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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles. |
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#1
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Magpul AFG on Featureless Build?
I am looking for opinions about the legality of running an AFG on a featureless build.
I think I want to give one a try, but my doubts are as follows: 1. It is advertised as a "forward grip" (ie. not a "hand rest" or "hand stop") 2. The "thumbhole" in the design What do you think? |
#2
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Well, I cant get my thumb in there nor any finger but maybe my pinky.
I can also get a firm grip around the whole triangular part and hold it like a VFG...So I decided not to use it on a pistol build.
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California Uber Alles, California Uber Alles Uber Alles California, Uber Alles California I am Governor Jerry Brown, My aura smiles and never frowns, Soon I will be President... |
#5
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I believe Magpul is currently looking on clarity from the proper agency (BATF? DOJ?) as to what the AFG is (or isn't?) classified as... until then, I would not mess with it. I like mine on my feature-full rifle though!
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#6
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Well, technique, I went ahead and bought the Magpul AFG on your words so i'll give it a review upon arrival. I couldn't pass up AIMsurplus.com's sale of 32 bucks and a penny shipping. If I don't like it there will be one up in the classifieds soon but i'm putting it on a featureless build so we'll see if it gets me in trouble or not!
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#7
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It really is a great grip...I like it a lot. Seeing a MP is looking for clarification, you may wanna wait until then. Have them spend the money or time and effort having it looked at. Save yours!
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California Uber Alles, California Uber Alles Uber Alles California, Uber Alles California I am Governor Jerry Brown, My aura smiles and never frowns, Soon I will be President... |
#8
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A "pistol grip" is pretty well defined in the CA law, and the law forbids a "forward pistol grip", but there is no extra definition for a "forward" pistol grip. Pistol grips do not have "thumbholes" in them so not sure how that is a factor. Yes, it is advertised as a "grip" but so is the TangoDown Rail Grip, which is just a rail panel that offers a textured and comfortable area to rest your hand on (sound familiar?). Also you can get a "pistol style grasp" around pretty much anything you place on a rail panel - a flashlight mount, a scope ring, a bipod leg. It's clearly not a "pistol grip" in my opinion, however.
I guess the debate will continue, but I think the fact that it is designed to rest only your fingers on it, with your thumb up on the handguard also helps in clarifying it as a NON-pistol grip - same as a MonsterMan grip in my opinion. Last edited by shark92651; 12-30-2009 at 9:04 AM.. |
#9
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BUT, before I put it on my AR pistol, I would love to see something more concrete from those with bigger brains or from Magpul
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10 +1 in the chamber |
#10
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So there's a disconnect. While it's logical that (c) would include (d), it doesn't. So a forward pistol grip is not bound by the web of the hand below the action definition. (c) just states if you can get a pistol style grasp on a GRIP mounted in front of the trigger, then it's a forward pistol grip. It specifies "grip", so things like sling mounts, bipods, light mounts are not included. The AFG is marketed and used as a grip. I would not use one on a featureless build or a pistol. Like it or not, this is a pistol style grasp using this grip:
__________________
"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed" "Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785 Last edited by Fate; 12-31-2009 at 8:01 PM.. |
#11
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#12
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Honestly hate being the wet blanket as the AFG looks good and I'm a big proponent of featureless rifles.
Further clarifying the relationship of (c) and (d), since (c) comes before (d) and makes no mention of (d)'s definitions, it's not bound by (d). (sounds like Abbot/Costello "Who's on First?" right? LOL). And since "grip" is an important element of (c), it greenlights the KAC handstop on a featureless build. Not only is it not used or marketed as any form of grip (nor can you even remotely hold the rifle with it in any form of a pistol style grasp), it's a sling mount too. There's your GTG item on a featureless build, that's very defensible in court. The AFG...not so much.
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"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed" "Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785 |
#13
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I can so easily see both sides of this argument.
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10 +1 in the chamber |
#14
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"forward pistol grip" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger. Does this also mean that a finger stop or bipod leg could also be considered a FPG? I'm not sure if the terms used in marketing a product are relevant. If Magpul called it a "comfort rest" or something like that, would that help our arguments? This stuff is maddening, the placement and shape of a simple piece of plastic on our guns is the difference between being law-abiding and being a criminal |
#15
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See pages 17-22 in the following document to see comments/responses and see how we got where we are: http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/ag...regs/fsor.pdf? (link updated 5/14/13) Full background: http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/sb23indx.php
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"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed" "Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785 Last edited by Fate; 05-14-2013 at 8:49 AM.. |
#16
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I am a yo-yo on this issue...
The web of your hand is ABOVE the exposed portion of the trigger....so the definition of a pistol style grasp doesn't fit....and your trigger hand is nowhere near the grip.....but it does "allow" for a pistol-like grip.... |
#18
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I also agree the web of your hand is above the action. I had hope the "right people" might comment because i don't want to be the test case. |
#19
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Tech has it mounted right. The hand stop part faces the business end wich I'm assuming you're calling the "Long" end. He just mounted it a little forward of the carbine rail to basically hold as much gun as he can. Often while using the thumb break technique and using a carbine rail "grabbing as much gun as you can" you will slip you're hand on the gas block/FSB and burn the crap out of you're self. He has it set up to prevent this, The grip is geared more towards people that use this type of grip. I fondled one and it truly is a improvement on the ergo's of gripping the foreguard and I didn't have much trouble with slipping even while pounding out a couple hundred rounds in Full auto on a patrol carbine "M16"
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#21
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Well I guess I will be waiting for the word to come from Magpul about these being okay for use on Featureless Rifles. I would love to use one
-Gio
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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ |
#22
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There was a pretty extensive thread on this already. Featureless is G2G. This would be like putting a MMG on the front rail- it's just smaller than the MMG.
/still waiting for that calgunner to mod an MMG to be used as a FG. Can't remember his username, but the photoshopped mock-up looked... interesting...
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#24
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No but they know what an AOW is....
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California Uber Alles, California Uber Alles Uber Alles California, Uber Alles California I am Governor Jerry Brown, My aura smiles and never frowns, Soon I will be President... |
#25
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Featureless in CA is good to go in my book. A pistol grip has to allow for a PG style grab with the web of the hand BELOW the action. The AFG does not allow this, even if your hands were HUGE, grasping it ala VFG style would still have the web of your hand above the action.
Of course this is all relating to CA law, which Magpul will most likely not give anyone a firm answer as DOJ would never give them a firm answer. The only firm answer we might get is from ATF in regards to this being used on a Pistol, in which case it can than be argued that if ATF does not considered a VFg than it is also not a VFG in CA. So right now I'd say it's g2g on CA featureless but not on Pistols. |
#26
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I still agree that it's G2G (featureless), but I wouldn't trust that the CADOJ would follow suit with whatever the ATF decides.
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#28
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you know tech's pic is very misleading. the AFG isn't designed to be held that way at all.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...gled-foregrip/ |
#29
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It doesn't matter if the pic is misleading or if it's not meant to be used that way, IT CAN BE! Nuff said, You would have a very hard time defending that in court. |
#30
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Its not so much that "its not the way its intended to be held"...its that you can.
__________________
California Uber Alles, California Uber Alles Uber Alles California, Uber Alles California I am Governor Jerry Brown, My aura smiles and never frowns, Soon I will be President... |
#32
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Anything (non-NFA) goes on a fixed, ten round magazine rifle.
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These posts are Fiction. They do not contain legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. Any resemblance to real persons are pure coincidence. These posts may pose an inhalation hazard, reading can be harmful or fatal. No statements made on this forum are meant to represent any corporate or business entity, others, or myself. Especially not myself. Stop duping answers, help expand the FAQ. Why yes, that is me in my avatar and yes, I AM wearing a life jacket. WTS Keltec P11 |
#34
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Fill the open space in the AFC. That seems to be a fix
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PM or Email me if you have questions: Jpach89@gmail.com Check out my LMT .308 AR Quote:
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#35
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I don't really think the open space is the problem, Did you not see the pic tech posted? He is not holding through the hole and holding it with a pistol grip type grasp.
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#36
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I see what your saying and I agree with you actually, Im just bringing up something that might aid in the discussion here. Doesnt a finger stop technically allow a PG style grasp too?
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PM or Email me if you have questions: Jpach89@gmail.com Check out my LMT .308 AR Quote:
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#37
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__________________
"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed" "Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785 Last edited by Fate; 01-17-2010 at 9:01 AM.. |
#38
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__________________
PM or Email me if you have questions: Jpach89@gmail.com Check out my LMT .308 AR Quote:
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#39
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You will never get a concrete answer. even with the people in the DOJ or ATF or wherever. ALl of the products produced today bring up boundries and push the limits of legal definitions/intensions/literature. You can propose this question to different people at different agencies and get a handful of different answers. You can throw it at different DAs and get different answers.
People even push the envelope when they mount BUIS on the underside of their rail for a hand stop, technically it can be gripped in the same manner that technique has shown above. NOw I know that is not what a BUIS was made for but it is the manner that it is being used and the fact is that it is being used as a FG. it is just a matter of time before somebody is the sacrifcial lamb and gets slaughtered in court by some over zealous DA or ATF agent. When in doubt... leave it out I am in the same boat and would give anything to throw the AFG on my pistol but I fell that its not worth the risk |
#40
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Pages 17-22 http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf Full background: http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/sb23indx.php If it's not a grip to begin with, I can't see how charges would be filed, let alone stick.
__________________
"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed" "Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785 |
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