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  #1  
Old 04-13-2017, 6:32 PM
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Default LE selling their Off Roster HG

Have heard several news reports that ATF and DOJ are cracking down on lawn force meant officers selling their use of roster guns. Has anybody heard any updates or information about recent crackdowns ?
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Old 04-13-2017, 7:03 PM
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"Lawn force" LOL
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Old 04-13-2017, 7:14 PM
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So assuming you mean law enforcement officers, and not lawn force, I'm not sure why atf would give a rat's hind end, about someone selling used firearms, I'm sure that happens every single day. I also don't know what Ca law would be in question selling off roster guns, since as far as I know that is perfectly legal. In fact I just bought an off roster Colt last month.
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Old 04-13-2017, 8:12 PM
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I will say this and only this. I commented in a thread with similar information. Please understand that I/we will not provide much more. Yes the ATF will prosecute officers who are operating as an ffl or making straw purchases for "off roster" firearms. They sent an admonishment sometime within the recent past. Outside of that you need to contact the ATF about further information
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Old 04-13-2017, 8:15 PM
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I've heard through the grapevine that it's becoming a big deal and that they're trying to close the loophole.

Here's an article from today: http://www.dailynews.com/general-new...-growing-trend

Last edited by splaturn; 04-13-2017 at 8:18 PM..
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Old 04-13-2017, 8:22 PM
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Quote:
Have heard several news reports that ATF and DOJ are cracking down on lawn force meant officers selling their use of roster guns. Has anybody heard any updates or information about recent crackdowns ?
My gardener can do what ever he wants. I don't call him my lawn force tho.
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Old 04-13-2017, 8:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splaturn View Post
I've heard through the grapevine that it's becoming a big deal and that they're trying to close the loophole.

Here's an article from today: http://www.dailynews.com/general-new...-growing-trend
Thanks for the news clip.... and yes Law Enforcement
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Old 04-13-2017, 8:44 PM
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If ATF is concerned about people selling off roster guns at a profit, they had better never look at the marketplace here. That would be a target rich environment.
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Old 04-13-2017, 9:10 PM
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P5Ret.. not really a target rich environment.. remember there is the California Off Roster Premium Index.. also don't forget in the waning days of SSE2 that a lot of guns were horded in the event of emergency monies and sales..


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  #10  
Old 04-13-2017, 10:17 PM
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shouldn't it be illegal for LEO to sell unsafe handguns?
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  #11  
Old 04-13-2017, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saym14 View Post
shouldn't it be illegal for LEO to sell unsafe handguns?
Define "unsafe" handgun?
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Old 04-14-2017, 2:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Rogue187 View Post
Define "unsafe" handgun?
"Any handgun not approved on the CA DOJ Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale."
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Old 04-14-2017, 5:40 AM
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So you mean the Extortion list?


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  #14  
Old 04-14-2017, 6:31 AM
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$1200 XDS anyone?
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  #15  
Old 04-14-2017, 7:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saym14 View Post
shouldn't it be illegal for LEO to sell unsafe handguns?
No more so than anyone else who wants to sell an off roster or as you say "unsafe" handgun. Never mind that there are probably more off roster handguns in private hands then there are on roster guns.
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Old 04-14-2017, 7:47 AM
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I don't get what all the hoopla is. ATF is just making sure we are doing the right thing and said to knock it off if we aren't. It doesn't prevent us from selling off roster firearms they just made it clear we cannot do it for profit and if they see too many sales of off roster firearms they are going to investigate it.
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Old 04-14-2017, 7:59 AM
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They even said in their letter their goal is education and prevention from future abuses. They aren't going after anyone at this stage. As long as you aren't operating as an unlicensed dealer, the ATF does not care about CA's dumb roster.
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  #18  
Old 04-14-2017, 8:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue187 View Post
So you mean the Extortion list?
Yup!

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Old 04-14-2017, 9:39 AM
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And if cops are buying guns only they can buy to make money off other people, they are jerks. Since the law says one can only sell a small number of firearms per year as a non-dealer, then I have zero problem with them getting their due.
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  #20  
Old 04-14-2017, 9:47 AM
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I don't recall an exemption to the 5 pistol sale transactions per year for peace officers. It doesn't apply to rifles. How would that be any different than a private person selling off their collection for profit? People need money for things.

I can see why ATF would get involved because the roster exemption creates an opportunity for an "unlicensed" dealer type of selling. That's also no different than Interstate-Intrafamilial transfers being sold via PPT.

Still, the CA limit of 5 pistol sale transactions per year apply. Granted, exempts can purchase as many off-roster as they want and could technically have "stock" to sell or multiple "unsafe" pistols transferred to a single individual per transaction where the I-I PPT would at max have 12 per year of stock via that exemption given the 1 in 30 law, but still have the ability to transfer multiple pistols per transaction the following year.

Same thing, just much slower for one. Well, unless you're CA's definition of a "lesser" cop. Those folks are stuck with their pistols.

Anyone know the transition process for NV or AZ POST with CA POST credentials?

Last edited by anbu_yoshi; 04-14-2017 at 10:32 AM..
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  #21  
Old 04-14-2017, 10:11 AM
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No more $2,000 never fired BNIB Sig Legions for you.
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  #22  
Old 04-14-2017, 10:18 AM
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No more $2,000 never fired BNIB Sig Legions for you.
Haha. Right.
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  #23  
Old 04-14-2017, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowdrop View Post
They even said in their letter their goal is education and prevention from future abuses. They aren't going after anyone at this stage. As long as you aren't operating as an unlicensed dealer, the ATF does not care about CA's dumb roster.
Exactly, if your just buying with the ultimate goal of flipping the gun for a profit that's where the issue lies.
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Old 04-15-2017, 3:07 PM
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Let see: we have a handgun roster, a renewed AW law, and higher gas taxes/DMV fees coming. I cannot wait till retirement and leave the state of my birth.
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  #25  
Old 04-15-2017, 5:20 PM
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[QUOTE=jc0311;19962645]Exactly, if your just buying with the ultimate goal of flipping the gun for a profit that's where the issue lies.[/QUOT

The ATF does not care about the LEO that has had a back-up for a year or so and decides to sell it for a profit in order to buy a different back-up.

The problem is the obvious flagrant violation involving the LEO who goes down to Pro Force and walks out with three NIB Sig Legions and sells three NIB Legions the following week. That person has technically become a gun dealer without a FFL license.

Mark my word, if this continues, the legislature will remove the LEO exemption for off-roster guns unless the LEO can provide a letter from the head of their department authorizing the purchase for "official duties."

What gets me is a guy making well over $100,000 a year in his day job as a LEO, who has a pension worth millions would risk it all to make an extra $500-$600 on a gun sale. For God's sake work 5 or 6 hours of overtime if you need $500-$600 bucks and quit violating your oath.
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Old 04-15-2017, 7:39 PM
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[QUOTE=indy78;19968499]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc0311 View Post
Exactly, if your just buying with the ultimate goal of flipping the gun for a profit that's where the issue lies.[/QUOT


What gets me is a guy making well over $100,000 a year in his day job as a LEO, who has a pension worth millions would risk it all to make an extra $500-$600 on a gun sale. For God's sake work 5 or 6 hours of overtime if you need $500-$600 bucks and quit violating your oath.
This. I find if mind boggling that someone would risk a good job and pension to make a few bucks especially if blatant and on many occasions.
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Old 04-15-2017, 8:02 PM
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Lots of LAPD guys were buying Kimbers at a discount from them and reselling after just a few days. Big internal investigation but haven't even heard of a wrist being slapped or ATF getting involved.
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:39 PM
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The example they give in the article is a guy selling over 100 guns. That's pretty blatant.


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  #29  
Old 04-16-2017, 8:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
If ATF is concerned about people selling off roster guns at a profit, they had better never look at the marketplace here. That would be a target rich environment.
Most people in the marketplace except for LE don't have access to a steady stream of desirable off roster in production handguns. A notable exception is people that have a parent, grandparent or child residing out of state and willing to send them guns via a CA FFL.

I don't think ATF even cares if you make a profit or even lose money they just don't like people acting like a FFL but not being one. Remember this is also a violation of CA law too in most circumstances if over a certain amount of PPT sales are done a year.
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Old 04-16-2017, 1:49 PM
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[QUOTE=indy78;19968499]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc0311 View Post
Exactly, if your just buying with the ultimate goal of flipping the gun for a profit that's where the issue lies.[/QUOT

The ATF does not care about the LEO that has had a back-up for a year or so and decides to sell it for a profit in order to buy a different back-up.

The problem is the obvious flagrant violation involving the LEO who goes down to Pro Force and walks out with three NIB Sig Legions and sells three NIB Legions the following week. That person has technically become a gun dealer without a FFL license.

Mark my word, if this continues, the legislature will remove the LEO exemption for off-roster guns unless the LEO can provide a letter from the head of their department authorizing the purchase for "official duties."

What gets me is a guy making well over $100,000 a year in his day job as a LEO, who has a pension worth millions would risk it all to make an extra $500-$600 on a gun sale. For God's sake work 5 or 6 hours of overtime if you need $500-$600 bucks and quit violating your oath.
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Old 04-20-2017, 3:02 AM
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I know an lapd swat guy that got hammered for selling his Kimber.
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Old 04-20-2017, 6:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
I know an lapd swat guy that got hammered for selling his Kimber.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may...d-fbi-20130525

That was something out of the realm of "reasonable".

I think that specific situation has specific evidence to prove intent, where a single LEO selling 1 or 2 of his off roster guns is another matter.




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Old 04-20-2017, 7:57 AM
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I went to the Proforce in Brea yesterday and saw the letters posted there.
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Old 04-20-2017, 7:59 AM
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DELETED
I don't understand this. I was working patrol during the 1992 riot and tried to protect the people and properties. How did I behave?

Last edited by Kestryll; 04-30-2017 at 11:12 PM..
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Old 04-20-2017, 8:56 AM
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I went to the Proforce in Brea yesterday and saw the letters posted there.
I'm headed to proforce today to........pick up some equipment...........
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Old 04-20-2017, 9:46 AM
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DELETED
I was there and the only thing I saw was a bunch of LEOs and FFs from all across the state comport themselves with professionalism, respect for property, and going out of their way to help their fellow citizens.

I have to wonder if you were even there, or are you just jawboning about what you saw on TV from the comfort of your easy chair?

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  #37  
Old 04-21-2017, 4:38 AM
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I was active duty military assigned in SoCal when the 92 riots happened. There were lots of areas being vandalized and looted for several hours that did not get any law enforcement response. Many people were left to fend for them selves. There just wasn't enough LEOs to cover the affected areas. Some areas were real danger if one was Asian. There was an on scene news reporter wondering where law enforcement was. My relatives said they called 911 so many times to report gun fire where they live but never got a hold of live 911 operator. I'm not bashing our LEOs for when large proportion of lawlessness happens there is not enough police to go around. It takes time for the National Guard to mobilize. The best thing you can do as an armed law abiding citizen is hold your grounds and team up with other law abiding armed citizens.

I agree LEOs shouldn't be higher class citizens with privileges of buying off roster handguns for personal use. The law says no more than 5 transactions of handgun sales per year for everyone. The law does not say you can't sell for profit. The law doesn't say you can't sell a gun that wasn't fired. If an LEO contacts an OP of WTB off roster handgun and makes a deal with him of a sale of such off roster handgun 30+ days later, that officer just broke the law. The handgun roster created this problem! It's time to get rid of the roster!
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  #38  
Old 04-21-2017, 9:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTROKS View Post
I was active duty military assigned in SoCal when the 92 riots happened. There were lots of areas being vandalized and looted for several hours that did not get any law enforcement response. Many people were left to fend for them selves. There just wasn't enough LEOs to cover the affected areas. Some areas were real danger if one was Asian. There was an on scene news reporter wondering where law enforcement was. My relatives said they called 911 so many times to report gun fire where they live but never got a hold of live 911 operator. I'm not bashing our LEOs for when large proportion of lawlessness happens there is not enough police to go around. It takes time for the National Guard to mobilize. The best thing you can do as an armed law abiding citizen is hold your grounds and team up with other law abiding armed citizens.

I agree LEOs shouldn't be higher class citizens with privileges of buying off roster handguns for personal use. The law says no more than 5 transactions of handgun sales per year for everyone. The law does not say you can't sell for profit. The law doesn't say you can't sell a gun that wasn't fired. If an LEO contacts an OP of WTB off roster handgun and makes a deal with him of a sale of such off roster handgun 30+ days later, that officer just broke the law. The handgun roster created this problem! It's time to get rid of the roster!
I think most cops would agree that the rosters is stupid and is nothing more than a political stunt for liberals, who know nothing about guns, to look tough on gun control. At the same time I certainly take advantage of my exemption and buy off roster just like I buy "hi cap" mags. I buy them for me though.

I don't think the ATF will be coming after us for trading a half dozen guns, even for profit. Not saying it's right, and I certainly don't agree with it, but the ATF is more looking for the bigger fish to fry. At least that's the impression I got when I read the letter they put out.
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Old 04-21-2017, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by GI Combat View Post
DELETED

Holy heck... Did you just watch the LA Riots 25 years later documentaries and get all emotional?

So much bias in those.

Last edited by Kestryll; 04-30-2017 at 11:11 PM..
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Old 04-21-2017, 11:30 AM
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ATF is mostly looking at the officers who buy large numbers of off roster guns and then resells them..almost immediately..
DROS will show the dates..

Some departments won't issue the waiver letters and some hand them out like candy..

ATF is looking for the unlicensed gun dealer/police/sheriff that is making a tidy sum in the reselling of off roster guns..

The sales still go through DROS so the reports you hear of guns showing up at crime scenes is because of guns being brought in and someone who passed the DROS giving them away for cash..
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