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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles. |
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__________________
True wealth is time. Time to enjoy life. Life's journey is not to arrive safely in a well preserved body, but rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "holy schit...what a ride"!! Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in. Mark Twain A man's soul can be judged by the way he treats his dog. Charles Doran |
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in your opinion, is it worth the extra coin?
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and the weight too? (if I recall many, MANY threads on impingement vs. piston here)
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And much less recoil/flip when shooting rapid fire/full auto. It is a much more pleasurable shooting experience.
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********************* WTS: 1. PW 800+ Hydro Multispeed (just the hydraulic unit that also works with Spolar press) 2. PW 800B converted to 800C (12 gauge) with lots of accessories and upgrades 3. Hornady 366 (12 gauge) Last edited by Jet Setter; 03-21-2013 at 11:52 PM.. |
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OP you asked if the added cost of a GP upper is worth it. Personally I don't think so if you just lube your BCG and use good magazines the DI gun will run like a champ. I owned a LWRC M6A3 and while it was a cool gun I sold it and built 2 DI guns YMMV. |
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Gas piston AR's have MORE perceptible recoil than Direct Impintment AR's.
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Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
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I'll be nice and say at most that is speculation and everyone has their own opinion.
But if you want to talk about real world and not about how the average CGNer shoots 200 rounds through whatever AR he has at the local shooting range then immediately after spends 3 hours cleaning it, the fact is, your just in the wrong forum. The success of the AR (DGI system) so far ahead of a GPU it isn't even funny, it is comparing a champian fighter to an amatuer. Real world talk, the furthest I've heard a DGI AR has ever been taken was by EAG Tactical to 50,000 rounds. The furthest I've ever heard a GPU get taken was 19,000 rounds, it was an LWRC and it broke. It didn't need a cleaning, the parts didn't wear out, it frickin broke. And unlike a standard AR, you can only take a GPU AR to one company to get it fixed, the manufacturer. GPU's failed in the 60's, they failed in the 80's and while they have found some success now, they are slowly bleeding. The panic buying pumped more life into them, but they are going away. Bottom line is nothing is perfect, most problems are operator error, and no design is going to fix operator errors. You should be more worried about how to use your guns, not what guns will be "magical". |
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The filthiness of the DI system and the bad effects that this has on the entire operating system of the M16A1 is a military legend. No one will ever know how many GIs lost their lives due to the jamming of these rifles caused by the filth that quickly builds up from firing them. The Army adapted and the M16 eventually became a competent firearm because the troops were required to become rifle cleaning fanatics. But this does not change the fact that the DI system, quite frankly, is sub-optimal. To the average Calgunner, what a DI system means is a lot of rifle cleaning after each shooting outing. Nothing wrong with that, and personally I enjoy cleaning my weapons, at least in easy doses. When I got my first piston AR rifle I was quite literally astounded at how clean the rifle was after I put several hundred rounds through it. I will never again own a DI rifle. Anyone who knows anything about engineering knows that everything is a trade-off in designing most anything, especially firearms. The piston system generally does involve a bit more weight towards the front of the weapon. This may or may not be an issue with a given shooter. Looking at all the stuff I see hanging on the front of the ARs at the range, I have to say that this does not seem to be much of an issue to most of my fellow shooters. And it is a small price to pay for a well-designed, clean-functioning rifle.
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Come and Take It! I'm the only hell my momma ever raised ... |
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I have attached two articles that refute the point. 1. The Big M4 Myth: āFouling caused by the direct impingement gas system makes the M4/M4A1 Carbine unreliable.ā 2. Keep Your Carbine Running (attached) by Pat Rogers. |
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Come and Take It! I'm the only hell my momma ever raised ... |
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Nothing like maintaining an open mind, especially to those with expertise that exceeds your own...
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they feel that the wear and tear from over cleaning combined with improper lubrication was most likely to have been a root cause of issues for your era than any "issues" with the DI gas system. So, while I believe you that there were issues, the root cause may not have been the DI gas system. just food for thought. you would have to root around m4 carbine dot net to find this discussion over there. |
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On the other hand, I've always found it interesting that most rifles in military service today seem to be piston operated, there doesn't seem to be many other DI rifles in military service aside from the M16 family of rifles. But that doesn't necessarily mean anything, after all, the Europeans do tend to like doing things differently than us. In regards to someone saying that the Marine Corps adopted the HK416, that's only partly true. The Corps did adopt the 416 but only as a squad level replacement for the SAW and not as a replacement for their M16s. There are some rumors that it's a back door means of getting a new carbine but that's still just a rumor for now and to the best of my knowledge, the Corps has no interest in issuing carbines for most troops preferring to stick to rifles for their longer range.
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"Gone to Florida to fight the Indians. Will be back when the war is over." Colonel Commandant Archibald Henderson, USMC in a note pinned to his office door, 1836 "We have two companies of Marines running rampant all over the northern half of this island, and three Army regiments pinned down in the southwestern corner, doing nothing. What the hell is going on?" Gen. John W. Vessey Jr., USA, Chairman of the the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the assault on Grenada, 1983 |
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Riceball, there is much to what you say. I will say that my own experiences with the M16 occurred just post-Vietnam. There is no getting around the way the DI process stresses the bolt carrier group. But you are right; the Army and Marines adapted their field maintenance procedures and made other changes and the M16 became an effective combat rifle in spite of (not because of) the DI system it employs.
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Come and Take It! I'm the only hell my momma ever raised ... |
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Umm I would stick with google.. there has got to be numerous threads where this has been hashed out.
DI has worked in the AR platform since day one. AKs are piston. The piston system is heavier then a DI system Piston systems run cleaner in the lower and upper no hot dirty gas. It probably isn't worth the extra 500 but it's a matter of preference and opinion. What kind of piston system are you looking into ? A conversion or factory direct? and
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NRA Member The Constitution does not bestow wisdom. It's up to the body politic to be wise. -Patriot All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke I'd much rather go to my grave never needing my gun, than go there wishing I had it. - Phil Dalmolin The Battle of Athens was illegal too. |
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I have one of each. A DI AR rifle by BCM and a Piston AR rifle by POF.
Piston is more reliable but heavier, good for sbr's. DI is more accurate and lighter, good for dmr's. For accuracy, I prefer my DI AR rifle. Out of the box i was shooting 1" groups @ 100 yrs bench rest with iron sights. I also feel that my DI AR shoots a little "softer" compared to my piston AR. I read the article posted by BCM on their torture test only using Slip2000 and never cleaning the rifle. The rifle was wiped with a rag once at about 19k round count, and continued to shoot well past the 23k count. Bottom line, the DI AR platform has been around for over six decades. It is a proven design. It is the most accurate general military service rifle in the world. If you take care of the DI AR by cleaning it regularly, it will take care of you. I like Piston AR's but they are too heavy and pricey. Unless i have to deploy to an area that is likely to experience sand storms, the extra cost of buying a piston upper is just not worth it. |
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Why would the piston affect the accuracy of the weapon? It doesn't seem logical to me. Also, would you buy an AR right now, or with to see how the gun laws change? Thanks, Frank
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Buy an AR. DI vs GP for a civilian is splitting hairs just get one and decide for yourself. Going DI has its advantages like parts commonality I guess most people won't go through even high wear parts like the barrel in their lifetime. Like previously stated if your having issues with a quality DI gun its probably operator error like improper maintenance schedules, lack of lubrication, or out of spec mags. |
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gas being blown directly into the action parts and fouling them rather quickly. Bottom line: Piston systems stay clean and reliable longer than DI systems. |
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Here's two 14.5 carbines. With the exception of the Spikes lower on the DI AR, there are no cheap parts here. DI AR has a Noveske MUR1a upper with a BCM BHF mid length socom profile barrel.
Untitled by Starsnuffer, on Flickr Which do you think is more accurate? I'll give you a hint, it isn't the DI gun. Which do you think weighs less? I'll give you a hint, it isn't the DI gun. Which do you think has less recoil? That depends on which comp you like. The battlecomp has negative recoil (pushes down slightly). Which is smoother? It's the DI gun, but that's because it has an adjustable gas block and light (JP) action spring. It won't shoot anything but m855 or hotter unless I retune the gas, in which case it stops shooting smoother. -W |
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I have both GP and DI. I like shooting both but I prefer GP. The Marines just opted to use the HK416, will it prove to be better? I dont know, i just think that GP it's going anywhere. In fact, i think it will improve. Don't get me wrong, DI is proven and it served me well when I was active duty but if I had a choice I would go piston all the way. Like everyone else have said it's reliable, runs cool, and easy as hell to clean. Test drive both and see what fits your needs best. Just my .02......
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The bolt carrier and upper receiver of the AR is not designed to function with an operating rod, which nearly every upper advertised as a gas piston on the market uses. Companies offering gas piston AR15 rifles have made some work arounds on the carriers to attempt to keep the BCG from beating up the upper receiver, but eventually, they just wear out.
You see, when the rod pushes on the face of the carrier it tilts the rear of the carrier downward. Most companies have enlarged the back of the carrier to help eliminate most of this tilt, but they can not elimiate it entierly and now all of that downward pressure is in your (relatively week) buffer tube. The real problem however, is that pressure is applied to the bolt lugs unevenly and the bolt attempts to unlock under this uneven pressure. This eventually leads to lugs breaking and uneven bolt/chamber wear. Nealry every gas psiton unit on the market will eventually suffer from this under extended or hard use. There is one piston unit that I have had the pleasure of handling that alleviates these problems. The carrier rides in rails elimintaing the uneven lug pressure and carrier tilt. The entire upper receiver and carrier have been re-designed. This makes it more expensive however, as the parts are unique to that system. It is the most reliable piston design I have seen yet and the short stroke sytem it uses should not increase perceived recoil any more than a gas impigment system. Then again, it is no longer an AR15, but a whole new rifle designed to drop onto an AR15 lower. Last edited by chicoredneck; 03-22-2013 at 10:44 AM.. |
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This has been hashed out so many times. Unless you're regularly shooting suppressed on full auto with a barrel less than 14.5", there is no need for a piston gun over a DI gun. Also, parts and maintenance-- there is no uniform manufacturing standard w/piston guns while with a DI gun you can pretty much interchange parts from any manufacturer because all the reputable makers follow the TDP. And, you still have to maintain and clean a piston gun. The HK 416 is a fine weapon, but even it has its drawbacks (and for the record, the MR556 is NOT a 416 and certainly not worth its price tag, IMO). For what most civvie shooters will do over here, a DI gun will more than adequately serve your needs. Keep it properly lubed and maintained and I guarantee you that you will have zero reliability issues with a quality DI gun.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother-- Henry V Last edited by SIGSHOOTR; 03-22-2013 at 10:41 AM.. |
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I have shot both and like both. I say get what you want, but when looking at your budget, take into consideration that ammo, mags, slings, lights, training etc all cost money as well. |
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The Vickers article is good. I like to read & have checked out tons of Articles about DI vs Piston. I have only shot 2 piston AR's & while I liked them, I do like what I've had/have also.
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Yes I took the pic, no I didn't go swimming! |
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A lot of fanboys on the errornet read something and regurgitate it with absolutely no hands on experience whatsoever.
Listen to the people that have owned both, or at the very least ran them. Here's my $.02: 1) the piston is only slightly heavier, you probably wouldn't notice. 2) the piston does recoil a little more. (I have a2 flash hiders on both my rifles, it's noticeable). 3) the pistons bcg stays a lot cleaner and cooler than the di. 4) the pistons hand guard gets hotter than the di's after long strings of continuos fire. 5) the di needs to be ran wet. With the piston, it's not as much of a concern to function reliably. 6) pistons are more expensive. If you can afford it, buy what ever system that you like. It's your money! They both run well. The only time I wouldn't consider a di gun is if I was going shorter than 14.5" or running a can. |
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If Kalashnikov designed DI system.......
Well, AK wouldn't exist and neither would he (maybe his skeleton somewhere near former Siberian labor camp). |
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LOL!
__________________
Come and Take It! I'm the only hell my momma ever raised ... |
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I believe this is asked more than how to clear herps on google...
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You "closing" statement does not add to your credibility. |
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