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  #1  
Old 02-14-2017, 8:16 AM
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Default Non NFA Shotgun Mess is Silly

All this about Non NFA Shotgun is a bunch of mess. What is the point? If you want a pistol grip shotgun get the Remington Version.* It has a Pistol grip, Speedfeed LE Forend, 18.5" Barrel and Remington LE two shot Extension. It is about 28" long. So you are about a 1.5" longer then all this ridiculous Non NFA mess and have a 6+1 Capacity shotgun. Add the fact that if you buy it before March 5, 2017 you get a $50 rebate and the gun is less then $300. Don't get caught up in all this silliness of Non NFA shotgun as this silly mess has been around since 2010. Get a gun that is perfectly legal no matter what ATF decides about the Issue.
SSI_24984.jpg
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Last edited by aippi; 02-14-2017 at 8:54 AM..
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Old 02-14-2017, 8:34 AM
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Huh?
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Old 02-14-2017, 8:42 AM
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I am with you OP. In CA the non-NFA shotguns firearms are still illegal anyhow. Anything that chambers a shotgun shell with under 18" barrel is SBS here.

Good tip on the $50 rebate, might have to keep my eye out for one I do like that Shockwave Raptor birdshead grip though, I'd probably run one of those instead of the pistol grip.

When I move to a free state I will have a Super Shorty and also a real SBS with proper stock, and of course a sawed off coach gun. Gonna cost me some $$ in stamps but oh well.

For now, the KSG is the smallest thing going that we can own in CA and still shoulder. And this Remington you posted is legal here.
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Old 02-14-2017, 8:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superhondaz50 View Post
Huh?
https://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590-shockwave/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...fa-scattergun/

http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88
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Old 02-14-2017, 11:43 AM
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How many doofuses are going to become instant felons by slapping a shoulder stock on their new Mossberg Shockwaves? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands?
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Old 02-14-2017, 12:08 PM
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Mitch. I was told by an ATF Agent that you don't have to put a shoulder stock on one of these. If you simply shoulder it to fire it you have just committed a Felony. Being I have never seen one I don't know if it is even possible to shoulder it. Can that even be done? If so, then like you ask, how long before there is an arrest at some range because someone shooting one of these shouldered it, if that is possible?
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Old 02-14-2017, 1:20 PM
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Is the shockwave CA legal?
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Old 02-14-2017, 1:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aippi View Post
Mitch. I was told by an ATF Agent that you don't have to put a shoulder stock on one of these. If you simply shoulder it to fire it you have just committed a Felony. Being I have never seen one I don't know if it is even possible to shoulder it. Can that even be done? If so, then like you ask, how long before there is an arrest at some range because someone shooting one of these shouldered it, if that is possible?
Same BS with Sig Braces
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Old 02-14-2017, 1:49 PM
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Meh, push the envelope as far as we can.

But yeah, nobody needs military style assault weapons and high capacity clips.
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Old 02-14-2017, 1:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckhandmike View Post
Is the shockwave CA legal?
No. Anything that chambers a shotgun shell and has a barrel less than 18", is considered a Short Barrel Shotgun in CA.

But in CA, you can put the Raptor grip on a shotgun with 18" barrel, if the OAL is 26" or longer.


http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...0.&lawCode=PEN

Quote:
17180.
As used in this part, "short-barreled shotgun” means any of the following:
(a) A firearm that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(b) A firearm that has an overall length of less than 26 inches and that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(c) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(d) Any device that may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive.
(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...5.&lawCode=PEN

Quote:
33215. Except as provided in Sections 33220 and 33225 and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.
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  #11  
Old 02-14-2017, 3:41 PM
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What's silly is that I can't have a shotgun because I'm not allowed to pay the silly tax that I'm perfectly willing to pay.
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Old 02-14-2017, 3:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Big D View Post
What's silly is that I can't have a shotgun because I'm not allowed to pay the silly tax that I'm perfectly willing to pay.
You can put any factory built cruiser on form 1 in California as an AOW.
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Old 02-14-2017, 3:53 PM
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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=82693

Enjoy
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  #14  
Old 02-15-2017, 3:23 AM
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Trying to move some Remingtons, huh?




Sometimes, a couple small changes can make a big difference in ergos & handling. If I were living elsewhere, I might pick one up. I seen mention of dealer prices around the $325 range. It's too bad you can't still mount a bayonet on there, but I could take it as is.

"Get a gun that is perfectly legal no matter what ATF decides about the Issue."

They've already decided: These types of Nottashotguns have been around for years, they're legal now and always have been. (Local laws may vary, of course.)
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Old 02-15-2017, 8:49 AM
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Originally Posted by superhondaz50 View Post
The party may be over for those. Myself and others have recently had Form 3 AOW transfers denied by ATF, at the direction of CA DOJ. They may also deny form 1 to CA residents now.

Plus, all the penal codes in that 9 year old thread, do not exist now. It has been renumbered. The cited exemption for AOW [12020(b)(8)] is gone. The only exemptions now seems to be for law enforcement (33220) and those with a CA DOJ permit (33225).

And the exemptions for C&R SBS also seems to have vanished. It is possible that all the folks who have those AOWs and the lucky ones who had C&R SBS, are in violation now.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:21 AM
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How about this New for 2017: Fostech Origin 12 SBV Non-NFA "Firearm" ?

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Old 02-15-2017, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aippi View Post
Mitch. I was told by an ATF Agent that you don't have to put a shoulder stock on one of these. If you simply shoulder it to fire it you have just committed a Felony. Being I have never seen one I don't know if it is even possible to shoulder it. Can that even be done? If so, then like you ask, how long before there is an arrest at some range because someone shooting one of these shouldered it, if that is possible?
Well, it's a bird's head grip, so it can't be shouldered. And even so, there aren't really bands of Federal agents roaming the firing lines of shooting ranges looking to arrest people for shouldering AOWs or whatever.

The problem occurs when you have put a stock on your Mossberg Shockwave and then cops enter your home for any reason (domestic disturbance call, naughty roommate, fire or natural disaster, etc) and they find the weapon. Or you are transporting it home from the range and get pulled over for speeding or whatever. Bang!

This has been the reality for Californians for over 15 years: pick up a folding or pistol grip stock at the gun show, take it home and put it on your Mini-14, and you have committed a felony. It's nice for Mossberg to extend this potential for unwitting serious deep **** to the rest of the country.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa View Post
How about this New for 2017: Fostech Origin 12 SBV Non-NFA "Firearm" ?

If the question is whether or not this is bad ***, the answer is yes. It's super badass.

If the question is in regards to legality; federally? Yes. State of CA? Absolutely illegal.
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Old 02-15-2017, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
The party may be over for those. Myself and others have recently had Form 3 AOW transfers denied by ATF, at the direction of CA DOJ. They may also deny form 1 to CA residents now.

Plus, all the penal codes in that 9 year old thread, do not exist now. It has been renumbered. The cited exemption for AOW [12020(b)(8)] is gone. The only exemptions now seems to be for law enforcement (33220) and those with a CA DOJ permit (33225).

And the exemptions for C&R SBS also seems to have vanished. It is possible that all the folks who have those AOWs and the lucky ones who had C&R SBS, are in violation now.
You are correct on the PC change, that thread is just a start.

Current PC for reference:

PC 17710, 16590, 31500, 17270, 33215, & 17180.


Penal Code 17710
(a) The provisions listed in Section 16590 do not apply to "any other weapon" as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code, which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the weapons under the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

Penal Code 16590
As used in this part, "generally prohibited weapon" means any of the following:
(t) A short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun, as prohibited by Section 33215.
(v) An unconventional pistol, as prohibited by Section 31500.

Penal Code 31500
Except as provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any unconventional pistol is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.

Penal Code 17270
As used in this part, an "unconventional pistol" means a firearm with both of the following characteristics:
(a) It does not have a rifled bore.
(b) It has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Penal Code 33215
Except as provided in Sections 33220 and 33225 and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.

Penal Code 17180
As used in this part, "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(a) A firearm that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(b) A firearm that has an overall length of less than 26 inches and that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(c) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(d) Any device that may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive.
(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

Form 1's are still being approved.
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Old 02-15-2017, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omgwtfbbq View Post
If the question is whether or not this is bad ***, the answer is yes. It's super badass.

If the question is in regards to legality; federally? Yes. State of CA? Absolutely illegal.
I was thinking more in terms of the title "Non NFA Shotgun Mess is Silly"

Yes pretty bad ***, but a silly damn mess.
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Old 02-15-2017, 1:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa View Post
I was thinking more in terms of the title "Non NFA Shotgun Mess is Silly"

Yes pretty bad ***, but a silly damn mess.
Indeed. I wonder if Fostech has/will ever make an 18" barrel, shoulder stocked version. At least pre 2017 that would have been legal with a magazine lock, I believe. Perhaps even presently with the DOJ removing their request for regulations that would have changed the AW definition to include shotguns.
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Old 02-15-2017, 3:10 PM
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...or just get a Firearms trust and pay the tax stamp and get one of these:



shhh...cause even us in CA can do that!
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Old 02-15-2017, 3:20 PM
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Thank you for the new PCs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by superhondaz50 View Post
You are correct on the PC change, that thread is just a start.

Current PC for reference:

PC 17710, 16590, 31500, 17270, 33215, & 17180.


Penal Code 17710
(a) The provisions listed in Section 16590 do not apply to "any other weapon" as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code, which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the weapons under the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

Penal Code 16590
As used in this part, "generally prohibited weapon" means any of the following:
(t) A short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun, as prohibited by Section 33215.
(v) An unconventional pistol, as prohibited by Section 31500.

Penal Code 31500
Except as provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any unconventional pistol is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.

Penal Code 17270
As used in this part, an "unconventional pistol" means a firearm with both of the following characteristics:
(a) It does not have a rifled bore.
(b) It has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Penal Code 33215
Except as provided in Sections 33220 and 33225 and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.

Penal Code 17180
As used in this part, "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(a) A firearm that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(b) A firearm that has an overall length of less than 26 inches and that is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(c) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(d) Any device that may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive.
(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

Form 1's are still being approved.
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Old 02-15-2017, 3:23 PM
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Quote:
...Form 1's are still being approved.
Form 3's are not...I and several others got shot down (no pun intended) trying to AOW S&W Governors and Taurus Judges. CADOJ told ATF that they are considered SBS's in CA, period. So the ATF rejected the applications.

LGS is trying to work it out, but it doesn't look promising. Been fighting with them for over a year.
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Old 02-15-2017, 3:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911su16b870 View Post
...or just get a Firearms trust and pay the tax stamp and get one of these:



shhh...cause even us in CA can do that!
You don't need a firearms trust anymore, CLEO sign off on AOW application is not required anymore for individuals, effective July 2016.

And that shorty you have posted would have to be DROSd as a pistol, and roster exempt unless the buyer was roster exempt, which means 'single shot bolt action'. Sort of a gray area for a pump - if you know of a FFL who will do it, let me know.

Now myself and others have tried to Form 3 transfer in single action pistols (Judges/Givernors) that were also AOW, and the ATF denied those very recently - within the past 2 months. Even after a noted firearms attorney got involved.

I would like to hear from someone who has had a FORM 1 approved since about Sept 2016.
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Old 02-15-2017, 8:03 PM
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I have a feeling your getting the run around since it's a judge
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Old 02-15-2017, 9:10 PM
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So now C&R SBS's are no longer exempt?
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa View Post
How about this New for 2017: Fostech Origin 12 SBV Non-NFA "Firearm" ?

Previous thread on this topic (Fostech Origin 12 SBV)
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  #29  
Old 02-15-2017, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jl7422 View Post
So now C&R SBS's are no longer exempt?
C&R SBS are still exempt. [PC 17705(a)]

But, problem is finding C&R SBS.

Per BATFE...
Taking a C&R shotgun and making it into a SBS, voids it's C&R status and makes it a "modern" SBS.
In order to be a C&R SBS, it had to be made into a SBS 50+ years ago or be listed on the BATFE C&R list as a C&R SBS.
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Last edited by Quiet; 02-15-2017 at 10:39 PM..
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  #30  
Old 02-16-2017, 5:46 AM
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So, does anyone have any other info on denials for other forms (1 or 4)? Maybe they're only getting their panties in a bunch about the form 3 dealer to dealer, it's a very curious issue. Maybe it's time to submit a form 1 for something to test it, to see if it's just Judge's they don't like. Maybe a 50bmg pistol as a DD.
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Old 02-16-2017, 5:16 PM
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I feel the pain of anyone living in the Unamerican territory of California where the rights of every living thing on the planet are protected with the full force of the state government, well except the 2nd amendment rights of you guys. I can hardly keep up with your approval list and have not a clue about the NFA stuff out there. But reading this peeked my curiosity as to why the Judge is not simply a pistol since the barrel has rifling. Will stay tuned for a response as there are some guys here that really know the NFA and CA DOJ stuff.
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  #32  
Old 02-16-2017, 9:25 PM
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The judge meets California's definition of a short barreled shotgun. It becomes exempt once registered as an aow.
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Old 02-16-2017, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aippi View Post
But reading this peeked my curiosity as to why the Judge is not simply a pistol since the barrel has rifling.
Under Federal laws/regulations...

Taurus Judge is a Title 1 Handgun.

Title 1 Handgun because it has a rifled barrel, no shoulder stock, and overall length of less than 26".


Under CA laws/regulations...

Taurus Judge is both a "handgun" and a SBS.
^This applies to all handguns that are chambered in .45LC/.410.

A firearm can be classified as a "handgun" and a SBR/SBS, if it meets the definitions of them. [PC 16530(b)]

It is a "handgun" because it is a firearm with a less than 16" barrel length. [PC 16530(a)]

It is a SBS because it is a firearm that can shoot shotgun shells & has a less than 18" barrel length [PC 17180(a)] and is a firearm that can shoot shotgun shells & has a less than 26" overall length [PC 17180(b)].

A firearm that is classified as a Title 2 AOW under Federal laws, is exempt from CA SBR/SBS/unconventional handgun laws. [PC 17710(a)]
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Old 02-17-2017, 7:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aippi View Post
Mitch. I was told by an ATF Agent that you don't have to put a shoulder stock on one of these. If you simply shoulder it to fire it you have just committed a Felony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
Same BS with Sig Braces
This is inconsistent with my understanding of the argument made with the sig braces. (Doesn't mean I'm right, it would just mean the sig brace determination isn't as sensible as I thought it was.)

My understanding was not that "shouldering the gun made it an SBR/SBS" it was that "shouldering the gun was evidence that you put the brace (which is suspiciously stock-like) on there with the intent of it being a stock and with the intent of it being a firearm that was fired from the shoulder" which is the actual thing you're not supposed to do.

If you just take some random gun and hold it against your shoulder awkwardly, the above doesn't apply.
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Old 02-17-2017, 9:59 AM
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Thanks Quiet. So I get it now. They use the Chambering as an excuse to further deny you guys your rights. Your DOJ sure put a lot of effort into this approval list. If they would put as much effort into fighting crime as they do screwing you guys over, CA would be the safest state in the Union. However, I'm sure gang bangers and thieves would never use a gun in a crime that was on the restricted list as that could really get them in trouble.
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  #36  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champu View Post
This is inconsistent with my understanding of the argument made with the sig braces. (Doesn't mean I'm right, it would just mean the sig brace determination isn't as sensible as I thought it was.)

My understanding was not that "shouldering the gun made it an SBR/SBS" it was that "shouldering the gun was evidence that you put the brace (which is suspiciously stock-like) on there with the intent of it being a stock and with the intent of it being a firearm that was fired from the shoulder" which is the actual thing you're not supposed to do.

If you just take some random gun and hold it against your shoulder awkwardly, the above doesn't apply.
Under the current BATFE determination...
A Title 1 Handgun with an arm stabilizing brace being used as intended (braced along the shooting hand's forearm) does not change the classification of the Title 1 Handgun.
A Title 1 Handguns with an arm stabilizing brace being used as not intended (such as being shouldered) changes the classification to a Title 2 SBR.
SIG and other arm stabilizing brace manufacturers support the current BATFE determination.


Under CA laws/regulations...
Some DA's Offices have concluded that installing an arm stabilizing brace onto a handgun makes it a SBR/SBS, because they contend that installation is proof of the person redesigning the firearm to be fired from the shoulder.
^CA DOJ is silent on this issue and has let all 58 DA's Office to come up with their own determination.
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Last edited by Quiet; 02-17-2017 at 10:16 PM..
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  #37  
Old 02-18-2017, 2:42 PM
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I have a Shockwave blade on my AR pistol. It works pretty well. They do make a good product.
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