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  #41  
Old 07-16-2018, 6:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
I think the point of the gift card is to eliminate the issue of Brother-A paying for the gun and having it shipped to Brother-B in California... Brother-B is not the actual buyer, and Brother-A is buying but not completing the 4473, and is not the actual transferee.
It is interesting, you keep changing terms to justify it. There is NO issue. The person filling out the form needs to be EITHER the buyer OR the transferee. Often the buyer is also the transferee.

The person who pays for the firearm need not be the one who fills out the paperwork if the firearm is not intended for them, but as a gift. They can legally fill out the 4473, but it is not required.

Brother-A is buying a firearm as a gift for Brother-B. Brother-B is who the firearm is intended for and therefore can legally fill out the 4473 as they are the transferee. Brother-A can fill out the 4473 since they are the actual buyer and it is a gift.

If the transferee is not in the same state, then it legally is required to go through a FFL in the state of residence of the transferee. Unless the person buying the gift wants to personally bring the firearm to the person getting the gift and then goes to a FFL in that state, it is pointless for them to transfer the firearm to themself.

Quote:
If Brother-A buys it, it needs to be transferred on a 4473 to Brother-A, whereupon he may then ship/gift it to Brother-B.
There is NO such requirement.

Quote:

If Brother-A sends a Bud's gift card to Brother-B, then Brother-B is the actual buyer/transferee, and it avoids the 1st transfer to Brother-A.
Brother-B need not be the buyer, only the transferee. Yes, it can be done that way, but it really changes nothing. If it were a straw purchase, then a gift card could be used to make it harder to track, but it could still be tracked and it would still be illegal.


Quote:
Nothing was mentioned by the OP about this being a roster-problematic situation.
That is what is often assumed though.

If it is illegal, it doesn't matter if the payment is direct or indirect, it is still illegal.

If it is a gift, it doesn't matter if it is paid direct or indirectly.

The person filling out the 4473 needs to be the actual buyer OR transferee. If they are the transferee, they need not pay for it. If they are the buyer, they can be giving it as a gift.
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  #42  
Old 07-16-2018, 7:00 PM
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BTW, who pays and how they pay is ONLY a warning sign of a possible straw purchase, it doesn't make it a straw purchase or not. It makes no difference how the payment is done. All that matters is who the firearm is actually intended for and who can fill out the paperwork.

Often FFLs seem to get freaked out if someone else pays directly and they often think that if the person paying either gives the person the money directly or buys a gift card that it makes some sort of a difference, but it doesn't. The money can be tracked either way.
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  #43  
Old 07-16-2018, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The person who pays for the firearm need not be the one who fills out the paperwork if the firearm is not intended for them, but as a gift. They can legally fill out the 4473, but it is not required.
So are you saying that Brother-A in Utah can order a gun from Bud's and have it shipped to an FFL in California where Brother-B can execute the DROS and take possession?
That is apparently not what Caliguy93 was just told by ATF.
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  #44  
Old 07-16-2018, 7:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
So are you saying that Brother-A in Utah can order a gun from Bud's and have it shipped to an FFL in California where Brother-B can execute the DROS and take possession?
That is apparently not what Caliguy93 was just told by ATF.
Yep. You can get bad info from the BATF, so unless it is a person that you trust, you should confirm it. Ask the question as to why it would be an issue. The person that pays isn't required to transfer it to themself, excluding an interstate intrafamilial transfer.

Why would it be illegal? If it is a gift, it is perfectly legal to do it that way. If Brother-B is in CA, the only requirement is that it go through a CA FFL.
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  #45  
Old 07-16-2018, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by caliguy93 View Post
I did get confirmation form regional ATF that the giftor must fill out a 4473 and cannot just have it shipped from the online vendor
Sorry, but that is bad info. Have the cite the code which requires that.
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  #46  
Old 07-16-2018, 7:59 PM
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Sorry, but that is bad info. Have the cite the code which requires that.
I donít know where else to get confirming information. Sheís the compliance agent on charge for my area.
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  #47  
Old 07-16-2018, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by caliguy93 View Post
I donít know where else to get confirming information. Sheís the compliance agent on charge for my area.
You can call the national number or call another area and also check the Federal Code. I can try to ask the person that I know.

The simple thing is to ask why it would be required to transfer it to the buyer. It makes no sense, especially if the person getting it is out of state.

I have heard of IOIs who made claims which conflicted with what was written in the instructions on the 4473.
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  #48  
Old 07-16-2018, 9:19 PM
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Curious to see what your agent would say. When I asked mine I offered both possible methods and she told me that they had to do the 4473 then gift it. If she is mistaken it would be awesome.

Last edited by caliguy93; 07-16-2018 at 9:50 PM..
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  #49  
Old 07-16-2018, 9:54 PM
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Use of gift cards or anything does NOT change the situation.
Oh, yes it does! A gift card allows the user to redeem that credit in any way they want.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Yep. You can get bad info from the BATF, so unless it is a person that you trust, you should confirm it. Ask the question as to why it would be an issue. The person that pays isn't required to transfer it to themself, excluding an interstate intrafamilial transfer.

Why would it be illegal? If it is a gift, it is perfectly legal to do it that way. If Brother-B is in CA, the only requirement is that it go through a CA FFL.
Nope! It would be a dealer sale from a CA dealer who received the gun from Buds.

A gift would need to be from the person who owned it previously.

If you disagree then you blow up your previous assertstions that ownership of a gun doesnít happen until the official transfer occurs. So, which is is it? Can you gift something you donít own?
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  #51  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Oh, yes it does! A gift card allows the user to redeem that credit in any way they want.
As far as the laws and firearms go, it doesn't change a thing. The person who bought the gift card still paid and if the intent was to buy a firearm, it doesn't change a thing. If you really think that legally it changes anything, good luck to you and you had best hope you don't find out.
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  #52  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Nope! It would be a dealer sale from a CA dealer who received the gun from Buds.

A gift would need to be from the person who owned it previously.

If you disagree then you blow up your previous assertstions that ownership of a gun doesnít happen until the official transfer occurs. So, which is is it? Can you gift something you donít own?
So if someone buys a gun from Buds and transfers it through you, you really think that it is a dealer sale from you? How you do the DROS and the limits doesn't change anything. If the person buys a gun from a private party and ships it through a dealer to you, it doesn't magically become a sale from you.

You really think that a person who buys a firearm and has it transferred through you, but never had it transferred to themselves makes it not a gift? What exactly do you call it when a person gets a firearm that they didn't pay for?

Then consider a group purchase gift. Ten people donate money to buy a firearm to give to a person. Does the firearm have to be transferred to all 10 people first?

Ownership doesn't transfer until the paperwork is done, but if they paid for it, then they have a financial interest in it. If a person were to buy you a car and they pay the dealership directly, they don't own the car as the title wasn't transferred to them, so you really want to claim that it wasn't a gift? The gift is when you get the item, not how exactly it came to be paid for.
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  #53  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
As far as the laws and firearms go, it doesn't change a thing. The person who bought the gift card still paid and if the intent was to buy a firearm, it doesn't change a thing. If you really think that legally it changes anything, good luck to you and you had best hope you don't find out.
It makes all the difference in the world.

A VISA gift card used by a customer could have been issued as a Xmas present or birthday present and used any way the person wanted to use it. Hell, you can opt to buy groceries with it, ammo, guns ect. Bass Pro and Cabelas have them for sale at Safeway.

WTF are you talking about?
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  #54  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:18 PM
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Oh, explain to me how you are doing a dealer sale on an item that your business never bought and you were never paid for it.
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  #55  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
It makes all the difference in the world.

A VISA gift card used by a customer could have been issued as a Xmas present or birthday present and used any way the person wanted to use it. Hell, you can opt to buy groceries with it, ammo, guns ect. Bass Pro and Cabelas have them for sale at Safeway.

WTF are you talking about?
If the intention is to pay for the firearm, it is the same. You really think that a judge would say that giving a gift card to pay for a firearm is any different than paying for it directly? Under that view you could never have a straw purchase since the person was given money that they could have bought anything with the money.
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  #56  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:22 PM
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My Dad usually gives me Turners gift cards for my birthday, I've used them to buy firearms and it never seems to be a problem and none of us have ever gone to jail for a straw sale.

I've done this several times with several firearms.

And we're talking about gift cards from Turners bought expressly for the purpose of buying a firearm.
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  #57  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:24 PM
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For that matter I bought my Niece a S&W 638 for her college graduation.
She filled out the 4473 and I paid for the gun and DROS right there in the gun store.
This was at a gun store down in San Diego area.
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  #58  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
So if someone buys a gun from Buds and transfers it through you, you really think that it is a dealer sale from you? How you do the DROS and the limits doesn't change anything. If the person buys a gun from a private party and ships it through a dealer to you, it doesn't magically become a sale from you.

You really think that a person who buys a firearm and has it transferred through you, but never had it transferred to themselves makes it not a gift? What exactly do you call it when a person gets a firearm that they didn't pay for?

Then consider a group purchase gift. Ten people donate money to buy a firearm to give to a person. Does the firearm have to be transferred to all 10 people first?

Ownership doesn't transfer until the paperwork is done, but if they paid for it, then they have a financial interest in it. If a person were to buy you a car and they pay the dealership directly, they don't own the car as the title wasn't transferred to them, so you really want to claim that it wasn't a gift? The gift is when you get the item, not how exactly it came to be paid for.
If you take this stance then a person who buys a gun from you owns the gun regardless if they are prohibited or not and should be able to give it to a friend or family member which the courts have deemed illegal as in the Santa Clara case where the wife sued for her husbands guns who became prohibited.

If Iím sitting in San Quentin, are you saying I could buy a gun and have it transferred to my brother? Oh and YES IF YOU READ THE ENTIRE THREAD, the OP is talking about a gift from a brother, in another state, ordering online an off roster pistol and sending it as a gift without ever owning it. just an FYI
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  #59  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
My Dad usually gives me Turners gift cards for my birthday, I've used them to buy firearms and it never seems to be a problem and none of us have ever gone to jail for a straw sale.

I've done this several times with several firearms.
Yes, because you didn't then give the gun to your father. There is absolutely nothing wrong with giving a firearm to someone, to buy them a gift of a firearm.

If your father gave you a gift card and you bought a firearm and turned around and gave him the firearm, you could have a problem unless you could show that the transactions were not related and there was no intent for your father to give you the gift card for your giving him the gun.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
My Dad usually gives me Turners gift cards for my birthday, I've used them to buy firearms and it never seems to be a problem and none of us have ever gone to jail for a straw sale.

I've done this several times with several firearms.

And we're talking about gift cards from Turners bought expressly for the purpose of buying a firearm.
ATF has told me, a gift card or certificate is legit. The user can do what they want with it.
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  #61  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
For that matter I bought my Niece a S&W 638 for her college graduation.
She filled out the 4473 and I paid for the gun and DROS right there in the gun store.
This was at a gun store down in San Diego area.
Nothing at all wrong with that. Perfectly legal, but the view by some is that you didn't give a gift of the firearm as it was never transferred to you.
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  #62  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
If you take this stance then a person who buys a gun from you owns the gun regardless if they are prohibited or not and should be able to give it to a friend or family member which the courts have deemed illegal as in the Santa Clara case where the wife sued for her husbands guns who became prohibited.

If Iím sitting in San Quentin, are you saying I could buy a gun and have it transferred to my brother? Oh and YES IF YOU READ THE ENTIRE THREAD, the OP is talking about a gift from a brother, in another state, ordering online an off roster pistol and sending it as a gift without ever owning it. just an FYI
Wow, don't create strawmen to knock down.

Just because they paid doesn't mean that they owned it and it doesn't mean that when you get it transferred to you that it wasn't a gift to you.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
For that matter I bought my Niece a S&W 638 for her college graduation.
She filled out the 4473 and I paid for the gun and DROS right there in the gun store.
This was at a gun store down in San Diego area.
Ok so, that would not happen in some cases in my store. If I knew both people there would not be a problem. The whole straw thing is problematic for gun store owners. Regardless, I will issue a gift card and let the the recipient decide on their purchase of whatever they want.

This way, if the gift card purchaser doesnít know if the gifted is prohibited, the gifted can make the choice if they want to try to illegally buy a gun or Pelican cases for their.... Guitars?
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
the OP is talking about a gift from a brother, in another state, ordering online an off roster pistol and sending it as a gift without ever owning it. just an FYI
This wouldn’t be a straw sale but it does open another line of questioning.

Since it’s an off roster pistol coming in from out of State it shouldn’t be able to be DOSed should it?

It would be no different than me trying to order an off roster pistol from Bud’s from the sound of it.
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  #65  
Old 07-16-2018, 10:38 PM
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This wouldnít be a straw sale but it does one another line of questioning.

Since itís an off roster pistol coming in from out of State it shouldnít be able to be DOSed should it?

It would be no different than me trying to order an off roster pistol from Budís from the sound of it.
It isn't off roster.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:38 PM
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Wow, don't create strawmen to knock down.

Just because they paid doesn't mean that they owned it and it doesn't mean that when you get it transferred to you that it wasn't a gift to you.
Donít know what to tell you. ATF agreed with the OP and so does DOJ.

You can take it up with them if you want
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:39 PM
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This wouldnít be a straw sale but it does open another line of questioning.

Since itís an off roster pistol coming in from out of State it shouldnít be able to be DOSed should it?

It would be no different than me trying to order an off roster pistol from Budís from the sound of it.
That would be my understanding. Yes
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:40 PM
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It isn't off roster.
Yes it is. The OP has stated that in other responses
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:42 PM
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Just re-read the OP. It is the brother out of state giving a firearm to the father.

To be an intrafamilial transfer, the out of state brother has to own it first to be exempt from the roster. If it is on the roster, then he doesn't.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:45 PM
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Guys. Read the whole thread. A New Yorker who needs a permit to buy a handgun wants to gift an off roster handgun to a CA resident.

Instead of waiting 4 months for a NY permit to own the gun, the New Yorker wants to buy it online like Buds and gift it to the CA relative who wants to beat the roster. Cough cough. Get an off roster gift
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Just re-read the OP. It is the brother out of state giving a firearm to the father.

To be an intrafamilial transfer, the out of state brother has to own it first to be exempt from the roster. If it is on the roster, then he doesn't.
But the OP has clarified that the gifted gun is off roster in latter responses
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:47 PM
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Donít know what to tell you. ATF agreed with the OP and so does DOJ.

You can take it up with them if you want
Who said it and what exactly was the question? For the "ATF" or "CA DOJ" to say it, it has to be official, otherwise it is just someone who works there who said it.

Remember the CA DOJ told people they could directly get a firearm from an out of state parent and just fill out the CA form.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Who said it and what exactly was the question? For the "ATF" or "CA DOJ" to say it, it has to be official, otherwise it is just someone who works there who said it.

Remember the CA DOJ told people they could directly get a firearm from an out of state parent and just fill out the CA form.
Ya, I know! But, who the hell are we too?
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:50 PM
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Neither of us are gun lawyers.

This is a tough business
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:52 PM
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But the OP has clarified that the gifted gun is off roster in latter responses
That seems a bit unclear from the OP, plus some of the comments talk about brother to brother. Some comments just claim a gift, not that it is an off roster intrafamilial transfer.

So the complete exact question needs to be presented so that the specific question can be answered, not other questions.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:54 PM
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Well what’s the difference in the logistics of its off roster or not other than being exempt? A gift transfer is a gift transfer

Type 1: son in NY orders Remington 700 from budsgunshop and send it directly to Fathers ffl in California as a gift . Dealer conducts transfer

Type 2: son in NY order sig P365 from budsgunshop and sends to fathers ffl in California as gift. Dealer conducts transfer as exempt handgun sale

Or (what the basis of the question is)

Type 3: son in NY orders Remington 700 from budsgunshop, sends it to ffl in NY, conducts 4473, puts it in his name, then ships gun to fathers ffl in California. Dealer conducts transfer

Type 4: Son in NY orders sig P365 from budsgunshop, sends it to ffl in NY, conducts 4473, puts it in his name, then ships gun to fathers ffl in California. Dealer conducts transfer as exempt handgun


Taperz has the original question correct . My brother wants to gift my dad an off roster pistol and would like to avoid the handgun permit process New York requires to possess a handgun since New York requires it for each handgun and the process takes about 4 months.


Which types (1,2,3, or 4) are legal? So far ATF has told me only types 3 and 4 are legal but we don’t have any basis other than the ATF agents opinion (which does matter obviously) that types 1 and 2 are not legal

Last edited by caliguy93; 07-16-2018 at 11:03 PM..
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Old 07-17-2018, 1:56 PM
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I think that you are getting confused with two different aspects. The gift aspect really doesn't matter as it doesn't actually affect the transfer. The main issue is in regards to an off roster handgun for a non-exempt person in which it needs to be an intrafamilial transfer.

I could give you a gift by paying for the firearm directly to your FFL, sending a gift card, giving you cash, buying the firearm myself and shipping it to your FFL or some other means of paying for it. It doesn't matter how the firearm is paid for as long as there is no limit to the ability to transfer it.

You have to be very careful in the question that you ask in order to get the correct answer and understand it.

There is NO requirement or reason to transfer a firearm to the person giving it if the person getting it could just buy it, meaning that no exemption is required.

In order to do an intrafamilial transfer between select family members the person who the firearm is coming from has to own it and have possession of it in order for it to be an exempt transfer otherwise they are just paying for it, it isn't actually coming from them and so it isn't a transfer from them. It isn't just about paying for it, as any other gift would be.

So for your examples:

1 is fine, it is just like the person buying it, except that the other person paid for the gift.

2 is not legal as the handgun is not on the roster and is not exempt from the roster and the son does not own and have possession of the firearm so that it wouldn't actually be an intrafamilial transfer.

3 can be done that way, but there is no requirement to transfer the firearm to the son as there is no restriction on the transfer. Since it is a long gun, there won't be any additional documentation required.

4 is required to be done that way as the firearm is not on the roster and in order to be transferred to the father, it has to be owned and possessed by the son in order to be exempt as an intrafamilial transfer. The transfer needs to be documented that it is from the son to the father and I have been told that you could have a copy of the son's ID (sender) to document that it is really a valid intrafamilial transfer.

Does that explain things?
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Last edited by kemasa; 07-17-2018 at 2:00 PM..
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Old 08-08-2018, 1:05 PM
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Sigh....
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Old 08-08-2018, 6:51 PM
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ok so if the receiving ffl requires all shipments to come from an ffl. How would the receiving ffl know if the firearm was ever in the out of state family members name? how would the DOJ know? there would be no difference in the paperwork or appearance. it would be indistinguishable.
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Old 08-08-2018, 9:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caliguy93 View Post
ok so if the receiving ffl requires all shipments to come from an ffl. How would the receiving ffl know if the firearm was ever in the out of state family members name? how would the DOJ know? there would be no difference in the paperwork or appearance. it would be indistinguishable.
Is it about what you can get away with or what is legal?

If they notice, which might be unlikely, and if they decide to investigate, which might be unlikely, they could have the firearm traced and if was never transferred to an individual, then there would be a problem. If it was sold to a different individual, then they could talk to the person to see what they did with it. Don't assume they could never figure it out, however unlikely it might be. As the saying goes, who cares if it is one in a million if you are the one.
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