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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 08-16-2018, 8:39 AM
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Default 6.5x47 Lapua vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Looking for opinions on the pros and cons of the 6.5x47 Lapua and 6.5 Creedmoor.

I liked the 6.5x47 Lapua over the Creedmoor initially, because Lapua did not make Creedmoor brass, and what there was did not use a small rifle primer. I also liked the fact that Lapua designed the 6.5 x 47 for 300 meter (about 330 yards) competition, which may be a frequent distance I would shoot it at.

I still like the 6.5 x 47 for other reasons but please correct me if I am off base. The case is shorter than the Creedmoor by 0.070". reducing powder capacity and velocity vs the Creedmoor, but then the shorter case allows more room for bullets to pushed out of the neck when chasing the lands. The shorter case may also more easily allow fitment into standard magazines with long bullets and/or those that are pushed out into the neck (chasing lands). Both cases have long necks to allow a wide adjustment in bullet seating depths.

The 6.5x47 does hold less powder, but runs at a higher pressure (63,000 psi) vs the Creedmoor. I would expect the 6.5x47 Lapua to offer slightly longer barrel life, but not sure on that. It would be slightly cheaper to reload due to the reduced powder capacity, but this is minimal.

I would expect the 6.5x47 to offer a bit less recoil for the same bullet weight, since velocity is slightly less than the Creedmoor.

My focus is on accuracy. I would shoot it at 100, 300, 550, and perhaps 1000 yards, from a magazine fed rifle, in an area that can sometimes be still or quite breezy. It would be shot off a bipod at times, and a mechanical from rest at other times. Ease of tuning for a load is important. I have Quickload software and do all my own reloading on quality equipment. The rifle will be based on a Howa action.

If you are a fan of either cartridge, please tell me why.

Phil
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil3 View Post
Looking for opinions on the pros and cons of the 6.5x47 Lapua and 6.5 Creedmoor.

I liked the 6.5x47 Lapua over the Creedmoor initially, because Lapua did not make Creedmoor brass, and what there was did not use a small rifle primer. I also liked the fact that Lapua designed the 6.5 x 47 for 300 meter (about 330 yards) competition, which may be a frequent distance I would shoot it at.

I still like the 6.5 x 47 for other reasons but please correct me if I am off base. The case is shorter than the Creedmoor by 0.070". reducing powder capacity and velocity vs the Creedmoor, but then the shorter case allows more room for bullets to pushed out of the neck when chasing the lands. The shorter case may also more easily allow fitment into standard magazines with long bullets and/or those that are pushed out into the neck (chasing lands). Both cases have long necks to allow a wide adjustment in bullet seating depths.

The 6.5x47 does hold less powder, but runs at a higher pressure (63,000 psi) vs the Creedmoor. I would expect the 6.5x47 Lapua to offer slightly longer barrel life, but not sure on that. It would be slightly cheaper to reload due to the reduced powder capacity, but this is minimal.

I would expect the 6.5x47 to offer a bit less recoil for the same bullet weight, since velocity is slightly less than the Creedmoor.

My focus is on accuracy. I would shoot it at 100, 300, 550, and perhaps 1000 yards, from a magazine fed rifle, in an area that can sometimes be still or quite breezy. It would be shot off a bipod at times, and a mechanical from rest at other times. Ease of tuning for a load is important. I have Quickload software and do all my own reloading on quality equipment. The rifle will be based on a Howa action.

If you are a fan of either cartridge, please tell me why.

Phil
The other than the small primer and brass advantage offset as you mentioned by similar brass now available, I think your over analyzing the differences. As an example, your recoil difference is not in play as you can load the creed to the same slightly lower velocity. Also, it is really, really hard to tell the difference in 50-75fps on a match gun with those relatively light 6.5s.

FWIW - I have no issues seating any 6.5 bullet I want in a creed case, that's one of the reason the creed came to be.

What you gain with a creed chamber, is flexibility. Ya, I know we reload. But it is still nice to be able to go anywhere and get ammo to stay in business.

If you're worried about the .1MOA accuracy differences for paper, maybe you should look into the 6BR. The 47 and Creed on steel, are the same.

Edited to add: For what it is worth, I was on 6mm, shot a 6.5 47 breifly, then rechambered in 6.5 creed. I struggled with the thoughts of going back to 6mm (never back to the 47). I shoot too much and just decided with the barrel life good, impacts easier to see, abundant brass and cheap ammo for the 6.5, to chamber 3 new barrels in 6.5 creed that I am eagerly waiting for.
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil3 View Post
Looking for opinions on the pros and cons of the 6.5x47 Lapua and 6.5 Creedmoor.

I liked the 6.5x47 Lapua over the Creedmoor initially, because Lapua did not make Creedmoor brass, and what there was did not use a small rifle primer. I also liked the fact that Lapua designed the 6.5 x 47 for 300 meter (about 330 yards) competition, which may be a frequent distance I would shoot it at.

I still like the 6.5 x 47 for other reasons but please correct me if I am off base. The case is shorter than the Creedmoor by 0.070". reducing powder capacity and velocity vs the Creedmoor, but then the shorter case allows more room for bullets to pushed out of the neck when chasing the lands. The shorter case may also more easily allow fitment into standard magazines with long bullets and/or those that are pushed out into the neck (chasing lands). Both cases have long necks to allow a wide adjustment in bullet seating depths.

The 6.5x47 does hold less powder, but runs at a higher pressure (63,000 psi) vs the Creedmoor. I would expect the 6.5x47 Lapua to offer slightly longer barrel life, but not sure on that. It would be slightly cheaper to reload due to the reduced powder capacity, but this is minimal.

I would expect the 6.5x47 to offer a bit less recoil for the same bullet weight, since velocity is slightly less than the Creedmoor.

My focus is on accuracy. I would shoot it at 100, 300, 550, and perhaps 1000 yards, from a magazine fed rifle, in an area that can sometimes be still or quite breezy. It would be shot off a bipod at times, and a mechanical from rest at other times. Ease of tuning for a load is important. I have Quickload software and do all my own reloading on quality equipment. The rifle will be based on a Howa action.

If you are a fan of either cartridge, please tell me why.

Phil
With the advent of Lapua small primer 6.5 Creedmoor brass, there is no more compelling reasons to still build a 6.5x47 other than having the dies and not wanting to get 6.5creedmoor brass and dies.

If someone did NOT already have 6.5x47 brass and dies they wanted to use, 6.5Creedmoor is the clear choice.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:18 AM
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If you have a standard SAAMI 6.5 Creedmoor chamber, the freebore on freshly reamed barrel is 0.215".

While most 6.5mm bullets can be seated near the lands and still be short enough to load from a magazine, the high BC bullets like the Berger 140 Hybrid Target, Hornady 147 ELD-M, and Nosler 140 RDF will exceed the short action magazine length COL (typical ~2.850") if not from the get-go then surely well before the barrel is shot out as the throat erodes.

I have some fairly accurate 6.5 Creedmoor and 6 Creedmoor rifles, but they took quite a bit of load development to get them to group around 1/2" at 100 yards. Some of the rougher Creedmoor-based barrels still are not consistently sub MOA for me (the Ruger and Ballistic Advantage).

On the other hand, I have a 6.5 x 47 Lapua rifle and a 6 x 47 Lapua rifle, that were shooting in the .2's and .3's by the third range session.

Maybe I got lucky with both the x47 Lapua rifles, but that's 2 for 2. One Krieger barrel and one Bartlein barrel.

For comparison, my track record for easy load development for Creedmoor based cases has been like 1 for 5.

Granted not all these barrels were top-tier: one Proof Research 6.5 (easy load development), one Bartlein 6mm (not easy), one Criterion Remage 6.5 (not easy), one Ballistic Advantage 6.5 (not easy), and one Ruger factory 6.5 (not easy).
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:23 AM
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Another thing to note is that the difference in achievable velocity between the two cartridges is negligible if you consider that:

Assuming usage of Lapua brass for both, the Creedmoor case has potential for higher velocity at 63,000 PSI, but your fastest accuracy node may or may not be faster than the fastest node you might achieve with the same bullet and powder in the x47 case.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:50 AM
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The differences between 6.5x47 Lapua and 6.5 Creedmoor are so minute, you won't be able to tell the difference in recoil.
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:24 PM
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Default 6.5x47 Lapua vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmykan View Post
If you have a standard SAAMI 6.5 Creedmoor chamber, the freebore on freshly reamed barrel is 0.215".



While most 6.5mm bullets can be seated near the lands and still be short enough to load from a magazine, the high BC bullets like the Berger 140 Hybrid Target, Hornady 147 ELD-M, and Nosler 140 RDF will exceed the short action magazine length COL (typical ~2.850") if not from the get-go then surely well before the barrel is shot out as the throat erodes.



I have some fairly accurate 6.5 Creedmoor and 6 Creedmoor rifles, but they took quite a bit of load development to get them to group around 1/2" at 100 yards. Some of the rougher Creedmoor-based barrels still are not consistently sub MOA for me (the Ruger and Ballistic Advantage).



On the other hand, I have a 6.5 x 47 Lapua rifle and a 6 x 47 Lapua rifle, that were shooting in the .2's and .3's by the third range session.



Maybe I got lucky with both the x47 Lapua rifles, but that's 2 for 2. One Krieger barrel and one Bartlein barrel.



For comparison, my track record for easy load development for Creedmoor based cases has been like 1 for 5.



Granted not all these barrels were top-tier: one Proof Research 6.5 (easy load development), one Bartlein 6mm (not easy), one Criterion Remage 6.5 (not easy), one Ballistic Advantage 6.5 (not easy), and one Ruger factory 6.5 (not easy).


Seems like a very hard comparison to make on the 6.5s, Creed vrs the 47, you had way better barrels on the 47. Also, are you comparing the ease of loading for small primer 6.5 with comparing large primer brass?

The 100 yard groups should not be different, because of the cartridge, both are capable of very small holes. ES is a bit harder to control on large rifle primers, but again, we have small primer 6.5 creed brass.

I think if going custom, you can set the freebore on the 47 or Creed, not sure why you had issues.

I try to rebarrel my creed when it opens up to a 1/2”, as a lot of guys do. Not sure other than your barrels and chambers why you struggled to get 1/2” with a Creed. Heck, with factory Prime and Hornady, both shoot under a 1/2 minute in every 6.5 Creed with a good barrel I have shot.

For clarity, I am talking about 100 yards, really doing everything to send them correctly, just as I might for load developing or zeroing the rifle. I am not anyway saying the new barrels/loads are sub 1/2 moa “all day long” at all distances in every shooting position type of BS. And I acknowledge that my 1/4” or whatever group at 100, will miss plenty of 2moa long range targets during a match, as does everyone else.

Last and this is huge to me, I got stuck and missed a very expensive match because my 47 brass didn’t show up. I don’t want to be held hostage to skimpy 47 supplies. H4350 is bad enough... but there is always factory creed as a backup.

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Old 08-16-2018, 3:40 PM
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BTW, Brownell's has 8 pound kegs of H4350 for 189.99 in stock.
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Old 08-16-2018, 5:10 PM
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Given the big boost in popularity of the 6.5 Creedmoor recently, I'd anticipate components and general overall availability of anything 6.5 CM to be significantly better in the immediate future. That would also mean lower overall cost whether reloading or buying off the shelf.
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Old 08-16-2018, 5:51 PM
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Phil
Give Dangerous Bob Dorton a call in Sacramento and ask him what he sees on the Benchrest line at 1000 yards. That will answer your accuracy question or you can PM SwitchBarrel on this forum as he would also know if he doesn't post.
The advantage of the long necks is they keep the burning powder going down the centerline of the bore commonly known as the turbulence point. You want the burning gas to chase the heel of the bullet and not bouncing around the bore. The other advantage to a long neck is in aligning the bullet concentrically with the bore. It requires a tight neck chamber and neck turning your brass.
With the newer monolithic solids the bullets keep getting longer and longer so whatever way you go make sure it will fit in your magazine.
The boattail to base junction needs to be 0.050 or more in front of the neck/shoulder junction to avoid donuts and the Venturi affect and Concentricity issues they cause. That means you can't use a reamer with too little freebore or your bullets will hit the donut. The shorter the freebore the shorter the OAL which helps with the magazine length but it puts you into the donut.
The 0.070 in length is negated by the pressure. The harder you push powder the cleaner it burns. Since you reload I doubt you will notice any velocity window differences. Your after the most accurate load you can find at the top node not the fastest you can push the bullet.
It is common to see a 150 FPS difference between the most accurate load and the cartridges maximum velocity. You want accuracy.
If your hunting you can scrub off some accuracy for the extra velocity.

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Old 08-17-2018, 7:15 AM
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if your main goal is accuracy i believe the 6.5x47 set a 1000yd record this year with 140g hybrids
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Old 08-17-2018, 10:35 AM
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if your main goal is accuracy i believe the 6.5x47 set a 1000yd record this year with 140g hybrids

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Old 08-19-2018, 6:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
I think your over analyzing the differences

Edited to add: For what it is worth, I was on 6mm, shot a 6.5 47 breifly, then rechambered in 6.5 creed. I struggled with the thoughts of going back to 6mm (never back to the 47).
Thanks for your reply. If the differences I mentioned are over-analyzing, then I will take that as the differences being too trivial to concern oneself with. That is good information to know. But, you also said you would never go back to a 6.5x47 after the 6.5 Creedmoor. I do not know if you had a rifle in 6.5x47 and then rechambered it to a 6.5 Creedmoor, but it you did, it sounds like you really did not like the 6.5 x 47. I cannot say for sure, but may I ask what, if anything, you did not like about the 6.5x47.

You mentioned the 6BR (for top accuracy). I know..., I built one. Also, I never buy ammo off the shelf, so have no need for Creedmoor ammo availability.

Thanks.

Phil

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Old 08-19-2018, 6:49 PM
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Default 6.5x47 Lapua vs 6.5 Creedmoor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil3 View Post
Thanks for your reply. If the differences I mentioned are over-analyzing, then I will take that as the differences being too trivial to concern oneself with. That is good information to know. But, you also said you would never go back to a 6.5x47 after the 6.5 Creedmoor. I do not know if you had a rifle in 6.5x47 and then rechambered it to a 6.5 Creedmoor, but it you did, it sounds like you really did not like the 6.5 x 47. I cannot say for sure, but may I ask what, if anything, you did not like about the 6.5x47.

You mentioned the 6BR (for top accuracy). I know..., I built one. Also, I never buy ammo off the shelf, so have no need for Creedmoor ammo availability.

Thanks.

Phil


Thanks for the reply.

I should clarify that I like the small primer pocket and like the 47. My issue was brass availability.

I was replying as I thought you asked for Pro's or Cons and obviously could only respond from my experiences. From the AICS in your post, I assumed you are also a field shooter and not a BR guy, sorry if that was misguided.

In some matches, we might shoot 200 rounds over the weekend and you really can not get all your brass back in some of them. Maybe it was poor planning, but I found myself shortly after chambering in 47, not able to get more brass. So, I ended up not going back east for the match, the steep entry lost. So I made the decision to run a Creed. At the time there was only Ruag, Norma and Hornady; but there was also enough factory around. Today, 6.5 Creed is becoming about as easy to get as 308 and with the small primer Lapua SD/ES control seems better.

The matches I like while certainly challenging, a stage often over 1k; they really arenít lost by a 1/10 moa in the ammo like a 300 yard BR match. I hope that makes sense.

Also when I mentioned 6Br I was kinda referring to that entire group, dashers etc.






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Old 08-21-2018, 7:49 AM
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Hi,

Understood on brass availability for the 6.5x47 Lapua. I do know the stuff was near impossible to find for a while. I completely understand your reasons for using a 6.5 Creedmoor. In your circumstance, at the time, I would likely do the same thing.

As far as the AICS rifle in my avatar, I posted that image because I rather like that rifle. As far as field shooting, I am just a regular guy, too old to do field shooting, finding myself content to fire off a bench at a paper target or steel in a non-competitive environment. Even my 6BR is in a varmint stock, but built it to see how small a group I can shoot off a bipod and light rear bag.

I am finding it hard to shoot where I want and distances I want without being in competition. But, I may have too. But, not really into full-blown BenchRest.

Phil
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