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  #1  
Old 05-23-2018, 1:00 PM
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Just venting here. Today I turned down two firearm sales because of this” Federal Limits Apply” driver’s license BS. Between the Roster and the Federal Limits license BS, FFL’s will die a slow death. Thanks DOJ for my business loss.
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Old 05-23-2018, 1:13 PM
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In somewhat of the defense of DOJ, remember, it is the Calif. "Liberal" Legislature that thinks up this crap and the Calif. cit's vote on it OR the governor signs the legislation into law.
DOJ is just tasked with implementing the laws, good or bad.
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Old 05-23-2018, 1:21 PM
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I have been managing two week turn arounds for people to go and get the REALID FYI if they walk in.
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Old 05-24-2018, 6:25 AM
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My favorite is when a customer tells me I am wrong and to send the gun to another dealer that will take it. I love getting penalized for trying to follow the rules
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Old 05-24-2018, 7:44 AM
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I get that all the time

"Well (Insert other FFL here) does it!"

They never understand that becuase the other FFL has no clue what they are doing. That goes for SOOO much, like taking temporary IDs, DROSing on the wrong address without supporting documents hoping to get them at pick up, all kinds of stuff. They think that because they DID it somewhere else, that is the actual way you are SUPPOSED to do it.

I always tell them to go there then, but they wont be there long if they keep doing it! lol.

The REAL ID thing is different though, becuase Turners for instance is still taking them as long as they are POST 2017 because they have the lawyers to stand and say "show me the law". But the little shops cant take on the DOJ like that.
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Old 05-24-2018, 5:24 PM
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Originally Posted by OCArmory View Post
My favorite is when a customer tells me I am wrong and to send the gun to another dealer that will take it. I love getting penalized for trying to follow the rules
I would only send the firearm back to where it came unless it was sold by a CA FFL, which the customer should pay for the shipping and your time. The reason for this is when it is sent to you by an out of state retailer, you become the CA retailer and are responsible for submitting the sales tax. If you ship it to another CA FFL, then in addition to the CA sales tax for the firearm, you would owe the CA sales tax for the transfer fee. If it came from a CA FFL, then they are the retailer and so it would not be a sales tax issue for you.

Suggesting that they call the CA DOJ might work, but since you know that they don't have a valid ID to do a firearm transfer, it is best to not have your business in the chain of transfer of the firearm.
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Old 05-25-2018, 1:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
I would only send the firearm back to where it came unless it was sold by a CA FFL, which the customer should pay for the shipping and your time. The reason for this is when it is sent to you by an out of state retailer, you become the CA retailer and are responsible for submitting the sales tax. If you ship it to another CA FFL, then in addition to the CA sales tax for the firearm, you would owe the CA sales tax for the transfer fee. If it came from a CA FFL, then they are the retailer and so it would not be a sales tax issue for you.

Suggesting that they call the CA DOJ might work, but since you know that they don't have a valid ID to do a firearm transfer, it is best to not have your business in the chain of transfer of the firearm.

Too deep for me man. I say fix yourself or Im shippin it back... lol

I have a very good report with my clients and they nearly ALWAYS have me bless everything beofre it ships, so I rarely run into the issue.
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Old 05-25-2018, 1:39 PM
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Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
Too deep for me man. I say fix yourself or Im shippin it back... lol
Well, you should understand the issues with sales tax and what effect it can have on your business depending on what you do. Shipping it back is a safe option.
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Old 05-25-2018, 1:44 PM
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Well, you should understand the issues with sales tax and what effect it can have on your business depending on what you do. Shipping it back is a safe option.
If its CA, either FFL can accept the sales tax. We have charged sales tax at purchase and then sent the firearm to another FFL in CA. Of course we sent them documentation that we collected the sales tax on the firearm.
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Old 05-25-2018, 2:10 PM
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If its CA, either FFL can accept the sales tax. We have charged sales tax at purchase and then sent the firearm to another FFL in CA. Of course we sent them documentation that we collected the sales tax on the firearm.
Actually not. There is one who is obligated to submit the sales tax and that is the one who is considered the CA retailer. If you get audited and didn't submit the sales tax, you could have a problem, which trying to prove that some other FFL collected the sales tax may not help, especially if the sales tax rate is different.

A CA retailer is required to submit the sales tax. If the CA FFL is the retailer and the firearm is shipped to another CA FFL, then the CA FFL which is the retailer is also responsible for submitting the sales tax on the transfer fee even though they may not know what it is. Many CA FFL don't know that they are responsible for the sales tax on the transfer fee, just like in the past many FFLs were not aware that they were responsible for submitting the sales tax on firearms from out of state businesses who don't have a presence in CA. Not knowing isn't an excuse though.

If you want to claim that either CA FFL can submit the sales tax, please provide proof of that. The CA BOE says otherwise (now the CDTFA).
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  #11  
Old 05-25-2018, 2:16 PM
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Ok I don't want to get into this, but I have to say something because now I'm confused.

I have to charge Sales tax to any purchase made in CA. SO If I ship to a CA retailer, then they keep that receipt on file.

Same as if they ship it to me with a receipt that has sales tax charged, Im not charging AGAIN. You don't get taxed TWICE!
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Old 05-25-2018, 2:29 PM
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Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
Ok I don't want to get into this, but I have to say something because now I'm confused.

I have to charge Sales tax to any purchase made in CA. SO If I ship to a CA retailer, then they keep that receipt on file.

Same as if they ship it to me with a receipt that has sales tax charged, Im not charging AGAIN. You don't get taxed TWICE!
As a CA retailer, you have to submit the sales tax if you make a sale to a CA resident. The sales tax amount includes the cost of the firearm, the shipping to the transfer dealer since it is not shipped directly to the customer and the transfer fee amount for the transfer dealer.

Since the firearm came from a CA retailer, they don't need to keep any documentation that sales tax was paid, but it is a good idea to do so, since they are not considered the CA retailer and have no obligation to submit the sales tax.

You don't get taxed twice, but there is only ONE who is required to submit the sales tax.

This is why it is an issue if you receive a firearm from out of state since then you become the CA retailer. Your shipping it to another CA FFL does not change that. That makes you on the hook for the sales tax. That means that you either need to return the firearm or submit the sales tax.
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Last edited by kemasa; 05-25-2018 at 2:32 PM..
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Old 05-25-2018, 2:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
As a CA retailer, you have to submit the sales tax if you make a sale to a CA resident. The sales tax amount includes the cost of the firearm, the shipping to the transfer dealer since it is not shipped directly to the customer and the transfer fee amount for the transfer dealer.

Since the firearm came from a CA retailer, they don't need to keep any documentation that sales tax was paid, but it is a good idea to do so, since they are not considered the CA retailer and have no obligation to submit the sales tax.

You don't get taxed twice, but there is only ONE who is required to submit the sales tax.

This is why it is an issue if you receive a firearm from out of state since then you become the CA retailer. Your shipping it to another CA FFL does not change that. That makes you on the hook for the sales tax. That means that you either need to return the firearm or submit the sales tax.
A larger SOCAL chain sent us an HK pistol for transfer and didn't collect sales tax.
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Old 05-25-2018, 2:59 PM
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A larger SOCAL chain sent us an HK pistol for transfer and didn't collect sales tax.
Well, if they get audited, it will be their problem, not yours.
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Old 05-31-2018, 6:33 AM
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Seems like the discussion got away from Real IDs, but I'll join in anyway.

I have not been taxing my internet transfer fees. I tax the firearm itself, but not my fee. My logic is that my fee is labor, not a product.

Likewise, for a private party transfer ($35 by law, $10 of which is the FFL's "fee"), the $10 isn't taxed, or at least I have not been taxing it. Maybe PPTs are different since we don't tax the firearm itself but if our PPT fee isn't taxable, why would it be for internet transfers?

Similarly, I don't tax customers for mailing a firearm for them. If I supply packing materials I tax those, but not my fee. I confirmed with my local Franchise Tax Board rep (or whatever they call themselves these days) that I only needed to tax the materials. My shipping fee is labor and therefor not taxable.

Last, I don't tax the shipping fee the buyer paid to the internet seller. In most cases I don't even know what that amount is. This is the one I'm the least confident in and may need to reconsider.

Am I incorrect in thinking transfer fees are labor and therefor not taxable?
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Old 05-31-2018, 6:42 AM
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Am I incorrect in thinking transfer fees are labor and therefor not taxable?
You are incorrect. If the firearm is subject to sales tax, then the transfer fee is too. Read the BOE letters. I don't have easy access to them right now, but it should be in the sales tax FAQ.

PPTs can be subject to sales tax if the FFL gets involved in the price or finds the buyer or seller.
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Old 05-31-2018, 6:45 AM
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Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post

The REAL ID thing is different though, becuase Turners for instance is still taking them as long as they are POST 2017 because they have the lawyers to stand and say "show me the law". But the little shops cant take on the DOJ like that.
Turners is no longer taking federal limits apply ID either. I too screwed up with mail in renewal and now need to go fix the garbage.


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Old 05-31-2018, 6:53 AM
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Turners is no longer taking federal limits apply ID either.
In other words they had a chat with the CA DOJ.
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Old 05-31-2018, 7:39 AM
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I just talked to a manager at Turners, and he said they still accept 2018+ Fed Limits Ids...
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Old 05-31-2018, 7:46 AM
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I just talked to a manager at Turners, and he said they still accept 2018+ Fed Limits Ids...
Maybe not all of them got the message.
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Old 05-31-2018, 7:54 AM
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Well, other than the DOJ saying "LOOK AT OUR LAST BULLETIN", nothing in the law says you cant take it.

You need proof of AGE and IDENTITY, The reason we could not take FED LIM APPLY IDs in 2017 because we KNEW these were issued to aliens who were not eligible to buy a firearm. You cant knowingly attempt to sell a firearm to someone you know isn't eligible. The ATF and DOJ both put out bulletins letting us know this.

The ATF since rescinded the letter because they understand that the new IDs don't imply you cant buy a gun. The DOJ is just dragging its feet about taking back the bulletin for some reason, but the information they put out no longer holds water. So other than thier OPINION, there doesn't seem to be anything illegal about it. So I can see how turners with the volume they have and the money they risk loosing turning away customers would out way the risk of a legal battle with the DOJ.
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Old 05-31-2018, 8:01 AM
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Yep, but ignoring the DOJ doesn't tend to end well, even if you are proven right in the end.
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Old 06-01-2018, 9:06 AM
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Old 06-05-2018, 12:48 PM
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Just had a customer go to the DMV Tuesday, and get his REAL ID Monday. 6 days from walk in, to ID card delivered.

Crazy
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