ops guys with 3-4 tours of Afghanistan well it was amazing. I was asked after the first day, how much of the FS tricks are you willing to exchange. I said lets go. No games, side stepping nothing. Just how the top military train. They debunked several of the old school outdated crap like standing sideways so the hit you get goes through 3 organs rather than 1. I was pleased to say the least and left there never shooting as well. They last time I checked in about 3 plus years ago FS was showing the movie of the earth movers rolling in to start the hotels and campsites? Any one seen any progress? All I see is digital movies of what they are going to look like. 14 years and still do not even have my named engraved on the head stone? Never going to happen guys. Going to drink fine wine once a year rather than Mogan David several times. GS was absolutely amazing.
No reason you can't do both . . . look for lots of training opportunities. Front Sight is one of many providers. If you don't think FS has anything to offer, move along. If you like Gun Sight, knock yourself out. Again, I would encourage you to look for a variety of suppliers.

61 posts on Calguns . . . all whining about FS. SMH
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Last edited by AAShooter; 04-26-2018 at 9:47 AM..
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  #9429  
Old 04-26-2018, 11:55 AM
nszzya nszzya is offline
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Anyone else receive a notice from USPS that "Front Sight management has sent you a package"?

Wonder what it could be.
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  #9430  
Old 04-26-2018, 12:01 PM
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My hat and coin they owe me?😀
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Old 04-26-2018, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w00dmaster View Post
Went to gun site last summer, I am a life time Front Site member and seemed to be just motor boating there. Actually it was my wife's idea. When you go from FS method trained instructors to all retired LE and special ops guys with 3-4 tours of Afghanistan well it was amazing. I was asked after the first day, how much of the FS tricks are you willing to exchange. I said lets go. No games, side stepping nothing. Just how the top military train. They debunked several of the old school outdated crap like standing sideways so the hit you get goes through 3 organs rather than 1. I was pleased to say the least and left there never shooting as well. They last time I checked in about 3 plus years ago FS was showing the movie of the earth movers rolling in to start the hotels and campsites? Any one seen any progress? All I see is digital movies of what they are going to look like. 14 years and still do not even have my named engraved on the head stone? Never going to happen guys. Going to drink fine wine once a year rather than Mogan David several times. GS was absolutely amazing.


Thanks. My trigger finger was getting itchy to put someone on the ignore list.
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Old 04-26-2018, 12:17 PM
nszzya nszzya is offline
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Originally Posted by damon1272 View Post
My hat and coin they owe me?😀
I upgraded to the 1 Private membership in January, so I bet you're right.
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  #9433  
Old 04-26-2018, 6:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surferbum View Post
Thanks. My trigger finger was getting itchy to put someone on the ignore list.
LMAO.. snowflake much? Dont go into the Off topic forum....
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  #9434  
Old 04-27-2018, 12:57 PM
Jerry1834 Jerry1834 is offline
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Just back from the 4 day - was great and even Graduated this time - my shooting was a little down (down 25) but scored perfect on the malfunction drills. Each trip I have improved - took 3 trip to become a grad which I don't think was to bad.

Sure is addicting and wish something was on the table for the East coast somewhere near Florida....

Going out again in Oct with a large group - yearly trip - then planning on 2 weeks in late March and early April with the wife....
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  #9435  
Old 04-27-2018, 1:19 PM
nszzya nszzya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry1834 View Post
Just back from the 4 day - was great and even Graduated this time - my shooting was a little down (down 25) but scored perfect on the malfunction drills. Each trip I have improved - took 3 trip to become a grad which I don't think was to bad.

Sure is addicting and wish something was on the table for the East coast somewhere near Florida....

Going out again in Oct with a large group - yearly trip - then planning on 2 weeks in late March and early April with the wife....
Congrats!
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Old 04-27-2018, 3:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry1834 View Post
Just back from the 4 day - was great and even Graduated this time - my shooting was a little down (down 25) but scored perfect on the malfunction drills. Each trip I have improved - took 3 trip to become a grad which I don't think was to bad.

Sure is addicting and wish something was on the table for the East coast somewhere near Florida....

Going out again in Oct with a large group - yearly trip - then planning on 2 weeks in late March and early April with the wife....
Nicely done. Congrats.
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  #9437  
Old 04-27-2018, 3:22 PM
Jerry1834 Jerry1834 is offline
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Thanks! First time out I missed grad by one point - second time was a total Fu&* up - tried to hard - 3rd time I was prepared and new I could max the malfunction drill - DG next time - dam head box shots kill me.

We had Austin Thompson as the Range Master - really a good instruction and keep the class lively.........
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  #9438  
Old 04-27-2018, 9:20 PM
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Austin is a great RM.
congrats on the Graduate score, that certainly is quite the accomplishment.

how big of a group in Oct? what dates if you don't mind me asking.
I'm planning a group trip in oct or early nov, just trying to find dates. (once they release them)
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Old 04-27-2018, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry1834 View Post
Just back from the 4 day - was great and even Graduated this time - my shooting was a little down (down 25) but scored perfect on the malfunction drills. Each trip I have improved - took 3 trip to become a grad which I don't think was to bad.

Sure is addicting and wish something was on the table for the East coast somewhere near Florida....

Going out again in Oct with a large group - yearly trip - then planning on 2 weeks in late March and early April with the wife....
Took me 13 years to graduate.

Of course, i have my excuses...but you passing in 3 tries is nothing short of AWESOME!
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Old 04-28-2018, 3:14 AM
Jerry1834 Jerry1834 is offline
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Our group will be anywhere from 14 to 24 - Last Nov we had 24 shooters ( ave age about 70) and I think we are up around 16 to date for Oct 8 class.

Thanks for the Congrats - I had the know how but just rusty, slow and the eyes aren't of a 25 year old anymore - LOL!
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