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  #41  
Old 02-15-2017, 2:23 PM
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Quote:
...Form 1's are still being approved.
Form 3's are not...I and several others got shot down (no pun intended) trying to AOW S&W Governors and Taurus Judges. CADOJ told ATF that they are considered SBS's in CA, period. So the ATF rejected the applications.

LGS is trying to work it out, but it doesn't look promising. Been fighting with them for over a year.
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  #42  
Old 02-15-2017, 2:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911su16b870 View Post
...or just get a Firearms trust and pay the tax stamp and get one of these:



shhh...cause even us in CA can do that!
You don't need a firearms trust anymore, CLEO sign off on AOW application is not required anymore for individuals, effective July 2016.

And that shorty you have posted would have to be DROSd as a pistol, and roster exempt unless the buyer was roster exempt, which means 'single shot bolt action'. Sort of a gray area for a pump - if you know of a FFL who will do it, let me know.

Now myself and others have tried to Form 3 transfer in single action pistols (Judges/Givernors) that were also AOW, and the ATF denied those very recently - within the past 2 months. Even after a noted firearms attorney got involved.

I would like to hear from someone who has had a FORM 1 approved since about Sept 2016.
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  #43  
Old 02-15-2017, 7:03 PM
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I have a feeling your getting the run around since it's a judge
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  #44  
Old 02-15-2017, 8:10 PM
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So now C&R SBS's are no longer exempt?
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  #45  
Old 02-15-2017, 9:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa View Post
How about this New for 2017: Fostech Origin 12 SBV Non-NFA "Firearm" ?

Previous thread on this topic (Fostech Origin 12 SBV)
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  #46  
Old 02-15-2017, 9:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jl7422 View Post
So now C&R SBS's are no longer exempt?
C&R SBS are still exempt. [PC 17705(a)]

But, problem is finding C&R SBS.

Per BATFE...
Taking a C&R shotgun and making it into a SBS, voids it's C&R status and makes it a "modern" SBS.
In order to be a C&R SBS, it had to be made into a SBS 50+ years ago or be listed on the BATFE C&R list as a C&R SBS.
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Last edited by Quiet; 02-15-2017 at 9:39 PM..
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  #47  
Old 02-16-2017, 4:46 AM
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So, does anyone have any other info on denials for other forms (1 or 4)? Maybe they're only getting their panties in a bunch about the form 3 dealer to dealer, it's a very curious issue. Maybe it's time to submit a form 1 for something to test it, to see if it's just Judge's they don't like. Maybe a 50bmg pistol as a DD.
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  #48  
Old 02-16-2017, 4:16 PM
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I feel the pain of anyone living in the Unamerican territory of California where the rights of every living thing on the planet are protected with the full force of the state government, well except the 2nd amendment rights of you guys. I can hardly keep up with your approval list and have not a clue about the NFA stuff out there. But reading this peeked my curiosity as to why the Judge is not simply a pistol since the barrel has rifling. Will stay tuned for a response as there are some guys here that really know the NFA and CA DOJ stuff.
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  #49  
Old 02-16-2017, 8:25 PM
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The judge meets California's definition of a short barreled shotgun. It becomes exempt once registered as an aow.
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  #50  
Old 02-16-2017, 9:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aippi View Post
But reading this peeked my curiosity as to why the Judge is not simply a pistol since the barrel has rifling.
Under Federal laws/regulations...

Taurus Judge is a Title 1 Handgun.

Title 1 Handgun because it has a rifled barrel, no shoulder stock, and overall length of less than 26".


Under CA laws/regulations...

Taurus Judge is both a "handgun" and a SBS.
^This applies to all handguns that are chambered in .45LC/.410.

A firearm can be classified as a "handgun" and a SBR/SBS, if it meets the definitions of them. [PC 16530(b)]

It is a "handgun" because it is a firearm with a less than 16" barrel length. [PC 16530(a)]

It is a SBS because it is a firearm that can shoot shotgun shells & has a less than 18" barrel length [PC 17180(a)] and is a firearm that can shoot shotgun shells & has a less than 26" overall length [PC 17180(b)].

A firearm that is classified as a Title 2 AOW under Federal laws, is exempt from CA SBR/SBS/unconventional handgun laws. [PC 17710(a)]
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  #51  
Old 02-17-2017, 6:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aippi View Post
Mitch. I was told by an ATF Agent that you don't have to put a shoulder stock on one of these. If you simply shoulder it to fire it you have just committed a Felony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
Same BS with Sig Braces
This is inconsistent with my understanding of the argument made with the sig braces. (Doesn't mean I'm right, it would just mean the sig brace determination isn't as sensible as I thought it was.)

My understanding was not that "shouldering the gun made it an SBR/SBS" it was that "shouldering the gun was evidence that you put the brace (which is suspiciously stock-like) on there with the intent of it being a stock and with the intent of it being a firearm that was fired from the shoulder" which is the actual thing you're not supposed to do.

If you just take some random gun and hold it against your shoulder awkwardly, the above doesn't apply.
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  #52  
Old 02-17-2017, 8:59 AM
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Thanks Quiet. So I get it now. They use the Chambering as an excuse to further deny you guys your rights. Your DOJ sure put a lot of effort into this approval list. If they would put as much effort into fighting crime as they do screwing you guys over, CA would be the safest state in the Union. However, I'm sure gang bangers and thieves would never use a gun in a crime that was on the restricted list as that could really get them in trouble.
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  #53  
Old 02-17-2017, 9:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champu View Post
This is inconsistent with my understanding of the argument made with the sig braces. (Doesn't mean I'm right, it would just mean the sig brace determination isn't as sensible as I thought it was.)

My understanding was not that "shouldering the gun made it an SBR/SBS" it was that "shouldering the gun was evidence that you put the brace (which is suspiciously stock-like) on there with the intent of it being a stock and with the intent of it being a firearm that was fired from the shoulder" which is the actual thing you're not supposed to do.

If you just take some random gun and hold it against your shoulder awkwardly, the above doesn't apply.
Under the current BATFE determination...
A Title 1 Handgun with an arm stabilizing brace being used as intended (braced along the shooting hand's forearm) does not change the classification of the Title 1 Handgun.
A Title 1 Handguns with an arm stabilizing brace being used as not intended (such as being shouldered) changes the classification to a Title 2 SBR.
SIG and other arm stabilizing brace manufacturers support the current BATFE determination.


Under CA laws/regulations...
Some DA's Offices have concluded that installing an arm stabilizing brace onto a handgun makes it a SBR/SBS, because they contend that installation is proof of the person redesigning the firearm to be fired from the shoulder.
^CA DOJ is silent on this issue and has let all 58 DA's Office to come up with their own determination.
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Last edited by Quiet; 02-17-2017 at 9:16 PM..
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  #54  
Old 02-18-2017, 1:42 PM
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I have a Shockwave blade on my AR pistol. It works pretty well. They do make a good product.
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  #55  
Old 05-01-2017, 6:32 PM
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Default mossberg shockwave

are they cali legal?

http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590-shockwave/
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  #56  
Old 05-01-2017, 6:32 PM
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No, several threads on this

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...php?p=19623746

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...php?p=19670198
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  #57  
Old 05-01-2017, 6:33 PM
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tha ks for the link.
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  #58  
Old 05-17-2017, 10:32 AM
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Default Mossberg 590 Shockwave 12ga 14" - legal in California? NO - CA says it's an SBS

Is this legal to own in California?
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  #59  
Old 05-17-2017, 10:45 AM
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From another post:

Under CA laws...
A firearm that shoots shotgun shells and has a barrel length of less than 18" is a SBS. [PC 17180(a)]
A firearm that shoots shotgun shells and has an overall length of less than 26" is a SBS. [PC 17180(b)]
A firearm that is made from a shotgun and has a barrel length of less than 18" or has an overall length of less than 26" is a SBS. [PC 17180(c)]

Therefore...
If the firearm that shoots shotgun shells has a barrel length of 18" or greater and an overall length of 26" or greater, then it is CA legal.
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  #60  
Old 05-17-2017, 11:36 AM
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What about the Any Other Weapon (AOW) thing? I've seen shotguns with way shorter barrels legally sold in CA.
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  #61  
Old 05-17-2017, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickleplatedbrass View Post
Mossberg 590 Shockwave 12ga 14" - legal in California?

Is this legal to own in California?
Under Federal laws...

It is classified as a Title 1 Other (no shoulder stock + less than 16" barrel length + greater than 26" overall length).


Under CA laws...

It is classified as a SBS (firearm that shoots shotgun shells and has a less than 18" barrel length).

In order to legally acquire/possess a SBS in CA, you need a valid CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBS.

CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permits (DWP) require a good cause for issuance.
Per CA laws, there are only two valid good causes for issuance for a DWP for SBR/SBS: [PC 33300(a)]
1. To import/make/transfer to Gov/Mil/LE agencies. [PC 33300(b)(2)]
2. For use as a prop in the entertainment industry (movie/tv). [PC 33300(b)(1)]

In addition to paying an annual fee to maintain the DWP, the DWP holder is subject to annual compliance inspection audits.

All dangerous weapons in the DWP holder's inventory needs to be registered with CA DOJ.
All locations where the dangerous weapons will be stored needs to be registered with CA DOJ.
All vehicles that will be used to transport the dangerous weapons needs to be registered with CA DOJ.

Storing in a non-registered location and/or transporting in a non-registered vehicle is grounds for permit revocation and having the entire inventory confiscated.

Using the dangerous weapon beyond the scope of the good cause for issuance of the permit is grounds for permit revocation and having the entire inventory confiscated.
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  #62  
Old 05-17-2017, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keith1911 View Post
What about the Any Other Weapon (AOW) thing? I've seen shotguns with way shorter barrels legally sold in CA.
Under CA laws/regulations...

Title 2 AOW are exempt from CA SBR/SBS laws and CA unconventional pistol laws.
Title 2 AOW are not exempt from CA assault weapons laws and CA unsafe handgun laws.

A firearm with a barrel length of less than 16" is considered a "handgun".
Since Title 2 AOW are considered "handguns" and there are no Title 2 AOW listed on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale, Title 2 AOW can only be transferred via exemption (LEO sale, PPT, SAE, SSE2).
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  #63  
Old 05-18-2017, 4:27 AM
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What I want to know is how this thing becomes a non NFA weapon with a 14" barrel? The only thing different on it, is it has some kind of goofy club looking grip on it, instead of the usual pistol grip. How does a change in grip alone knock it off the NFA list with a 14" barrel? They both have "pistol grips" on them.
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  #64  
Old 05-18-2017, 4:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billt View Post
What I want to know is how this thing becomes a non NFA weapon with a 14" barrel? The only thing different on it, is it has some kind of goofy club looking grip on it, instead of the usual pistol grip. How does a change in grip alone knock it off the NFA list with a 14" barrel? They both have "pistol grips" on them.
Under Federal laws/regulations...

Title 1 Shotgun = firearm with a smoothbore barrel and shoulder stock.

Title 2 SBS = firearm with a smoothbore barrel length of less than 18" and an overall length of less than 26".

Title 2 AOW = firearm with a smoothbore barrel length of less than 16" and an overall length of less than 26".

Because the firearm has an overall length of greater than 26", it does not meet the Federal definition of a Title 2 SBS or a Title 2 AOW.

Because the firearm does not have a shoulder stock, it does not meet the Federal definition of a Title 1 Shotgun.

Therefore, the firearm is classified as a Title 1 Other.
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  #65  
Old 06-04-2017, 12:50 PM
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I just saw a post that Anderson will be selling a 458 Socom AR upper for $80 MSRP.
This mixed with new laws plus new arm brace definition has me wondering...
How would a homemade 26.1" smoothbore 458 Socom with an arm brace work within the law?
458 cases are not "shotgun shells"
But I guess you can load them similat to a shotgun? Maybe a mixed size buck/round ball?
Just crazy ideas that coming to mind with all this cool stuff.
Lol.
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  #66  
Old 06-10-2017, 6:35 PM
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Default I'm sure not legal in ca (14” Mossberg Shockwave again - CA SBS)

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/non...hot-show-2017/
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  #67  
Old 06-10-2017, 7:11 PM
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Many threads on this, the answer is no - not legal in CA.
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  #68  
Old 06-10-2017, 10:03 PM
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Under Federal laws...

It is classified as a Title 1 Other (no shoulder stock + less than 16" barrel length + greater than 26" overall length).


Under CA laws...

It is classified as a SBS (firearm that shoots shotgun shells and has a less than 18" barrel length). [PC 17180(a)]

In order to legally acquire/possess a SBS in CA, you need a valid CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBS.

CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permits (DWP) require a good cause for issuance.
Per CA laws, there are only two valid good causes for issuance for a DWP for SBR/SBS: [PC 33300(a)]
1. To import/make/transfer to Gov/Mil/LE agencies. [PC 33300(b)(2)]
2. For use as a prop in the entertainment industry (movie/tv). [PC 33300(b)(1)]

In addition to paying an annual fee to maintain the DWP, the DWP holder is subject to annual compliance inspection audits.

All dangerous weapons in the DWP holder's inventory needs to be registered with CA DOJ.
All locations where the dangerous weapons will be stored needs to be registered with CA DOJ.
All vehicles that will be used to transport the dangerous weapons needs to be registered with CA DOJ.

Storing in a non-registered location and/or transporting in a non-registered vehicle is grounds for permit revocation and having the entire inventory confiscated.

Using the dangerous weapon beyond the scope of the good cause for issuance of the permit is grounds for permit revocation and having the entire inventory confiscated.


Previous threads on this topic...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1335477
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1330851
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Last edited by Quiet; 06-10-2017 at 10:05 PM..
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  #69  
Old 06-13-2017, 4:00 PM
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All this stuff is so stupid. We have shot shells for all calibers, and sabot rifled barrels for shotguns. Whats the difference between a 45lc shot shell and a .410? They both are centerfire shot shell cartridges? Both blow a snake or bird away? Just saying....?
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  #70  
Old 06-13-2017, 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by cjbalzer View Post
All this stuff is so stupid. We have shot shells for all calibers, and sabot rifled barrels for shotguns. Whats the difference between a 45lc shot shell and a .410? They both are centerfire shot shell cartridges? Both blow a snake or bird away? Just saying....?
Because Commiefornia. Don't even try to apply logic or reasoning. Your head will explode and you will wish this wretched excuse of an American state (lol) falls into the abyss of the San Andreas Fault.
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  #71  
Old 06-13-2017, 8:26 PM
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After looking at the pictures of that, I can't imagine any useful purpose for that whatsoever. What does that do that a Maverick security model does not do. I can imagine it would be very difficult to control as well
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  #72  
Old 06-15-2017, 11:55 AM
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Not legal. We got a special bulletin sometime ago about these.
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  #73  
Old 06-15-2017, 3:13 PM
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I had questions about that a few months back, visited a LGS and they had a "hot off the presses" CA DOJ memo, complete with pictures and cites informing CA FFLs it was an SBS. They put it in the same category as the Bond Derringer 45/410 and the Taurus Judge with the caveat that the Judge was also a shotgun with a rotating cylinder. The gun in question was some sort of Remington 870 that the manufacturer didn't label as a "shotgun" and the intent, IIRC, was to have it be an AOW - was 26.5" OAL.
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  #74  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SandHill View Post
Wow, Quiet, that was quite the definitive answer! I guess the short version is "no"?

Just for grins, can you tell us how easy it would be to buy one of these in a free state? I am guessing fill out a form, get automatically approved and pay a $5 tax stamp? Please twist the knife a little bit, it hurts so good.

I can walk in my local shop, show my ID, and walk out in under an hour, no fees paid. There are no fees or extras I have to pay for it being essentially an AOW.
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Old 07-02-2017, 4:18 PM
NationsMostWanted NationsMostWanted is offline
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Anybody own the shockwave raptor grip on their 18.5 mossberg 500, what's the overall length on it after? Compared to normal stock
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:16 AM
Jnbr19867 Jnbr19867 is offline
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...So can an LEO (say a deputy sheriff) legally buy and own a mossberg shockwave, or does he also need to have a CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit?

I'm asking for a LEO friend.

Thanks!
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Old 07-16-2017, 1:45 PM
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Quiet Quiet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jnbr19867 View Post
...So can an LEO (say a deputy sheriff) legally buy and own a mossberg shockwave, or does he also need to have a CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit?

I'm asking for a LEO friend.

Thanks!
Because CA considers it a SBS, if the LEO wants to own it and use it for personal use, then the LEO needs a CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBS.

The only LE exemption is when a LE agency acquires (owns) it and issues it to one of their LEOs for use while on-duty and in the performance of their duties. [PC 33220]
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Old 07-22-2017, 4:34 PM
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"... Constitutional rights would become meaningless if states could obliterate them by enacting incrementally more burdensome restrictions while arguing that a reviewing court must evaluate each restriction by itself when determining constitutionality.”
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Old 07-22-2017, 4:52 PM
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It would seem that the obvious solution to protecting your Constitutional rights, is to stay the hell out of California. Body, soul, firearms, and just about everything else you can think of.
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