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  #1  
Old 11-07-2008, 10:22 PM
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Default My DOJ Inspection and Split PPTs

I had my first DOJ inspection today and learned that split PPTs are a NO GO.

The only way to transfer firearms between distant folks without both parties present to to treat it as a consignment sale. One problem, however, is the fact that the FFL must witness both signatures. I suppose one could store video via webcam of the consignor signing the form. At least this is possible in 2008.

I also found out that I need a mag stripe reader for DROS. Yay. Another $85. Someone please buy a gun so I can pay off this stuff!

On that note, it's Obama Sale time at California Handgun Exchange! 5% over wholesale or internet transfer price on all firearms. I want to put that piece in your mitts!
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  #2  
Old 11-07-2008, 10:40 PM
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What's a split PPT?

Turby
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  #3  
Old 11-07-2008, 10:43 PM
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What's a split PPT?

Turby
Way to do a PPT gun transfer without the seller and buyer meeting face to face.
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  #4  
Old 11-08-2008, 9:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudolf the Red View Post

On that note, it's Obama Sale time at California Handgun Exchange! 5% over wholesale or internet transfer price on all firearms. I want to put that piece in your mitts!
Now this is class! Way to support the RKBA movement, not bend us over then post a thread complaining about customers asking about inventory. If you were closer, I'd be honored to buy a handgun from you.
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  #5  
Old 11-08-2008, 9:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Slayer View Post
Now this is class! Way to support the RKBA movement, not bend us over then post a thread complaining about customers asking about inventory. If you were closer, I'd be honored to buy a handgun from you.
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  #6  
Old 11-08-2008, 1:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolf the Red View Post
I had my first DOJ inspection today and learned that split PPTs are a NO GO.

The only way to transfer firearms between distant folks without both parties present to to treat it as a consignment sale. One problem, however, is the fact that the FFL must witness both signatures. I suppose one could store video via webcam of the consignor signing the form. At least this is possible in 2008.
...

Did you ask about the split ppt or have one you were involved with?
If you were part of one, what was their re-course?
I've never had the opportunity to get involved with one, but was told by DOJ they would unwind the paperwork if they came across a split ppt...
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  #7  
Old 11-08-2008, 1:24 PM
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Originally Posted by hawk1 View Post
Did you ask about the split ppt or have one you were involved with?
If you were part of one, what was their re-course?
I've never had the opportunity to get involved with one, but was told by DOJ they would unwind the paperwork if they came across a split ppt...
I asked about it because it was something I wanted to promote and a bunch of folks on here believe it is possible. Looks like I will need to figure out a method of remote consignment.
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  #8  
Old 11-08-2008, 1:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Slayer View Post
Now this is class! Way to support the RKBA movement, not bend us over then post a thread complaining about customers asking about inventory. If you were closer, I'd be honored to buy a handgun from you.

Well, thank you.

I have a real job so I am able to get great deals for anyone interested. I jumped through all the hoops in order to help people obtain the firearms they want at a reasonable price with no hassle. I have no inventory. I am more of a buyer/consultant. If you ever want to know the wholesale price of something, I will tell you. My prices are a straight % cut of wholesale or internet purchase price.
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  #9  
Old 11-08-2008, 2:56 PM
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I'm pretty sure there's a way to transfer without doing a consignment sale. In fact, I'm certain there is. Hopefully someone like TenPercent will chime in.
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  #10  
Old 11-08-2008, 8:29 PM
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I'm pretty sure there's a way to transfer without doing a consignment sale. In fact, I'm certain there is. Hopefully someone like TenPercent will chime in.
I'd love to hear of a way.
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  #11  
Old 11-08-2008, 8:38 PM
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Originally Posted by M. Sage View Post
I'm pretty sure there's a way to transfer without doing a consignment sale. In fact, I'm certain there is. Hopefully someone like TenPercent will chime in.
There is, it's called a split-PPT .
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  #12  
Old 11-08-2008, 9:02 PM
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There is, it's called a split-PPT .
Why do you think the DOJ audit guy said these were not kosher? You'd think he would know.
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  #13  
Old 11-08-2008, 9:10 PM
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Why do you think the DOJ audit guy said these were not kosher? You'd think he would know.
Maybe. The field agents have been mistaken about issues more material than that before.
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  #14  
Old 11-09-2008, 7:47 AM
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Maybe. The field agents have been mistaken about issues more material than that before.
True on other issues not material to their specific purpose, but with issues directly concerning DROS paperwork wouldn't they be the last word? Or at a minimum the last word before a FFL asks for a review from someone higher up? I'm not even sure they have an option or process to ask for a ruling on a violation written by an auditor?
I, like everyone else, would love to see a split ppt be the norm.
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  #15  
Old 11-09-2008, 8:15 AM
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Why the rollseyes, lame. I agree with Slayer on this one,very honorable of the OP to do this promotion.
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  #16  
Old 11-09-2008, 9:37 AM
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Why the rollseyes, lame. I agree with Slayer on this one,very honorable of the OP to do this promotion.
The rolleyes weren't at the OP they were at the intentional dig against tenpercent
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  #17  
Old 11-09-2008, 12:54 PM
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Where are you at in Tehama? I'm in Yuba City now, but grew up inyour area...and wouldn't mind visiting the family to pick up a new gun.
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  #18  
Old 11-09-2008, 1:28 PM
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Where are you at in Tehama? I'm in Yuba City now, but grew up inyour area...and wouldn't mind visiting the family to pick up a new gun.
Cottonwood. 4 miles from I-5.
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  #19  
Old 11-09-2008, 1:41 PM
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  #20  
Old 11-09-2008, 2:51 PM
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Hi neighbor! If your in Tehama and Cottenwood.... you must be off Bowman Rd?

Take care,Stan
Actually, east of I-5 in Lake California. Need any guns?
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  #21  
Old 11-10-2008, 6:57 AM
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Stan, are you up there in Tehema as well?
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  #22  
Old 11-10-2008, 4:31 PM
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Maybe. The field agents have been mistaken about issues more material than that before.
+1 to this. At my audit, my inspector told me flat out that all BB- and Prince 50-equipped ARs were felonys waiting to happen and that RAA Saigas were banned. The field guys do not a lock on what is and is not legal.
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  #23  
Old 11-10-2008, 4:40 PM
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Actually, east of I-5 in Lake California. Need any guns?
Welcome to the exciting world of being an FFL in California.
Checking in from Red Bluff, let me know if I can ever help you with anything.
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BTW, I handled a PPT through a 2nd dealer one time, could not firgure any other legal method.
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  #24  
Old 11-10-2008, 6:11 PM
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A "split PPT" appear to be runnable as "gun show transaction".

Calgunner/FFL 'mscale5' wrote about this year or two ago, I've appended here:

From http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...hlight=mscale5, (with a bit of reformatting from me):
If you are a CA PRIVATE PARTY and wish to sell your firearm to CA PRIVATE PARTY in another part
of the state you can have your firearm shipped to a FFL in the buyers area. Here is how you do this:
  • Take your firearm to a FFL.

  • Have (originating) FFL PRINT a DROS form for Gun Shows; he fills out the "Sellers Information" section
    of the form and make a copy of your CA DL or ID card on the back - I also ask for the sellers' thumbprint
    - and SWIPE the DL or ID, and print the info on the back of the form like for Gun Show transactions when
    a computer isn't available.

  • With this DROS filled out, the (originating) FFL can ship the firearm to the buyers' (destination) FFL and
    the (rest of the) paperwork can be filled out. To do this, the (originating) FFL must ship the firearm as verification it is the firearm that came from that person. Shipping cost should be lower then the cost of driving to do the transfer.

    This is how I was told by the DOJ to do this type of transaction.

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  #25  
Old 11-10-2008, 8:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
A "split PPT" appear to be runnable as "gun show transaction".

Calgunner/FFL 'mscale5' wrote about this year or two ago, I've appended here:

From http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...hlight=mscale5, (with a bit of reformatting from me):
If you are a CA PRIVATE PARTY and wish to sell your firearm to CA PRIVATE PARTY in another part
of the state you can have your firearm shipped to a FFL in the buyers area. Here is how you do this:
  • Take your firearm to a FFL.

  • Have (originating) FFL PRINT a DROS form for Gun Shows; he fills out the "Sellers Information" section
    of the form and make a copy of your CA DL or ID card on the back - I also ask for the sellers' thumbprint
    - and SWIPE the DL or ID, and print the info on the back of the form like for Gun Show transactions when
    a computer isn't available.

  • With this DROS filled out, the (originating) FFL can ship the firearm to the buyers' (destination) FFL and
    the (rest of the) paperwork can be filled out. To do this, the (originating) FFL must ship the firearm as verification it is the firearm that came from that person. Shipping cost should be lower then the cost of driving to do the transfer.

    This is how I was told by the DOJ to do this type of transaction.



i wish i could ask them how this gels with the ppt max fee of $35

do both ffls get $35? each
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  #26  
Old 11-10-2008, 9:00 PM
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Wow thanks for all the links and info. I guess I now can buy a non-listed handgun from a PPT no matter where in the state they are. I've been wanting a Pre-B CZ-75 but the distance just isn't worth it and too much of a headache.

I'm assuming it would still cost a fortune but if you want the non-listed ones bad enough a few bucks more is worth it.

As I read it, the seller is at the mercy of what ever it costs him to have a FFL ship it on his behalf. So say 50-60 bucks.

Then the receiving FFL charges 10 for the PPT, 25 for the DROS, and what ever made up fee he wants. Say 60-100 dollars. As long as it's not written up as a state fee/PPT fee but rather a dealer fee.

In my case say I ever found a model 1 original CZ-75 in LA, I'm up North. Driving or flying 400-500 miles round trip twice in my case I would do it since I want one so bad, since I was a kid. But doing the above mentioned procedure would save me tons of money and time.

Wouldn't have to take time off from work, lost income. Tons of Gas money and or Rental car fee's. Or say 2 round trip tickets at over 100 bucks a pop. And the hassle of checking a gun on a flight.

This wouldn't be ideal if you're worried about every little penny. But if you have to have it, why not go for it.

The only real problem is finding a FFL who will do this, and trying to educate them or get them to verify it with the DOJ.
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  #27  
Old 11-10-2008, 9:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Slayer View Post
Now this is class! Way to support the RKBA movement, not bend us over then post a thread complaining about customers asking about inventory. If you were closer, I'd be honored to buy a handgun from you.
That is too bad, it seems you have been banned. The satisfying thing is I had nothing to do with it.

I was once like Rudolf the Red. Then I realized I spend way too much time doing this crap to not make as much as I could. 10% was not worth my extra time. I would rather spend that playing video games, hunting, shooting, or just plain doing nothing.

Now I am a slave to a gun shop. A gun shop that is darn near sold out of every AR15 item I have. No joke.

Sorry, I don't have any input on split PPT. It sounded too complex and not worth the time and energy to do it. Not to mention we could figure it all out in theory and when your auditor comes in, they will write you up anyway. That is the problem with this business, you won't know you are doing something wrong until you are audited. And by then you have done it wrong 20 times.

Anyone with half a brain would sell lingerie instead for a much higher mark up and much less regulation.
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  #28  
Old 11-10-2008, 9:42 PM
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Anyone with half a brain would sell lingerie instead for a much higher mark up and much less regulation.
Do you have those leopard print thongs in stock yet?
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  #29  
Old 11-11-2008, 4:50 PM
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so how do you do this with a transfer from across state lines? say i trade one of my rifles out of state. ship from my ffl to their ffl and then the ffl sends me brand new firearm never sold to anyone to my ffl? so that would be just a transfer from ffl to ffl right?
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Old 11-12-2008, 5:20 AM
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so how do you do this with a transfer from across state lines? say i trade one of my rifles out of state. ship from my ffl to their ffl and then the ffl sends me brand new firearm never sold to anyone to my ffl? so that would be just a transfer from ffl to ffl right?
This is just a simple transfer. A simple transfer has no limit on what the receiving FFL may charge and the BOE claims it is still a retail sale and your transfer dealer should collect sales tax, but not all of them do.
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