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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 07-11-2018, 8:41 PM
DonaldBabbett DonaldBabbett is offline
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Exclamation Lifetime gun prohibition: mental health history

Under federal 'law' (Gun Control Act of 1968) those who have been committed are deprived of gun rights under the 2nd A for life.

I fail to see how this provision passes Constitutional muster.

It is socially unjust and a sin against God and nature to deprive an American citizen the right to keep and bear arms, as well as the inalienable human right to self-defense, such person who has been SICK once, institutionalized and then cured, later to be released into mainstream society, such person not even convicted of a crime, necessarily.

It is not even a crime to be sick.

The clause in the Gun Control Act of 1968 "having been committed to a mental institution" should be replaced with "while committed, and only while committed, to a mental institution" otherwise the Gun Control Act of 1968 should be repealed in its entirety.

Once a person is lawfully released from a mental institution into mainstream American society, his/her full rights should be automatically restored under the Bill of Rights immediately.
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Old 07-11-2018, 9:02 PM
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Asking for a friend?
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Old 07-11-2018, 9:09 PM
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as stated by some dude on cgn "if they're not safe enough to own guns, they're not safe enough to be on the street. "
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Old 07-11-2018, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by superdave50 View Post
as stated by some dude on cgn "if they're not safe enough to own guns, they're not safe enough to be on the street. "
That's precisely my philosophy. The Gun Control Act of 1968 was drafted by a bunch of idiots. The language in it is horrible yet the ATF heeds it as if it were Gospel.

I am contacting my US elected officials, including the President, about this right now.

I am hoping my thread here will INSPIRE others to do the same.

Activisim is most effective when a number of people are involved.

Who needs to march on Washington with signs when we have the Internet.
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Old 07-11-2018, 9:23 PM
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Asking for a friend?
Pardon?
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Old 07-11-2018, 9:26 PM
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we're not authorized to issue pardons. Take it up with the head janitor
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Old 07-11-2018, 9:42 PM
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Pardon?
Huh? I didn't say anything.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:19 PM
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Huh? I didn't say anything.
Your friend?
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:53 PM
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Your friend?
Oh my God, you can see him too?
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Old 07-12-2018, 8:09 AM
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Originally Posted by DonaldBabbett View Post
Under federal 'law' (Gun Control Act of 1968) those who have been committed are deprived of gun rights under the 2nd A for life.

I fail to see how this provision passes Constitutional muster.
It didn't pass muster in the 6th:

Quote:
Thus, we conclude that Tyler has a viable claim under the Second Amendment and that the government has not justified a lifetime ban on gun possession by anyone who has been “adjudicated as a mental defective” or “committed to a mental institution,” 18 U.S.C.§ 922(g)(4).
http://www.opn.ca6.uscourts.gov/opin...6a0234p-06.pdf
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Old 07-12-2018, 8:12 AM
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Originally Posted by DonaldBabbett View Post
Under federal 'law' (Gun Control Act of 1968) those who have been committed are deprived of gun rights under the 2nd A for life.

I fail to see how this provision passes Constitutional muster.

It is socially unjust and a sin against God and nature to deprive an American citizen the right to keep and bear arms, as well as the inalienable human right to self-defense, such person who has been SICK once, institutionalized and then cured, later to be released into mainstream society, such person not even convicted of a crime, necessarily.

It is not even a crime to be sick.

The clause in the Gun Control Act of 1968 "having been committed to a mental institution" should be replaced with "while committed, and only while committed, to a mental institution" otherwise the Gun Control Act of 1968 should be repealed in its entirety.

Once a person is lawfully released from a mental institution into mainstream American society, his/her full rights should be automatically restored under the Bill of Rights immediately.
Tend to agree, who is more deserving of a God given Right then someone who thinks he is God or that God tells him to do things.
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Old 07-12-2018, 9:32 AM
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I have to ask the logical question: "If arrested for possession of a firearm due to a lifetime ban for mental health, wouldn't be wise to claim insanity?"
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Old 07-12-2018, 5:22 PM
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I have to ask the logical question: "If arrested for possession of a firearm due to a lifetime ban for mental health, wouldn't be wise to claim insanity?"
No, just cite this in one's defense:

http://www.opn.ca6.uscourts.gov/opin...6a0234p-06.pdf


Lifetime prohibition does not pass constitutional muster and the federal courts are seemingly starting to come to that conclusion. Once crazy, not crazy for life. If you are sane enough to be out on the streets you are sane enough to have a gun as far as I am concerned.
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  #14  
Old 07-12-2018, 5:31 PM
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Is this another copied and pasted email from the GOA?
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Old 07-12-2018, 6:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle View Post
Is this another copied and pasted email from the GOA?
No, it's my own exclusive words:

"Lifetime prohibition does not pass constitutional muster and the federal courts are seemingly starting to come to that conclusion. Once crazy, not crazy for life. If you are sane enough to be out on the streets you are sane enough to have a gun as far as I am concerned."
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Old 07-12-2018, 6:21 PM
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Y'all may have heard about the D's and their "Abolish ICE" nonsense. They even introduced a bill to abolish ICE.

So an R from California said he is going to bring that bill to the floor for a vote. That's pretty smart, I think, because it will force the mainstream Ds to choose between the extreme insanity of their left wing and all those mainstream voters back home. If they are on record voting like some socialist nutjob in these times of tight election margins in critical states, it will give their R opponents some ammunition with which to attack them.

So this issue (lifetime ban for mentally ill) is very similar. I'd like to see SCOTUS grant cert, because it will put the medical profession into a similar bind. We all know the AMA is a silly mouthpiece org for the extreme left, and we also know their endless denials about the mentally ill being dangerous. So if SCOTUS grants cert to Tyler, they'll have to choose -- an expansion of gun rights (albeit a small one) vs an admission that the mentally ill are simply too dangerous to be trusted.
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Old 07-12-2018, 6:43 PM
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Originally Posted by speedrrracer View Post
So this issue (lifetime ban for mentally ill) is very similar. I'd like to see SCOTUS grant cert, because it will put the medical profession into a similar bind. We all know the AMA is a silly mouthpiece org for the extreme left, and we also know their endless denials about the mentally ill being dangerous. So if SCOTUS grants cert to Tyler, they'll have to choose -- an expansion of gun rights (albeit a small one) vs an admission that the mentally ill are simply too dangerous to be trusted.
Is the AMA (American Medical Association) or the APA (American Psychological Association), which must justify a public policy banning an entire class of persons from possessing firearms?
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Old 07-12-2018, 6:53 PM
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Oh my God, you can see him too?
That's crazy!
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Old 07-12-2018, 7:00 PM
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Old 07-12-2018, 7:21 PM
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Is the AMA (American Medical Association) or the APA (American Psychological Association), which must justify a public policy banning an entire class of persons from possessing firearms?
I think I originally misunderstood you -- hopefully now I understand. I'm not trying to imply either one must justify any public policy, I'm assuming the AMA will, reflexively, file an amicus brief, and I'm wondering on which side they will land.
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Old 07-13-2018, 2:17 PM
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I think I originally misunderstood you -- hopefully now I understand. I'm not trying to imply either one must justify any public policy, I'm assuming the AMA will, reflexively, file an amicus brief, and I'm wondering on which side they will land.
It is unclear if one, both, or none of those professional associations (and lobby groups) is lobbying for restricting firearms ownership. If they are, they must offer, in a brief or proposed legislation, a principled and medically supportable justification for why, for example, persons with fear of water or insomnia should not possess a weapon (of any kind).
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Old 07-13-2018, 2:35 PM
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Might not be fair but not a problem for most.
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Old 07-13-2018, 2:49 PM
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Asking for a friend?
LOL
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Old 07-13-2018, 2:59 PM
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A example could be vets suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. After proper therapy being capable of having rights restored after adjudication.
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Old 07-13-2018, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sarabellum View Post
It is unclear if one, both, or none of those professional associations (and lobby groups) is lobbying for restricting firearms ownership. If they are, they must offer, in a brief or proposed legislation, a principled and medically supportable justification for why, for example, persons with fear of water or insomnia should not possess a weapon (of any kind).
A little poking around and it became very clear very quickly that the AMA is lobbying for restricting firearms ownership.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...olence-n882681

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Support any bans on the purchase or possession of guns and ammunition by people under 21.
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Old 07-13-2018, 4:04 PM
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I believe government chose not to appeal Tyler. I could be wrong but I could have sworn I read that somewhere.
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Old 07-13-2018, 4:12 PM
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I believe government chose not to appeal Tyler. I could be wrong but I could have sworn I read that somewhere.
I'm not sure about it's status.

http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files...united-states/

says: "Jun 27 2018 DISTRIBUTED for Conference of 6/27/2018."

Well, that was a coupla weeks ago, and no updates, so maybe it's been dropped or something as you mentioned
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Old 07-13-2018, 4:22 PM
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I'm not sure about it's status.

http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files...united-states/

says: "Jun 27 2018 DISTRIBUTED for Conference of 6/27/2018."

Well, that was a coupla weeks ago, and no updates, so maybe it's been dropped or something as you mentioned
You are right. Looks like it's still active.

I'm VERY curious to see what happens. I wonder if it was held all this time because one of the judges knew Kennedy was on his way out.

edit: oops that looks like it's the wrong tyler case
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Old 07-13-2018, 8:17 PM
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Did I grab the wrong case? Sigh -- sorry for misleading
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Old 07-16-2018, 7:11 PM
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The ban has no practical effect at least in California, the background check doesn't access anything from mental health records.
Confirmed from a friend...
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Old 07-16-2018, 7:25 PM
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The ban has no practical effect at least in California, the background check doesn't access anything from mental health records.
Confirmed from a friend...
That is because CA doesn't submit those records to NICS as they are supposed to do.
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Old 07-16-2018, 7:41 PM
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A example could be vets suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. After proper therapy being capable of having rights restored after adjudication.
You don’t lose your rights to firearms because you have PTSD.
You don’t lose them if you have a psychiatric decompensation with PTSD.
You don’t lose them if you have a psychiatric decompensation with PTSD while intoxicated and threaten to kill yourself.

You lose them when you get decompensated to the point of violence and are at such risk that you are not only placed on a hold and brought to the ER but are then placed in a psychiatric hospital.

That’s a very high bar of mental illness and it’s only applicable to the mentally ill who are violent (to themselves or others), not those admitted because they can’t care for themselves. >99.9% of the mentally ill will never reach that point. The majority of those that do are not safe having access to firearms.

“If they’re safe to be on the streets, they’re safe to have a gun” is silly. I think many people with violent histories can be paroled, but I don’t want them armed. I don’t want to arrest people getting drunk, they shouldn’t be armed (and most states prohibit this).

There are a lot of areas of the 2A that make sense to push for. Waving a banner to arm the severely mentally ill is a fool’s game. You’ll split the pro-2A crowd let alone anyone on the fence.
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Old 07-16-2018, 7:56 PM
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You lose them when you get decompensated to the point of violence and are at such risk that you are not only placed on a hold and brought to the ER but are then placed in a psychiatric hospital.

That’s a very high bar of mental illness and it’s only applicable to the mentally ill who are violent (to themselves or others), not those admitted because they can’t care for themselves. >99.9% of the mentally ill will never reach that point. The majority of those that do are not safe having access to firearms.
[/QUOTE]

Or a family member lies and the police believe it...
Again confirmed from a friend...
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Old 07-16-2018, 8:10 PM
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You lose them when you get decompensated to the point of violence and are at such risk that you are not only placed on a hold and brought to the ER but are then placed in a psychiatric hospital.

That’s a very high bar of mental illness and it’s only applicable to the mentally ill who are violent (to themselves or others), not those admitted because they can’t care for themselves. >99.9% of the mentally ill will never reach that point. The majority of those that do are not safe having access to firearms.
Quote:
Or a family member lies and the police believe it...
Again confirmed from a friend...
Then your friend isn't telling the whole story. A police officer can get someone in the door of a psych facility, but what happens after that is completely out of their hands.
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:23 PM
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You don’t lose your rights to firearms because you have PTSD.
You don’t lose them if you have a psychiatric decompensation with PTSD.
You don’t lose them if you have a psychiatric decompensation with PTSD while intoxicated and threaten to kill yourself.

You lose them when you get decompensated to the point of violence and are at such risk that you are not only placed on a hold and brought to the ER but are then placed in a psychiatric hospital.

That’s a very high bar of mental illness and it’s only applicable to the mentally ill who are violent (to themselves or others), not those admitted because they can’t care for themselves. >99.9% of the mentally ill will never reach that point. The majority of those that do are not safe having access to firearms.

“If they’re safe to be on the streets, they’re safe to have a gun” is silly. I think many people with violent histories can be paroled, but I don’t want them armed. I don’t want to arrest people getting drunk, they shouldn’t be armed (and most states prohibit this).

There are a lot of areas of the 2A that make sense to push for. Waving a banner to arm the severely mentally ill is a fool’s game. You’ll split the pro-2A crowd let alone anyone on the fence.
^^^ Thanks for some common sense. I'm wondering about this crowd...apparently many can't think of a way to show their support for rights & freedom except "Guns are for everybody...even if it endangers others."
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Old 07-17-2018, 6:33 AM
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.
I agree with you here. There really are some folks who shouldn't have access to guns... I can think of a few I've known personally
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Old 07-17-2018, 7:40 AM
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IMHO the bar needs to be set very, very high in order to deprive someone of a constitutional right. The person should either have been convicted of a violent felony, or be currently forced to stay in a mental institution by a panel of judges. And when that person is released and declared to be a safe person, their gun rights should be restored.
There are no other constitutional rights(religion, speech?) that our society tries to take away due to mental illness. RTKBA is either a civil right or it's not. We can't have it both ways.
Mental illness has a stigma that no other illness has. Yet easily 99% of people with this are not a danger to others. Mental illness is misunderstood, because it makes most people uneasy to discuss and deal with. I served as a volunteer for 4 years at a local hospital where I assisted with groups of such people on a regular basis. For the most part they look and act just like the rest of us, especially when they regularly take their meds and keep up with their grooming, shaving, etc. It was not in the least like the Cuckoos Nest movie of long ago. Not even once did I feel in danger of physical attack.
I truly believe the stigma around such people is based on fear, and that this fear is rooted in the awareness that that any one of us could someday find ourselves in the same position that these people are in. As much as we'd prefer otherwise, none of us are in full control of what happens to our world.
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  #38  
Old 07-17-2018, 7:50 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
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Talk to your local reps about making sure that the mentally ill have access to firearms? Good luck with that.
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Old 07-17-2018, 8:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNameThanks View Post

“If they’re safe to be on the streets, they’re safe to have a gun” is silly.
Not nearly as silly as claiming that "once mentally ill, forever so"
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Old 07-17-2018, 8:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonaldBabbett View Post
Pardon?
Doubt you'll get one.
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