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  #1  
Old 11-13-2017, 2:02 PM
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Default Denied CCW after being approved

Hello everyone, Iím looking for some advice for appealing my denial. Iím in Sacramento County and applied for my CCW in the beginning of this year. I have already done the interview and was approved as well as I have done the live scan and was approved to take the training course. I have the training course scheduled for next month but today I received an email that my application has been denied. The reason for denial was for my conviction of misdemeanor speed contest. I was ticketed for speed contest over 18 months ago and the conviction was given about a month ago. I was never arrested and never went to jail although I was given alternative sentencing which I guess is equivalent of jail. During the interview and on the application I explicitly disclosed this information but I was still approved. I thought that I had read somewhere that once your live scan is approved and you are told to take the class that you have been approved and they canít reverse the decision. Any advice to go about the appeal would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 11-13-2017, 2:40 PM
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Lawyer up?
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Old 11-13-2017, 2:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Koolsilver View Post
Hello everyone, Iím looking for some advice for appealing my denial. Iím in Sacramento County and applied for my CCW in the beginning of this year. I have already done the interview and was approved as well as I have done the live scan and was approved to take the training course. I have the training course scheduled for next month but today I received an email that my application has been denied. The reason for denial was for my conviction of misdemeanor speed contest. I was ticketed for speed contest over 18 months ago and the conviction was given about a month ago. I was never arrested and never went to jail although I was given alternative sentencing which I guess is equivalent of jail. During the interview and on the application I explicitly disclosed this information but I was still approved. I thought that I had read somewhere that once your live scan is approved and you are told to take the class that you have been approved and they canít reverse the decision. Any advice to go about the appeal would be greatly appreciated.
I do not believe this is the case. Even in the most conservative counties in Ca it's at the digression of the sheriff or the city police chief.

Sacramento is once of the better places to apply, just find out what the appeal process is and go down that path. Be respectful and honest. If they still say no decide how hard you want to fight it.
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Old 11-13-2017, 3:15 PM
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Like FresnoBob said, before the spelling checker got him, this will likely be at the "discretion" of the IA. Be cool and respectful and simply inquire how this could be since you disclosed the ticket in the interview and after you were told to go ahead and do the live scan and get your training. If you have print outs of emails or letters bring copies to make the hearing officer's job easier. That this is something that happened a year and a half ago, even if it took so long ago. Let the person holding the hearing lead themselves to question if when the conviction came in it was treated as an entirely new matter.

It is up to the hearing board to decide. They can hold that the approval was based on you being found not guilty, which the sheriff pretty well had to do since there is the presumption of innocence.

Good luck. Is there any chance of talking with someone in the department on a more informal basis before going into a formal hearing? Work with them and not against them if possible. If not, you decide if it is worth getting an attorney. The wrong one could just tick the deputy off.

Even if they say no, ask how long until you can reapply.
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Old 11-13-2017, 3:47 PM
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Thanks everyone for the advice. Going in and talking on a more informal basis does seem like a good approach. I’m not sure how other counties are but Sacramento with the online system makes it very impersonal and they make it very hard to talk with anyone. Looks like a good old fashion walk to the office is my best bet.

If anyone has any experience with the appeal process that they’d be willing to share that would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 11-13-2017, 4:15 PM
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even if you are "in the process", or given the, "go ahead", a, "conviction", will trigger a second look at your application. apparently, the committee did not like your "speed contest"........
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Old 11-13-2017, 4:36 PM
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Did you plead guilty to the misdemeanor? Did you try and work out a deal for an infraction, or fight it? A misdemeanor conviction a month ago is a bad deal, so far as a CCW goes. I would have done everything in my power to avoid that misdemeanor conviction.
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Old 11-13-2017, 4:40 PM
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You were convicted of a misdemeanor crime, before or after your live scan? Did you disclose the arrest on your application? You were in fact arrested, you were cited and released, instead of physically taken into custody.

Either way a conviction of 23109 CVC shows questionable judgement, just like a recent DUI conviction, and that is probably a good reason for the denial
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Old 11-13-2017, 4:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FresnoRob View Post
I do not believe this is the case. Even in the most conservative counties in Ca it's at the digression of the sheriff or the city police chief.

Sacramento is once of the better places to apply, just find out what the appeal process is and go down that path. Be respectful and honest. If they still say no decide how hard you want to fight it.
Agreed. Until the paperwork has the Sheriffs signature on it, nothing is a foregone concluding. The Investigating officer, the CCW Unit head, the under-Sherriff can all recommend approval, but the Sheriff (or CoP) has the final say. Period. That individual, and ONLY that individual, has the legal authority in this state to actually issue the license, everyone else can only make reccomendations.
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Old 11-13-2017, 5:05 PM
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Agreed. Until the paperwork has the Sheriffs signature on it, nothing is a foregone concluding. The Investigating officer, the CCW Unit head, the under-Sherriff can all recommend approval, but the Sheriff (or CoP) has the final say. Period. That individual, and ONLY that individual, has the legal authority in this state to actually issue the license, everyone else can only make reccomendations.
And even if the Sheriff did sign a permit, *nothing* prevents the Sheriff from revoking it the very same day. These permits are totally discretionary.
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Old 11-13-2017, 5:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Did you plead guilty to the misdemeanor? Did you try and work out a deal for an infraction, or fight it? A misdemeanor conviction a month ago is a bad deal, so far as a CCW goes. I would have done everything in my power to avoid that misdemeanor conviction.
I hired a lawyer to help me with the case and pleaded with the DA to give me any plea bargain with any punishment besides a misdemeanor mostly for career reasons but the DA wouldnít budge. The CHP was pushing hard to get a conviction even though the circumstances didnít call for such a stiff punishment, every officer Iíve spoken to has been very surprised they went for such a strong punishment.
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Old 11-13-2017, 9:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Koolsilver View Post
I hired a lawyer to help me with the case and pleaded with the DA to give me any plea bargain with any punishment besides a misdemeanor mostly for career reasons but the DA wouldnít budge. The CHP was pushing hard to get a conviction even though the circumstances didnít call for such a stiff punishment, every officer Iíve spoken to has been very surprised they went for such a strong punishment.
Me too.

Many years ago I got the same ticket. I got my lawyer and off to court we went.

The DA wanted to just have the judge hear the case and render the verdict. My lawyer said that he could prove that I was innocent beyond a reasonable doubt and insisted on a jury trial.

The judge wasn't very happy about this but my lawyer rattled off some legal stuff and the judge asked my lawyer and the DA to join him in chamber.

About 20 minutes later they all came back into the court room. My lawyer smiled and said it's all worked out.

The judge asked me to stand. He started to talk and he said that he was adding the charge of unsafe start to the ticket. I looked at my lawyer like WTH? He just looked at me and kind of motioned not to worry about it.

The judge continued to talk. He told me that he was ordering me to attend a driver's education course and so long as I completed it in time he would dismiss the speed contest and the fact that I went to traffic school would wipe out the unsafe start.

Easy peasy.

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Old 11-13-2017, 9:30 PM
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Approval is a step by step process. You got approved for your live scan. Then you got approved for the training portion. You might have not clearly explained your conviction and once they finally got to your report in the pile they decided something in it merited a denial.
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Old 11-13-2017, 9:34 PM
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Originally Posted by morrcarr67 View Post
Me too.

Many years ago I got the same ticket. I got my lawyer and off to court we went.

The DA wanted to just have the judge hear the case and render the verdict. My lawyer said that he could prove that I was innocent beyond a reasonable doubt and insisted on a jury trial.

The judge wasn't very happy about this but my lawyer rattled off some legal stuff and the judge asked my lawyer and the DA to join him in chamber.

About 20 minutes later they all came back into the court room. My lawyer smiled and said it's all worked out.

The judge asked me to stand. He started to talk and he said that he was adding the charge of unsafe start to the ticket. I looked at my lawyer like WTH? He just looked at me and kind of motioned not to worry about it.

The judge continued to talk. He told me that he was ordering me to attend a driver's education course and so long as I completed it in time he would dismiss the speed contest and the fact that I went to traffic school would wipe out the unsafe start.

Easy peasy.

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I would have also angled for a jury trial. Many times the best settlements come on the courthouse steps, just as a jury is about to be selected, or in the case of a criminal matter - in the judge's chamber after it is clear you want a trial by jury.
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Old 11-13-2017, 9:34 PM
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Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
And even if the Sheriff did sign a permit, *nothing* prevents the Sheriff from revoking it the very same day. These permits are totally discretionary.
Bingo

Even after you have your permit in-hand, a conviction for a speed contest will most likely result in revocation of your permit.

Feel free to appeal, but it is doubtful that the outcome will change.
An attorney isn't going to be able to help.
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Old 11-14-2017, 1:41 AM
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Interactions with law enforcement is becoming a huge issue for denial for CCW
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Old 11-14-2017, 9:12 AM
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I would have also angled for a jury trial. Many times the best settlements come on the courthouse steps, just as a jury is about to be selected, or in the case of a criminal matter - in the judge's chamber after it is clear you want a trial by jury.
^^^THIS^^^

And not only for the reasons that Skyhawk mentioned, but also because once each side has the opportunity to see that the other's witnesses are present and available to testify, the certainty of the outcome is much better known and makes a settlement a lot easier.

It's kinda like a poker game where you get to see your opponent's hand before the final ante.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:21 AM
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Interactions with law enforcement is becoming a huge issue for denial for CCW


.......and NOT reporting the interaction......
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Old 11-14-2017, 1:09 PM
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What exactly is "speed contest"? (Never heard that term)

If it is racing on public streets or what's called a "sideshow" and your conviction was a month ago then I can understand the denial. That's reckless conduct and can get people killed. I'm sure you don't disagree, with the benefit of hindsight.

If I was the sherrif and it was my call, knowing public safety hinges on my decisions, I most likely would have denied you too, until you can show me 3-5 years of better judgment. Sorry, not what you wanted to hear I'm sure.
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Old 11-14-2017, 1:33 PM
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What exactly is "speed contest"? (Never heard that term)

If it is racing on public streets or what's called a "sideshow" and your conviction was a month ago then I can understand the denial. That's reckless conduct and can get people killed. I'm sure you don't disagree, with the benefit of hindsight.

If I was the sherrif and it was my call, knowing public safety hinges on my decisions, I most likely would have denied you too, until you can show me 3-5 years of better judgment. Sorry, not what you wanted to hear I'm sure.
Bruss,

"Speed Contest" is the common title attached to Vehicle Code section 23109. It's the section commonly used for street racing.

It is a significant violation. The danger to public safety resulting from a violation (IMHO and absent hard data) is greater than for DUI. The violation does reflect on a person's level of personal responsibility.
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Old 11-14-2017, 1:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Koolsilver View Post
Hello everyone, Iím looking for some advice for appealing my denial. Iím in Sacramento County and applied for my CCW in the beginning of this year. I have already done the interview and was approved as well as I have done the live scan and was approved to take the training course. I have the training course scheduled for next month but today I received an email that my application has been denied. The reason for denial was for my conviction of misdemeanor speed contest. I was ticketed for speed contest over 18 months ago and the conviction was given about a month ago. I was never arrested and never went to jail although I was given alternative sentencing which I guess is equivalent of jail. During the interview and on the application I explicitly disclosed this information but I was still approved. I thought that I had read somewhere that once your live scan is approved and you are told to take the class that you have been approved and they canít reverse the decision. Any advice to go about the appeal would be greatly appreciated.
Wow, a whole 18 months plus a little? I'm sorry but I don't think that that is long enough to be able to show that you've learned your lesson and won't act stupid and dangerous in public again. The simple fact is that you made the decision to break the law and act recklessly with a potentially deadly weapon and, to top it off, you were caught. Unfortunately I have to support the IA's decision not to issue you a LTC. Maybe, over ten years from now, if you haven't done anything else to show your irresponsible, I'd support you getting one but, it is far too soon.
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Old 11-14-2017, 3:47 PM
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Hello everyone, Iím looking for some advice for appealing my denial.
How old are you?
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Old 11-14-2017, 3:53 PM
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And this my friends is why CA is doomed, Move to America OP where the meter maids can't decide if you can ccw or not.
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Old 11-14-2017, 6:17 PM
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And this my friends is why CA is doomed, Move to America OP where the meter maids can't decide if you can ccw or not.
Sorry, but depending on circumstances, speed contests are extremely dangerous. If you aren't responsible enough to be entrusted with a motor vehicle, what makes you think you should should be entrusted with a concealed weapon?
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Old 11-14-2017, 6:39 PM
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Sorry, but depending on circumstances, speed contests are extremely dangerous. If you aren't responsible enough to be entrusted with a motor vehicle, what makes you think you should should be entrusted with a concealed weapon?
Ditto.

Speed contest, depending on the circumstances, CAN rise to the level of a felony charge.

That means no guns in any of the 50 states, Constitutional Carry or not.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
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Old 11-15-2017, 4:34 AM
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BTW.......did you win the race....??
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Old 11-15-2017, 5:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Ditto.

Speed contest, depending on the circumstances, CAN rise to the level of a felony charge.

That means no guns in any of the 50 states, Constitutional Carry or not.
It is not othersí call ó that is the point of a right. We have to put up with actions we deem irresponsible. We can try to influence their behavior in positive ways for things short of criminal behavior. This sort of paradigm as promoted by Comebottle has resulted in the conversion of this right to a paid privilege. But, I am in the minority since Americans in 2017 dislike liberty and love to control others.
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:47 AM
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Ditto.

Speed contest, depending on the circumstances, CAN rise to the level of a felony charge.

That means no guns in any of the 50 states, Constitutional Carry or not.
OP stated it was not a felony,
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:51 AM
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OP stated it was not a felony,
Did you read what Cokebottle posted?
I seem to have missed where the OP stated it was not a felony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Ditto.

Speed contest, depending on the circumstances, CAN rise to the level of a felony charge.

That means no guns in any of the 50 states, Constitutional Carry or not.
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:54 AM
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Did you read what Cokebottle posted?
Yeah and did you read the OP? My statement applied to the OP not some hypothetical felony conviction

But hey me and Tomrbka seem the be the only ones here who love freedom.
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:56 AM
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Yeah and did you read the OP? My statement applied to the OP not some hypothetical felony conviction
Where did he say it wasn't a felony?
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Old 11-15-2017, 11:28 AM
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Where did he say it wasn't a felony?

Right in the very first post....

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Originally Posted by Koolsilver View Post
Hello everyone, Iím looking for some advice for appealing my denial. Iím in Sacramento County and applied for my CCW in the beginning of this year. I have already done the interview and was approved as well as I have done the live scan and was approved to take the training course. I have the training course scheduled for next month but today I received an email that my application has been denied. The reason for denial was for my conviction of misdemeanor speed contest. I was ticketed for speed contest over 18 months ago and the conviction was given about a month ago. I was never arrested and never went to jail although I was given alternative sentencing which I guess is equivalent of jail. During the interview and on the application I explicitly disclosed this information but I was still approved. I thought that I had read somewhere that once your live scan is approved and you are told to take the class that you have been approved and they canít reverse the decision. Any advice to go about the appeal would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 11-15-2017, 11:45 AM
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Sacramento County requires 7 years with no misdemeanor (including traffic) convictions. No exceptions. They must have missed it the first go round. You can appeal but I don't see it changing anything.
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Old 11-15-2017, 2:58 PM
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i wanna know if he won the race too!?!?!? Would hate to see it being a double whammy, lost the race, lost the ccw.
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Old 11-15-2017, 4:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Koolsilver View Post
Hello everyone, Iím looking for some advice for appealing my denial. Iím in Sacramento County and applied for my CCW in the beginning of this year. I have already done the interview and was approved as well as I have done the live scan and was approved to take the training course. {snip}

I thought that I had read somewhere that once your live scan is approved and you are told to take the class that you have been approved and they canít reverse the decision. Any advice to go about the appeal would be greatly appreciated.
I suspect you may have wandered across this:
Quote:
26165. (d) The applicant shall not be required to pay for any training courses prior to the determination of good cause being made pursuant to Section 26202.
With initial acceptance, your good cause was accepted and you were authorized, at your discretion, to move forward with training. However, this is in no way a guarantee of issuance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolsilver View Post
I have the training course scheduled for next month but today I received an email that my application has been denied. The reason for denial was for my conviction of misdemeanor speed contest. I was ticketed for speed contest over 18 months ago and the conviction was given about a month ago.
The ticket might have been in the system, but after the conviction was recorded, I'm sure it popped up in the CCW review queue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolsilver View Post
I was never arrested and never went to jail although I was given alternative sentencing which I guess is equivalent of jail.
If you had ever spent even one night in jail, you would not make this statement.
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  #36  
Old 11-15-2017, 4:29 PM
Dvrjon Dvrjon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolsilver View Post
Thanks everyone for the advice. Going in and talking on a more informal basis does seem like a good approach. Iím not sure how other counties are but Sacramento with the online system makes it very impersonal and they make it very hard to talk with anyone. Looks like a good old fashion walk to the office is my best bet.

If anyone has any experience with the appeal process that theyíd be willing to share that would be greatly appreciated.
Write this down:

You have 30 days to submit your written appeal.

From the published policy (https://www.sacsheriff.com/Pages/Org...s%201-14.pdf):
Quote:
Denial of Application/Appeals Process:
All applicants will receive notice in writing regarding the approval or denial of their application.
Applicants who are denied a concealed weapons permit will be advised of the reason for the denial.
Applicants may appeal if their application for a permit is denied. All appeals must be submitted in writing to:

Sacramento County Sheriffís Department
Attention: Gun Permits
2101 Hurley Way
Sacramento, CA 95825

Written appeals should be specific, clearly outlining the applicantís rebuttal to the reason stated for denial.
Additional information, which may be pertinent to the applicantís request for a permit should also be included.
Note: Appeals must be received by the Sheriffís Department no later than (30) thirty days from the date of the notification letter.
You can be sure those are calendar days; From the date of the letter, not the date you received it.

Spend your time wisely. Chats with staff and all other activities are worthless if you miss the submission deadline.

And there's no appeal for late submission.
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  #37  
Old 11-15-2017, 4:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montu View Post
Right in the very first post....
I did miss it due to lack of paragraphs.
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  #38  
Old 11-15-2017, 4:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nine mil thrill View Post
even if you are "in the process", or given the, "go ahead", a, "conviction", will trigger a second look at your application. apparently, the committee did not like your "speed contest"........
They really don't like when you shoot lead ammo at Spenceville shooting range, amirite?!?
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  #39  
Old 11-15-2017, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 38Special View Post
How old are you?
Me wondering the same question. If he's under 30, just going to have to wait some time and keep a clean record.
Build up some of that good moral character.
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  #40  
Old 11-15-2017, 5:40 PM
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Perhaps they would have allowed you your permit if you hadn't been convicted.
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