Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Ammo and Reloading
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 10-09-2017, 7:10 AM
Kwikvette's Avatar
Kwikvette Kwikvette is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Monterey County
Posts: 2,884
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by milotrain View Post
24gr of RL15 and a 77SMK
24.5gr of Varget and a 77SMK
24gr of 4895 and a 77SMK
23.2gr of 8208 and a 77SMK

This thread has been entirely too long, the 223 in an AR has been done to death, the above is all you need to know. Seriously, you can go win nationals with that load if you know how to shoot.
This thread is about load development, and the process of.

If I wanted a recipe, I would've used the many found online (even our own sticky thread). I wanted to go through the process and learn from there; who knows, my rifle may have preferred 23gr of RL15 more than 24gr.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 10-09-2017, 7:24 AM
milotrain's Avatar
milotrain milotrain is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,254
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

Do load development for something that needs it. Your AR doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post
who knows, my rifle may have preferred 23gr of RL15 more than 24gr.
I know, so does everyone who told you already. Your rifle prefers 24gr of RL15, I'll bet you $100.

That is the problem with your present understanding of load development. It is not the myth and magic that so many people think it is. It's NOT "every rifle is different". It is "powders want certain capacities, bullets want certain velocities, some bullets want certain jumps, some barrels and some chambers make things harder."

It's not that 24gr of RL15 and a 77SMK at mag length is necessarily obvious (it is but that's beside the point) it's that what work was done to get there is betrayed by how simple the solution is. You want to learn about load dev? Learn why 24gr of RL15 and a 77SMK works in every AR. That will teach you more than wasting powder.
__________________
weg: That device is obsolete now. They replaced it with wizards.
frank: Wait a minute. There are more than one wizard? Is [are?] the wizard calibrated?

Last edited by milotrain; 10-09-2017 at 7:33 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 10-09-2017, 7:36 AM
JackEllis JackEllis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: NorCal Mountains
Posts: 601
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Do load development for something that needs it. Your AR doesn't.
You might well be right but as a somewhat inexperienced reloader I find reading other people's threads helpful since I'm pretty sure I haven't learned all there is to know.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 10-09-2017, 4:21 PM
smoothy8500's Avatar
smoothy8500 smoothy8500 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 1,191
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

A little "fine tuning" of a standard load couldn't hurt.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 10-09-2017, 7:29 PM
kcstott's Avatar
kcstott kcstott is offline
Toolmaker Extraordinaire
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: National City Socal
Posts: 9,561
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Milotrain
A few old sayings come to mind. But I think the one most applicable is. “I can teach you, but I can’t learn it for you”

Then there is the whole thing of asking a question and not wanting an answer because all you want to do is hear your own voice. Guy drives a Vet, you expect him to learn anything? Yeah I stereotype him but 90% of the time it’s correct.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 10-09-2017, 11:12 PM
smoothy8500's Avatar
smoothy8500 smoothy8500 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 1,191
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
Guy drives a Vet.... Yeah I stereotype him but 90% of the time itís correct.
Hmmm, which stereotype...The old White guy driving the Vette?
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 10-10-2017, 8:46 AM
Kwikvette's Avatar
Kwikvette Kwikvette is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Monterey County
Posts: 2,884
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackEllis View Post
You might well be right but as a somewhat inexperienced reloader I find reading other people's threads helpful since I'm pretty sure I haven't learned all there is to know.
In another thread, I've posted that I read a ton of stuff. Had to learn new phrases, etc. because they were using lingo I've never heard of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
A little "fine tuning" of a standard load couldn't hurt.
And that was my intent; with doing so I'm also gaining experience/knowledge as to what's going on during the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
Milotrain
A few old sayings come to mind. But I think the one most applicable is. “I can teach you, but I can’t learn it for you”

Then there is the whole thing of asking a question and not wanting an answer because all you want to do is hear your own voice. Guy drives a Vet, you expect him to learn anything? Yeah I stereotype him but 90% of the time it’s correct.
I specifically asked about the process of load development, and I was told once I find the right charge...move forward to seating and so forth.

Trying to learn as I go, but asking for the right way to go about things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
Hmmm, which stereotype...The old White guy driving the Vette?
Wondering what that stereotype is?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 10-10-2017, 10:07 AM
OpenSightsOnly OpenSightsOnly is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,161
iTrader: 27 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post
I specifically asked about the process of load development, and I was told once I find the right charge...move forward to seating and so forth.

Trying to learn as I go, but asking for the right way to go about things.

Take your blinders off and back off the powder charge and seating depth approach for a sec since that is the easy way.

Focus on post #42. Here's the punch line, "You want to learn about load dev? Learn why 24gr of RL15 and a 77SMK works in every AR. That will teach you more than wasting powder."

I'm not bringing that up to be snarky but you need to get yourself a chrono and a reloading book (try Sierra since they have a good section on service rifle loading).

We already gave you the info that you would ever need. Now, get to work.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 10-10-2017, 10:43 AM
Kwikvette's Avatar
Kwikvette Kwikvette is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Monterey County
Posts: 2,884
iTrader: 42 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenSightsOnly View Post
Take your blinders off and back off the powder charge and seating depth approach for a sec since that is the easy way.

Focus on post #42. Here's the punch line, "You want to learn about load dev? Learn why 24gr of RL15 and a 77SMK works in every AR. That will teach you more than wasting powder."

I'm not bringing that up to be snarky but you need to get yourself a chrono and a reloading book (try Sierra since they have a good section on service rifle loading).

We already gave you the info that you would ever need. Now, get to work.


Need to buy a chrono; as for books I'll definitely buy a few more. I've got the Lyman 50th edition and a Hornady (forgot which one).
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 10-10-2017, 11:19 AM
OpenSightsOnly OpenSightsOnly is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,161
iTrader: 27 / 100%
Default

For chrono, check out magnetospeed

For me, I buy reloading books based on the match bullets that I use. I have Sierra (very good!), Hornady (has pictures for OCD and ADD/ADHD peeps), and Berger (if you can afford the bullets on a regular basis).

Chrono your 24 grains of RL15 with the 77 SMK.

Since you have Mk262 ammo, chrono that as well and tear one apart and measure the powder charge.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 10-10-2017, 11:23 AM
highpower790's Avatar
highpower790 highpower790 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: san lorenzo
Posts: 2,893
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenSightsOnly View Post
For chrono, check out magnetospeed

For me, I buy reloading books based on the match bullets that I use. I have Sierra (very good!), Hornady (has pictures for OCD and ADD/ADHD peeps), and Berger (if you can afford the bullets on a regular basis).

Chrono your 24 grains of RL15 with the 77 SMK.

Since you have Mk262 ammo, chrono that as well and tear one apart and measure the powder charge.
2800fps is the number a lot of highpower shooters look for.This could help op,but a 18" barrel will fall a little short.
__________________
Keep it simple!
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 10-10-2017, 12:11 PM
kcstott's Avatar
kcstott kcstott is offline
Toolmaker Extraordinaire
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: National City Socal
Posts: 9,561
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post
In another thread, I've posted that I read a ton of stuff. Had to learn new phrases, etc. because they were using lingo I've never heard of.



And that was my intent; with doing so I'm also gaining experience/knowledge as to what's going on during the process.



I specifically asked about the process of load development, and I was told once I find the right charge...move forward to seating and so forth.

Trying to learn as I go, but asking for the right way to go about things.



Wondering what that stereotype is?
I donít know, you were given solid advice by more than a few people, that all seem to fall on deaf ears...
As to the stereotype well, keep asking for advice then completely disregard that advice and do your own thing opposite from what most are telling you and with no chrono... youíll figure it.

Load development is easy but you need the right tools because a nice tight group is only half the battle, you need to know velocity, and where you are on the pressure curve.

You could think you have real good load only to go to a different range and see your group open up??? But why you say? Because you where on the ragged edge of the pressure plateau and any minor variation is causing a jump in velocity. Nothing opens up a group more than velocity variations. You shoot for a nice flat plateau of velocities over a few powder charge changes then load the middle load, shoot a group and if need be seat toward the lands. This technique has proven to work time and again. You are just chasing your tail with out a chrono
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Dick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tujungatoes View Post
That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
The above statement i consider a term of endearment
Need prints for your build? Need reference materials for Gunsmithing projects, Click Here
I fear that even though as tough as life has been for me I have only begun to pay for my sins.
Don't forget to have your Liberals spayed or neutered !
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 10-10-2017, 12:23 PM
jimmykan's Avatar
jimmykan jimmykan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,747
iTrader: 96 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenSightsOnly View Post
For chrono, check out magnetospeed

For me, I buy reloading books based on the match bullets that I use. I have Sierra (very good!), Hornady (has pictures for OCD and ADD/ADHD peeps), and Berger (if you can afford the bullets on a regular basis).

Chrono your 24 grains of RL15 with the 77 SMK.

Since you have Mk262 ammo, chrono that as well and tear one apart and measure the powder charge.
Magnetospeeds are a great invention, but keep in mind that because you are attaching something to the end of your barrel, it will change your barrel harmonics.

I will shoot a string to gather velocity data but disregard the groups I get with the Magnetospeed unit attached to the barrel.

Because, like a muzzle brake or suppressor, the best-grouping load with the device attached may group differently when shooting without the attachment.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 10-10-2017, 12:35 PM
kcstott's Avatar
kcstott kcstott is offline
Toolmaker Extraordinaire
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: National City Socal
Posts: 9,561
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmykan View Post
Magnetospeeds are a great invention, but keep in mind that because you are attaching something to the end of your barrel, it will change your barrel harmonics.

I will shoot a string to gather velocity data but disregard the groups I get with the Magnetospeed unit attached to the barrel.

Because, like a muzzle brake or suppressor, the best-grouping load with the device attached may group differently when shooting without the attachment.
This is true, and was a fear of mine. Iím working on a solution to that problem. Building a mount that will attach to the stock via pic rail and lay the bayonet in the proper position near the muzzle. Iíll have that completed before thanksgiving.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Dick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tujungatoes View Post
That guy is a hack. He worked on one of my ak's and now the damn thing only shoots .50 cal bullets.
The above statement i consider a term of endearment
Need prints for your build? Need reference materials for Gunsmithing projects, Click Here
I fear that even though as tough as life has been for me I have only begun to pay for my sins.
Don't forget to have your Liberals spayed or neutered !
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 10-10-2017, 12:46 PM
Whiterabbit Whiterabbit is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 6,704
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post
Some progress today;

I took the first firing period to shoot 15 rounds loaded up in Federal brass, CCI400, 24gr of RL15, and SMK 77gr bullets;

0.7965
0.8185
0.9645

Happy with my groups, I went to fire a few more and ended up with;

0.8180
0.5710

Seems all I needed was a bit more powder because these groups shrunk by a lot compared to 23.5gr

I was hoping to see the same results with the next load which consists of Lake City brass, CCI41 primers, 24gr of CFE223, and SMK 77gr bullets;

1.4670
1.2605
0.8995
1.3840
1.1510

I may be the cause of the near 1 1/2" group but overall it was consistently larger in group size.

My thinking is telling me to load up a few rounds of RL15 with 24.3gr and see if it consistently groups better or worse.

Would you guys keep bothering with the CFE223 stuff?
No, I would not bother with CFE223 at all any more. You found the load with promise already. Stick with it.

You can choose how far you want to go with it. You don't need to keep on developing forever, you just need to go as far as you want, then load in bulk and life is good. What is your standard? half inch? .75 inch? 1 inch? If you want sub-MOA, stop now, because you are there already. 5x 5 round groups and all under 1". That is a solid 1 inch load right there.

Sure you can try 24.3. Why stop there? Why not shoot 5 rounds each of 24.3, 24.6, 24.9? At some point the groups will open up. That will indicate the center of your minimum point, too.

If I were you, I'd just call it a day, 1" is great, and "it's just an AR". But then again, I'm not an AR shooter, so your goals may differ from mine.

--------------

From this point forward, IMO, your method of development changes. You have a "standard" by which to compare. On any given day, you can shoot 5 of your current best (24.0 RL15), and then your test load (new primer, different OAL, whatever). The current best becomes the control, because maybe you are having an off day and shoot the control at 1.5", then the next load shoots 1.0. Without the control, you'd conclude there's no change between your best and the new tester, when in fact it's better.

Nothing wrong with just rocking out with what you got now tho. What's wrong with 1" at 100?
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 10-10-2017, 12:52 PM
OpenSightsOnly OpenSightsOnly is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,161
iTrader: 27 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmykan View Post
Magnetospeeds are a great invention, but keep in mind that because you are attaching something to the end of your barrel, it will change your barrel harmonics.

I will shoot a string to gather velocity data but disregard the groups I get with the Magnetospeed unit attached to the barrel.

Because, like a muzzle brake or suppressor, the best-grouping load with the device attached may group differently when shooting without the attachment.
I know that . . .

I don't need to do load development for a service rifle since the powder/bullet/barrel/chamber combo has been figured out a long time ago by civilians or military service rifle teams like AMU.

I used a magneto speed just to figure out the velocity of a 77 SMK with 8208XBR as well as H4895.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 10-10-2017, 5:12 PM
milotrain's Avatar
milotrain milotrain is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,254
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

Here is almost everything you need to know about load dev with proofs
http://singleactions.proboards.com/t...enchrest-rifle
__________________
weg: That device is obsolete now. They replaced it with wizards.
frank: Wait a minute. There are more than one wizard? Is [are?] the wizard calibrated?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:42 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.