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Old 11-14-2017, 12:35 PM
Dvrjon Dvrjon is online now
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Default Ammunition Law: Continuance of C&R+COE exemptions after 2019

In another thread, a poster raised the issue of whether the statute continues the C&R + COE exemptions for purchase and importation, or if they are overridden in 2019. This has come up in the past, so I thought I would make a humble effort to try to walk through the statutes and illustrate how this specific aspect of the ammunition law is expected to function. It seems that folks are confusing the dates governing one section of the Code as also applying to other actions in other sections. So, I'll take a shot at walking through this stuff to try to clarify the issues. No pride of authorship here; just a desire to try to get hold of this one aspect of the laws. Constructive helpful comments, additions, deletions, clarifications, ramifications, etc. are welcome.

Final caveat: Not a lawyer; just trying to read at the Eighth-grade level.

Here's the layout "tree" for the ammo PC: (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...icle=3.&goUp=Y)
Quote:
CHAPTER 1. Ammunition 30210-30395
ARTICLE 1. Flechette Dart Ammunition or Bullet Containing or Carrying an Explosive Agent 30210-30290
ARTICLE 2. Other Restrictions Relating to Ammunition 30300-30340
ARTICLE 3. Ammunition Vendors 30342-30365
ARTICLE 4. Ammunition Purchase Authorizations 30370-30371
ARTICLE 5. Ammunition Vendor Licenses 30385-30395
Article 2 contains "Other Restrictions Relating to Ammunition 30300-30340", and establishes that a holder of C&R license with a COE is exempt from Ammo Vendor purchase and from FTF transactions. That allows Internet and out-of-state purchase and importation. The effective date is 1/1/2018.

Section 30312 covers sales:[quote] 30312: (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...2.&lawCode=PEN)
Quote:
30312.
(a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.
(b) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale, delivery, or transfer of ownership of ammunition by any party may only occur in a face-to-face transaction with the seller….
(c) Subdivisions (a) and (b) shall not apply to the sale, delivery, or transfer of ammunition to any of the following:
(6) A person who is licensed as a collector of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, whose licensed premises are within this state, and who has a current certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 26710. {Remember Section 26710; We'll see it, again.}
Section 30314 provides comparable coverage for importation: (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=30314.)
Quote:
30314. (a)Commencing January 1, 2018, a resident of this state shall not bring or transport into this state any ammunition that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained from outside of this state unless he or she first has that ammunition delivered to a licensed ammunition vendor for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 30312.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
(5) A person who is licensed as a collector of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, whose licensed premises are within this state, and who has a current certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 26710.
So, effective 1/1/2018, holders of current C&R licenses and current California COES are exempt from the sales and importation rules of the ammunition law.

On to Vendors: "Ammunition Vendors 30342-30365"

Note that this Article is constrained to a completely different set of PC sections. Article 3 has nothing to do with the sections of Article 2, unless the statute says it does.

Article 3 provides constraints on what Ammo Vendors (Vendors) must do. The effective dates for these actions are in 2019. They have nothing to do with, and don't override the provisions of, Article 2. The confusion arises when Article 3 starts identifying to Vendors the individuals who are approved ammunition purchasers, thereby placing controls on who can purchase ammo. Section 30352: (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=30352.)
Quote:
30352. (a) Commencing July 1, 2019, an ammunition vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of any ammunition without, at the time of delivery, legibly recording the following information on a form to be prescribed by the Department of Justice: {edited for brevity}
(b) Commencing July 1, 2019, an ammunition vendor shall electronically submit to the department the information required by subdivision (a) for all sales and transfers of ownership of ammunition. {edited for brevity}
(c) Commencing on July 1, 2019, only those persons listed in this subdivision, or those persons or entities listed in subdivision (e), shall be authorized to purchase ammunition.
This section and these subdivisions don’t specifically list C&Rs as approved purchasers, so some folks think that the Article 2 provisions are lost in 2019. But, Section 30352(c) continues on (from above) to state that anyone who is an approved purchaser of ammo under Section 30370 can purchase.
Quote:
30352(c)(continued): Prior to delivering any ammunition, an ammunition vendor shall require bona fide evidence of identity to verify that the person who is receiving delivery of the ammunition is a person or entity listed in subdivision (e) or one of the following:
(1) A person authorized to purchase ammunition pursuant to Section 30370.
(d) Commencing July 1, 2019, the ammunition vendor shall verify with the department, in a manner prescribed by the department, that the person is authorized to purchase ammunition. If the person is not listed as an authorized ammunition purchaser, the vendor shall deny the sale or transfer.
(e) Subdivisions (a) and (d) shall not apply to sales or other transfers of ownership of ammunition by ammunition vendors to any of the following, if properly identified: {edited for brevity}
Which leads us to Section 30370, which authorizes specific persons to purchase ammunition: (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...r=1.&article=4.)
Quote:
30370. (a) Commencing July 1, 2019, …the following persons are authorized to purchase ammunition:
(2) A purchaser or transferee who has a current certificate of eligibility issued by the department pursuant to Section 26710.{I told you we'd be back to this.
And, to complete the circuit, Section 26710 (remember, it was laid out in the ammunition sales provisions of Article 2 (above)): (https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=26710)
Quote:
26710.
(a) A person may request a certificate of eligibility from the Department of Justice.
So, anyone with a COE will continue to be an approved purchaser after 2019. Holders of C&R + COE will continue to be exempt from the purchase/importation rules of Article 2, but if they use an ammunition vendor for a purchase/transfer, they will have to identify themselves with their COE to be deemed an approved purchaser.

I'll appreciate any further insights.

Best.
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Old 11-14-2017, 1:29 PM
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Yup.

People are also mixing into their thoughts deLeon ammo stuff that passed, but was overridden by Prop 63.
[The 'competing' law had "if X wins then X is active but otherwise..." preamble that affects chaptering.]

This is where that "you can only buy 50 rounds a month" crap began and which some gun stores are propagating.
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Old 11-14-2017, 1:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Yup.

People are also mixing into their thoughts deLeon ammo stuff that passed, but was overridden by Prop 63.
[The 'competing' law had "if X wins then X is active but otherwise..." preamble that affects chaptering.]

This is where that "you can only buy 50 rounds a month" crap began and which some gun stores are propagating.
Correct, except that it was Prop 63 that was overriden by the Legislature.
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Old 11-14-2017, 5:06 PM
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Thank you so very much for taking the time to lay that out, sincerely do appreciate the hard work.


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Old 11-14-2017, 7:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Yup.

People are also mixing into their thoughts deLeon ammo stuff that passed, but was overridden by Prop 63.
[The 'competing' law had "if X wins then X is active but otherwise..." preamble that affects chaptering.]

This is where that "you can only buy 50 rounds a month" crap began and which some gun stores are propagating.
Thx, Bill. Earlier, I tried to cover the "50 rounds" issue, here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...1&postcount=61

Best.
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Old 11-14-2017, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by hvacins View Post
Thank you so very much for taking the time to lay that out, sincerely do appreciate the hard work.
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Old 11-16-2017, 4:15 PM
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Yes, all great info but... the above illustrates why trying to find an [out of state ammo] vendor willing to play after 1/1/18 could/will be a difficult endeavor.

They don't want to be bothered with the "red tape" nuances of the law that outlines exemptions... just like when it comes to selling and shipping a C&R long gun to a CA C&R FFL holder with a COE, I'm continually shutdown by a blanket "no sales to CA" policies by sellers, and I can talk until I'm blue in the face about being able to legally receive a C&R long gun... no dice. Or local FFL's, trying to convince them that I'm exempt from the 10 day waiting period for a C&R handgun when I have a COE and the 03 FFL.

I've already approached some of the big volume internet ammo sellers that I've been dealing with for over 10 years... no CA sales/shipments after 1/1/18.

Very frustrating.
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Old 11-17-2017, 7:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunhacker View Post
Yes, all great info but... the above illustrates why trying to find an [out of state ammo] vendor willing to play after 1/1/18 could/will be a difficult endeavor.

They don't want to be bothered with the "red tape" nuances of the law that outlines exemptions... just like when it comes to selling and shipping a C&R long gun to a CA C&R FFL holder with a COE, I'm continually shutdown by a blanket "no sales to CA" policies by sellers, and I can talk until I'm blue in the face about being able to legally receive a C&R long gun... no dice. Or local FFL's, trying to convince them that I'm exempt from the 10 day waiting period for a C&R handgun when I have a COE and the 03 FFL.

I've already approached some of the big volume internet ammo sellers that I've been dealing with for over 10 years... no CA sales/shipments after 1/1/18.

Very frustrating.
I've seen well documented posts here indicating that you can't ship long guns to an 03/COE. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...8&postcount=44

27585.

(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.

27565.

(a) This section applies in the following circumstances:

(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.

(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.

(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.

(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the department in a format prescribed by the department.
(Amended by Stats. 2011, Ch. 745, Sec. 28. Effective January 1, 2012.)
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Old 11-17-2017, 9:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
I've seen well documented posts here indicating that you can't ship long guns to an 03/COE. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...8&postcount=44

27585.

(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.

27565.

(a) This section applies in the following circumstances:

(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.

(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.

(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.

(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the department in a format prescribed by the department.
(Amended by Stats. 2011, Ch. 745, Sec. 28. Effective January 1, 2012.)
The search function seems down today....

Over in C&R, most people argue that you can ship from out of state. I wish I could find find the threads where this was discussed.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
I've seen well documented posts here indicating that you can't ship long guns to an 03/COE. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...8&postcount=44



27585.



(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.



27565.



(a) This section applies in the following circumstances:



(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.



(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.



(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.



(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.



(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.



(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the department in a format prescribed by the department.

(Amended by Stats. 2011, Ch. 745, Sec. 28. Effective January 1, 2012.)


Except that you did not include 27585 Subdivision (b) which specifically exempts licensed collectors from 27585 Subdivision (a).


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Old 11-17-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by djwalker View Post
Except that you did not include 27585 Subdivision (b) which specifically exempts licensed collectors from 27585 Subdivision (a).


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The way I am reading it is that to be exempt from a) you must follow 27565.

Though again I do feel like there was a nuance somewhere else that still allows it...
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:22 AM
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Just found the post highlighting the nuance:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...5&postcount=30
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sousuke View Post
Just found the post highlighting the nuance:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...5&postcount=30
The problem (as I see it) is that the original text of AB 1609 (that created Section 27585) contained a specific exemption for collectors that complied with Section 27699. The bill was amended to have that exemption struck from the text and it does not exist in the current law. Section 27699 makes no mention of importation of firearms whereas Section 27585 is all about that. Further, Section 27699 does not explicitly exempt collectors from Section 27585.

Ignoring the very real possibility of malicious intent, my study of the record of AB 1609 leads me to conclude that it was the intention of the bill (based on the stated intent of the Legislature) NOT to interfere with the activity of licensed collectors but it seems that someone mucked it up
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:48 AM
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Default Ammunition Law: Continuance of C&R+COE exemptions after 2019

27565 is just a reporting requirement. The change in the law you are referring to added long guns to the REPORTING requirement.


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Last edited by djwalker; 11-17-2017 at 10:52 AM..
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Hinnerk View Post
The problem (as I see it) is that the original text of AB 1609 (that created Section 27585) contained a specific exemption for collectors that complied with Section 27699. The bill was amended to have that exemption struck from the text and it does not exist in the current law. Section 27699 makes no mention of importation of firearms whereas Section 27585 is all about that. Further, Section 27699 does not explicitly exempt collectors from Section 27585.

Ignoring the very real possibility of malicious intent, my study of the record of AB 1609 leads me to conclude that it was the intention of the bill (based on the stated intent of the Legislature) NOT to interfere with the activity of licensed collectors but it seems that someone mucked it up
Admittedly I wasn't looking at this closely in 2015 because I let my old FFL03 expire.

It seems to me that the legislature didn't properly tie the threads of the connecting law together and so now we have a degree of vagueness. It seems that if you are not buying physically out of state you are not subject to 27565, so the only question is, if you are not subject to 27565, does that invalidate the exemption of 27585.

It seems to me that there are thousands of people that have reported imported long guns via shipment so that also goes against CADOJ if there is an issue.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:58 AM
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Would one of our legal beagles please set this straight. Wrong (I believe) interpretations such as these are why out of state vendors won’t deal with us.


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Old 11-17-2017, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by djwalker View Post
Would one of our legal beagles please set this straight. Wrong (I believe) interpretations such as these are why out of state vendors won’t deal with us.


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Well my take is that its legal, but there has always been some disagreement if you look through old threads in the curio relic section.
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