Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > POLITICS, LITIGATION AND ACTIVISM > 2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #2161  
Old 10-30-2017, 4:47 PM
JackRydden224's Avatar
JackRydden224 JackRydden224 is offline
Single stack pistol guy
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Irvine
Posts: 7,035
iTrader: 82 / 100%
Default

9-12mo is my guess as well

Right now I'm holding off on all off roster purchase no matter how badly I want them. If we don't get anything by March 2018 I'll buy a few things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
Orals were back in March. My guess is 9 months to a year and a half after that is when the 3-judge panel will most likely release its decision.
Reply With Quote
  #2162  
Old 11-07-2017, 4:08 PM
JoelHugo1985 JoelHugo1985 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Anaheim
Posts: 4
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I really can't believe how long that these cases take to flush out. If it were taxes that you owed the Fed you would be in some pretty deep doo-doo for being late to pay, but since it's your freedoms, ya know...
Reply With Quote
  #2163  
Old 11-07-2017, 5:48 PM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 8,580
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

There is no incentive for the government to rush to do anything. If the law was put on hold until it was shown to be Constitutional by ALL the courts, then you would see a much different response.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #2164  
Old 11-07-2017, 9:31 PM
TruOil TruOil is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 96
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
There is no incentive for the government to rush to do anything. If the law was put on hold until it was shown to be Constitutional by ALL the courts, then you would see a much different response.
All you guys seem to think there is some kind of conspiracy to delay these cases. The fact is that the Ninth Circuit is the largest and the busiest circuit in the entire federal system. In each and every case, the judges read the entire record from below, many perform their own legal research. With a back log of cases years long, and with a statutory preference given to criminal cases, the civil cases lag behind. Moreover, in some cases, the law is suspended pending further proceedings, albeit rarely, and those cases proceed at the same pace as all the others.

Patience, grasshoppers.
Reply With Quote
  #2165  
Old 11-07-2017, 9:33 PM
Sir Toast's Avatar
Sir Toast Sir Toast is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,675
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

The federal District Courts don't do anything in less than 8 months in California.
Reply With Quote
  #2166  
Old 11-08-2017, 9:07 AM
Hoooper Hoooper is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Petaluma
Posts: 2,561
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruOil View Post
All you guys seem to think there is some kind of conspiracy to delay these cases. The fact is that the Ninth Circuit is the largest and the busiest circuit in the entire federal system. In each and every case, the judges read the entire record from below, many perform their own legal research. With a back log of cases years long, and with a statutory preference given to criminal cases, the civil cases lag behind. Moreover, in some cases, the law is suspended pending further proceedings, albeit rarely, and those cases proceed at the same pace as all the others.

Patience, grasshoppers.
Curiously, the "travel ban" zipped right through the 9th circus
Reply With Quote
  #2167  
Old 11-08-2017, 12:45 PM
EM2's Avatar
EM2 EM2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Prather, CA
Posts: 2,039
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruOil View Post
All you guys seem to think there is some kind of conspiracy to delay these cases. The fact is that the Ninth Circuit is the largest and the busiest circuit in the entire federal system. In each and every case, the judges read the entire record from below, many perform their own legal research. With a back log of cases years long, and with a statutory preference given to criminal cases, the civil cases lag behind. Moreover, in some cases, the law is suspended pending further proceedings, albeit rarely, and those cases proceed at the same pace as all the others.

Patience, grasshoppers.

In my opinion all cases with abridgment of Rights at issue the law should be suspended until resolved.

Patience is not an option when it comes to government interference with our Rights.
__________________
Quote:
"The 'Spray and Pray' system advances triumphantly in law enforcement. In a recent case in a southwestern city...a police officer, when threatened with a handgun, emptied his 15 shot pistol at his would-be assailant, achieving two peripheral hits. The citizen was charged with brandishing a firearm, but the cop was not charged with anything, lousy shooting not being a diciplinary offense."
--- Jeff Cooper, June 1990

Quote:
Originally Posted by EM2
Put you link where your opinion is.
Reply With Quote
  #2168  
Old 11-08-2017, 4:26 PM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 8,580
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruOil View Post
All you guys seem to think there is some kind of conspiracy to delay these cases.
...
Please don't quote me and make things up. No one said anything about a conspiracy except you. I said that there is no reason for them to quickly get it done. The law gets to be enforced, with rare exceptions, until they decide and it also delays any appeals and getting to the SC.

As shown, they can get things through if they want, which shows that they have no incentive to get this done. Don't try to imply other things.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #2169  
Old 11-09-2017, 7:53 AM
Rastoff's Avatar
Rastoff Rastoff is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
Posts: 656
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
In my opinion all cases with abridgment of Rights at issue the law should be suspended until resolved.

Patience is not an option when it comes to government interference with our Rights.
This ^^^^^
__________________
Remember, you can post here because they died over there.

www.BlackRiverTraining.com
Reply With Quote
  #2170  
Old 11-14-2017, 8:10 AM
AdamVIP AdamVIP is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 286
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

So do you think the judges heard the case in March and wrote their decisions and are sitting on them, or do you think they heard the case, sat around for now going on 8 months and will whip something up later when they get around to it?

They cant possibly remember anything besides the gist of the case at this point.
Reply With Quote
  #2171  
Old 11-14-2017, 9:04 AM
IVC's Avatar
IVC IVC is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Temecula
Posts: 12,796
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
In my opinion all cases with abridgment of Rights at issue the law should be suspended until resolved.

Patience is not an option when it comes to government interference with our Rights.
True, but the rights are NOT abridged until the court determines they are, so, as we are waiting, our rights are technically intact because the court says so. That's the catch. A circular argument with no easy way around it.

It's like online shopping using overnight shipping. It's only "overnight" from the point the shipment is ready, so you end up with multiple days waiting for it. In the roster case, our item "hasn't shipped yet."
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #2172  
Old 11-14-2017, 9:07 AM
IVC's Avatar
IVC IVC is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Temecula
Posts: 12,796
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamVIP View Post
They cant possibly remember anything besides the gist of the case at this point.
They have all the documents and they also wrote down anything from the orals they were interested in. Orals were only to ask questions and get clarifications anyway. The legal arguments are written down by each side.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #2173  
Old 11-14-2017, 9:33 AM
speedrrracer speedrrracer is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,984
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
In my opinion all cases with abridgment of Rights at issue the law should be suspended until resolved.

Patience is not an option when it comes to government interference with our Rights.
Cute, but you're not thinking. Remember, all laws are presumed Constitutional, so until a court makes the determination, they are, by default, NOT infringing on your rights.

Plus, what happens when some idiot says every single law in existence infringes on his rights? In your nightmare system, we then suspend every law, and live in the Wild West as the judicial system is forced to iterate through every law on the books, taking centuries to resolve? Yeah, bad idea and then some.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2174  
Old 11-14-2017, 11:41 AM
aBrowningfan aBrowningfan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 522
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
They have all the documents and they also wrote down anything from the orals they were interested in. Orals were only to ask questions and get clarifications anyway. The legal arguments are written down by each side.
Orals are recorded. There is most likely a transcript of the oral arguments that can be referred to.
Reply With Quote
  #2175  
Old 11-14-2017, 11:42 AM
aBrowningfan aBrowningfan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 522
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
True, but the rights are NOT abridged until the court determines they are, so, as we are waiting, our rights are technically intact because the court says so. That's the catch. A circular argument with no easy way around it.

It's like online shopping using overnight shipping. It's only "overnight" from the point the shipment is ready, so you end up with multiple days waiting for it. In the roster case, our item "hasn't shipped yet."
Probably hasn't even had a shipping label prepared for it.
Reply With Quote
  #2176  
Old 11-14-2017, 11:46 AM
Drivedabizness's Avatar
Drivedabizness Drivedabizness is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Folsom, CA
Posts: 1,905
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

You are correct. However, there IS precedent for government NOT having a blanket presumption of constitutionality. One example that comes to mind is the Voting Rights Act - where States found to have a history or rights suppression had to get pre-approval from DOJ before making new laws affecting voting rights.
This is exactly what I would like to see for the relatively few States that continue to treat 2A rights as privileges. Politically, given that 40+ States already treat those rights appropriately, I would think it would be an easy (er) political lift.
Another from here in CA is the prison system, which was put under Federal receivership. I'd like to see the same kind of thing done to the gun unit at DOJ - which would help address the under the table regs, Rube Goldberg background check system designed to prevent instant approvals and require maximum human intervention (cost) and an organization dedicated to doing the Legislatures dirty work.
__________________
Proud CGN Contributor
USMC Pistol Team Alumni - Distinguished Pistol Shot
Owner of multiple Constitutionally protected tools
Reply With Quote
  #2177  
Old 11-14-2017, 12:42 PM
EM2's Avatar
EM2 EM2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Prather, CA
Posts: 2,039
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
True, but the rights are NOT abridged until the court determines they are, so, as we are waiting, our rights are technically intact because the court says so. That's the catch. A circular argument with no easy way around it.

It's like online shopping using overnight shipping. It's only "overnight" from the point the shipment is ready, so you end up with multiple days waiting for it. In the roster case, our item "hasn't shipped yet."
That logic only works if you believe that the government gives us our Rights.
If you believe that Rights are inherent in being a Human and totally unrelated to government, than it is easy to understand that they have been abridged regardless of what the courts say.
__________________
Quote:
"The 'Spray and Pray' system advances triumphantly in law enforcement. In a recent case in a southwestern city...a police officer, when threatened with a handgun, emptied his 15 shot pistol at his would-be assailant, achieving two peripheral hits. The citizen was charged with brandishing a firearm, but the cop was not charged with anything, lousy shooting not being a diciplinary offense."
--- Jeff Cooper, June 1990

Quote:
Originally Posted by EM2
Put you link where your opinion is.
Reply With Quote
  #2178  
Old 11-14-2017, 12:49 PM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 8,580
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

It also only works if you assume that the politicians are ethical and honest, that they don't pass laws that they want to see enforced for decades and will pass more laws when those previous laws have been tossed out in court. Sadly, it is a bad assumption to believe that.

Take a look at the CA smog impact fee and how that was handled. It shows that the government did not care about what was right, just what they could get away with. They don't face the fear of jail for their theft of money and fraudulent acts. The same law was tossed in FL, but continued to be enforced in CA until years later it was tossed. Then they had a form that could be filled out to get a refund, but they did not send notice to those who they had collected the fee from.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #2179  
Old 11-14-2017, 5:56 PM
IVC's Avatar
IVC IVC is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Temecula
Posts: 12,796
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aBrowningfan View Post
Orals are recorded. There is most likely a transcript of the oral arguments that can be referred to.
Sure. What I meant was that the orals are more of a formality where judges clarify any issues they might personally have. Most of the case is decided based on references and legal arguments in briefs.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #2180  
Old 11-14-2017, 6:01 PM
IVC's Avatar
IVC IVC is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Temecula
Posts: 12,796
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
That logic only works if you believe that the government gives us our Rights.
If you believe that Rights are inherent in being a Human and totally unrelated to government, than it is easy to understand that they have been abridged regardless of what the courts say.
Regardless of how/when/where/why we have rights, when there is a disagreement with respect to what a right really means, that disagreement must be resolved. Remember, one side says "our rights are infringed," but the other side says "no, your rights are fine." Someone has to determine who is correct.

Until that determination is made, you cannot claim that our rights are infringed because you are still in the process of *determining* whether you're right or wrong. If/when our side wins, of course we will say "our rights HAVE BEEN infringed all this time," but it's a moot point since the courts will reverse the law at that time anyways.

However, if we lose, then the other side says: "see, we told you so. You were fine all along."
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 2:11 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.