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  #1  
Old 11-08-2017, 2:27 PM
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Default Too much crimp?

I've read the LFC die is limited to over crimping but had a fellow reloader tell me i just made home made pipe bombs with the amount of crimp i applied to these bullets, that the pressure would be too high. With this crimp im at .471" which is where i want to be correct (.468-.471)?

these are pc, sized to 452 and i had to seat deep enough so that they would both chamber and exit freely back out of the barrel. Seating depths are 1.135. 1.135 and 1.195 for the 230gr TC

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Old 11-08-2017, 2:35 PM
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Default Too much crimp?

I would say too itís much. You just want enough crimp to re-straighten the case wall after flaring.

Additionally, you should pull the bullets and mic them to see if the case isnít swaging them down smaller than .452. With that crimp, I bet you they are and youíll end up with leading from swaging in addition to over pressuring from the crimp.

Last edited by EMR; 11-08-2017 at 2:44 PM..
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Old 11-08-2017, 2:43 PM
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Originally Posted by EMR View Post
I would say too itís much. You just want enough crimp to re-straighten then case wall after flaring.

Additionally, you should pull the bullets and mic them to see if the case isnít swaging then down smaller than .452. With that crimp, I bet you they are and youíll end up with leading from swaging in addition to over pressuring from the crimp.
dont have a mic but i'll go ahead and pull them and back off the crimp a few thousandths. Also will measure the diameter
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Old 11-08-2017, 2:46 PM
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It is a little too much, but they will work, and it isn't dangerous.

You shouldn't need to turn the knob more than 1 turn from when the die touched the edge of the brass. I usually use 1/2 to 3/4 turn for regular pistol ammo. I used 1 turn for some 454 Cassul, 41 mag, 357 mag, and 44 mag loads.

I think Lee rifle FCD's need to have 1 turn, but I cannot remember.


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Old 11-08-2017, 3:00 PM
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dont have a mic
You reload and don't have a mic?:
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:13 PM
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You reload and don't have a mic?:
i see that as an expensive tool that would really only benefit precision rifle shooters. but im only a few months into reloading so i could be wrong
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:29 PM
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i see that as an expensive tool that would really only benefit precision rifle shooters. but im only a few months into reloading so i could be wrong
Micrometer calipers. Though there are a number of tools that register micrometers (0.001" or .01mm), calipers are almost always what we are referring to in here.
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:33 PM
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$13.99. A cheap investment.
https://www.amazon.com/Flexzion-Digi...lipers+hornady
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:34 PM
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Will they chamber properly with less crimp? Preventing setback and allowing the rounds to chamber are really what you need to be concerned about, not hitting a published measurement.
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:40 PM
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No not for a magnum revolver, for a 45 acp.............well.
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:46 PM
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ahh i misunderstood, i do have a caliper i thought you meant those expensive RCBS precision mics.
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle View Post
Will they chamber properly with less crimp? Preventing setback and allowing the rounds to chamber are really what you need to be concerned about, not hitting a published measurement.
Update: was able to chamber the 200gr swc up to 1.240", loosened the crimp die all the way up until i can feel the case mouth. This allowed just enough crimp to leave me at .472 and after pulling that bullet there was barely a hairline resemblence of the crimp which left the bullets diameter at .451". The base how ever dropped from .452 to .450. Is this because the case is not sized properly that its choking the bullet too much? or not enough of a flare? I have the ram all the way up with the shell touching the powder through expanding die, and can fairly seat a bullet by hand just enough to get the base in.
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Old 11-08-2017, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Carcassonne View Post
I think Lee rifle FCD's need to have 1 turn, but I cannot remember.

.
Screw the die body in until the crimp shoulder contacts the case mouth (sometimes a nebulous adjustment). Then ONE-HALF turn to provide a strong crimp.
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Old 11-08-2017, 4:27 PM
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Originally Posted by wbunning View Post
Screw the die body in until the crimp shoulder contacts the case mouth (sometimes a nebulous adjustment). Then ONE-HALF turn to provide a strong crimp.
just tested a few more test cartridges and found the LFC die is cutting my bullets 452 diameter to 450. I'll try again after i reset the die properly.
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Old 11-08-2017, 4:42 PM
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Use wbunning method above your last post, to set die.
Don't worry about the base measurement. Use the above method for setting your die. You should be at .469 to.471 at the mouth. You should be OK at .472. Do a PLUNK TEST:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s80P2j02YnM to see if the round drops easily into the barrel, if not, slightly tighten up.
Really all you want to do is straighten out the bell in the case mouth. Have the flare set just enough to accept the base of the bullet, and you should be good to go.
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Last edited by PatC415; 11-08-2017 at 5:35 PM..
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Old 11-08-2017, 6:06 PM
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Default Too much crimp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatC415 View Post
...Don't worry about the base measurement.


If he was loading plated or FMJ, I would be more inclined to agree with you, but since heís only loading PCíd lead, Iím worried about the possibility of gas cutting and inaccuracy, especially if heís only measuring .450. Two of my 1911s slug at .4515 and the other .452

Now if he shoots them as-is and doesnít get leading, then he got lucky and is good to go.

Last edited by EMR; 11-08-2017 at 6:12 PM..
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Old 11-08-2017, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by PatC415 View Post
Use wbunning method above your last post, to set die.
Don't worry about the base measurement. Use the above method for setting your die. You should be at .469 to.471 at the mouth. You should be OK at .472. Do a PLUNK TEST:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s80P2j02YnM to see if the round drops easily into the barrel, if not, slightly tighten up.
Really all you want to do is straighten out the bell in the case mouth. Have the flare set just enough to accept the base of the bullet, and you should be good to go.
thanks going to take out the barrel so it'll be easier then entering it through the magazine. Plunk test is done without adding the crimp correct? you mentioned not to worry about the base measurement but its the entire diameter of the bullet thats effect by the crimp. This would cause gas cutting if the bullet is smaller than the bore.
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Old 11-08-2017, 6:13 PM
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Originally Posted by EMR View Post
If he was loading plated or FMJ, I would be more inclined to agree with you, but since heís only loading PCíd lead, Iím worried about the possibility of gas cutting and inaccuracy, especially if heís only measuring .450. Two of my 1911s slug at .4515 and the other .452

Now if he shoots them as-is and doesnít get leading, then he got lucky and is good to go.
havent yet adjusted backing out the crimp die so maybe it'll leave the diameter alone this time when i set it properly.
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Old 11-08-2017, 6:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RiskyBusiness View Post
thanks going to take out the barrel so it'll be easier then entering it through the magazine. Plunk test is done without adding the crimp correct? you mentioned not to worry about the base measurement but its the entire diameter of the bullet thats effect by the crimp. This would cause gas cutting if the bullet is smaller than the bore.


The plunk test is with your crimp. Basically to see if your final product fits.
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Old 11-08-2017, 6:23 PM
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The plunk test is with your crimp. Basically to see if your final product fits.
oh okay because in the video he continues to seat deeper and do the test without crimping after every adjustment. If i were to crimp after every adjustment and seat deeper im sure it the case mouth will dig into the lead.
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Old 11-08-2017, 6:29 PM
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Originally Posted by RiskyBusiness View Post
oh okay because in the video he continues to seat deeper and do the test without crimping after every adjustment. If i were to crimp after every adjustment and seat deeper im sure it the case mouth will dig into the lead.


If youíre crimping just to straighten the wall, then you can still seat the bullet deeper later anyway if needed without crimping again. Thereís a chance your uncrimped case with the flare intact may not chamber completely.
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Old 11-08-2017, 6:34 PM
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Originally Posted by EMR View Post
If he was loading plated or FMJ, I would be more inclined to agree with you, but since heís only loading PCíd lead, Iím worried about the possibility of gas cutting and inaccuracy, especially if heís only measuring .450. Two of my 1911s slug at .4515 and the other .452

Now if he shoots them as-is and doesnít get leading, then he got lucky and is good to go.
I agree, but if he's over crimping and then pulling the bullet to measure the diameter, he's going to get that kind of measurement.

OP, where are you getting the .450 measurement, are you pulling the bullets after the case is crimped?

Not sure how he would get a measurement of .450 if he was at .472 crimped.
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Old 11-08-2017, 6:35 PM
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Originally Posted by PatC415 View Post
I agree, but if he's over crimping and then pulling the bullet to measure the diameter, he's going to get that kind of measurement.



OP, where are you getting the .450 measurement, are you pulling the bullets after the case is crimped?



Not sure how he would get a measurement of .450 if he was at .472 crimped.


Ohh gotcha!
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Old 11-08-2017, 6:40 PM
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oh okay because in the video he continues to seat deeper and do the test without crimping after every adjustment. If i were to crimp after every adjustment and seat deeper im sure it the case mouth will dig into the lead.
The ďplunk testĒ isnít really about crimp per se, though it enters into the equation. It should be self-evident that a case that was flared enough to accept a cast bullet without scraping lead upon seating may not fit into the chamber without first removing the flare. If there is sufficient crimp, the round should drop into the barrel easily and the ďplunkĒ is the sound of the case mouth seating. That can happen even when over-crimped.

On the other hand, if the bullet is seated too far out, it will contact the lands before the case mouth head-spaces. The sound is different. Make some too-long dummy rounds and learn the difference.

You can test taper-crimp by pushing a completed round against your bench VERY HARD after measuring OAL. If OAL doesnít change, then crimp was at least sufficient. Work up to that point with dummy rounds ( no primer, no powder) until you get a feel for the die setting. You can also test at the range by checking OAL of the 5th round or so in your mag after firing the first few.
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Old 11-08-2017, 7:10 PM
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It looks like you are you using a Lee Factory Crimp Die for a 45 ACP? Not needed or wanted for this caliber in an auto.

All you need is a very slight taper and a "plunk" test, as stated earlier.

I think that over crimping like this, that the round is headspaced incorrectly ... Are these new cases that were never trimmed?
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Old 11-08-2017, 7:25 PM
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I agree, but if he's over crimping and then pulling the bullet to measure the diameter, he's going to get that kind of measurement.

OP, where are you getting the .450 measurement, are you pulling the bullets after the case is crimped?

Not sure how he would get a measurement of .450 if he was at .472 crimped.
im getting the .450 at the base and at the top before the bullets head starts to take shape. It's consistently crushing the bullet even with the die as loose as you can make it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWnw0sTBO8w&t=370s

at 6:25 he explains during extraction from the die sizes the case. im going to pull some of my fmj reloads and see if those were sized to .450 as well.
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Old 11-08-2017, 7:28 PM
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It looks like you are you using a Lee Factory Crimp Die for a 45 ACP? Not needed or wanted for this caliber in an auto.

All you need is a very slight taper and a "plunk" test, as stated earlier.

I think that over crimping like this, that the round is headspaced incorrectly ... Are these new cases that were never trimmed?
i gave it the slightest crimp with the adjustment stem not even giving it any pressure once i feel the case mouth. Im going to measure the length of these bullets because if im losing on diameter, that lead is going elsewhere.
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Old 11-08-2017, 10:05 PM
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get rid of the lee die buy a "taper' crimp die the lee die will size down the base and you will get gas cutting on the small base and lead the barrel you do not need the LFC die.
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Old 11-08-2017, 10:10 PM
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get rid of the lee die buy a "taper' crimp die the lee die will size down the base and you will get gas cutting on the small base and lead the barrel you do not need the LFC die.
this die does apply a taper crimp, just sucks that its also sizing down my bullet like why is that even a thing? lol

do you think the lead is too soft? im going to try to seat and crimp a plated bullet and see if it does the same. Ordering a taper crimp right now $16... what a bust if i knew this i would've opted for the cheaper 3 die set from lee instead of the 4 which i just found out doesn't even make a decent fleshlight
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Old 11-09-2017, 12:07 PM
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yeah its a tapper crimp also but the body of the die is like a sizer die and knocks down any bulges but that includes bullet bulges too.

The bullet does not bounce back as the case will and the bullet is now undersize with a lead bullet in a 45 that's equals barrel leading.
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Old 11-09-2017, 12:48 PM
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yeah its a tapper crimp also but the body of the die is like a sizer die and knocks down any bulges but that includes bullet bulges too.

The bullet does not bounce back as the case will and the bullet is now undersize with a lead bullet in a 45 that's equals barrel leading.
its a powdercoated lead bullet but still undersized means less accuracy is what i keep hearing. Spoke with Lee cs and they said to look up "obturation" and that the undersized bullet will expand when shot. He said to pull a factory bullet apart and measure the bullets diameter, i did so with a blazer round and sure enough the bullet was undersized unless they normally use .450 bullets. Have we've been shooting undersized bullets this whole time with factory ammo?
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Old 11-09-2017, 4:35 PM
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I use a 4 die set, which seats the bullet then taper crimps with seperate die. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die, and works very well. Hear is my thinking on crimp: do the math. Bullet .452, case wall thickness(AVG.) per side .010, so add up .452 + .010 x 2 (case wall thickness for both sides) =.472 would be removal of all flare and equal no crimp when measured at very edge of case mouth. I add an extra .001 to get .471. All with a Bear Creek 200 grain SWC Moly coated lead hard cast bullet. Seated at 1.250 COL. Runs about 900 FPS, no leading, very accurate, and works in all (7) 1911s.
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Old 11-09-2017, 5:13 PM
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has it ever peaked your interest to try just the taper crimp to keep your bullets at 452? just to see if theres any difference in group size? good to know that you're not getting leading. i'll go a head and load up about a 100 or so but still will send my dies in if they come through with a fcd that sizes my cartridge enough to leave the bullet alone that'd be great.
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Old 11-10-2017, 3:40 PM
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Default Too much crimp?

So here is one of my .454 sized 230gn. For my .45acp I use a Lee 4 die turret with the LEE FCD. I just barely use the FCD to barely touch and straighten out the case wall from the flare die. My cases end up swagging these large bullets .0005 so I still end up with a .4535 on the mic, which is plenty enough for my Professional which measures .452 when slugged. I get zero leading and accuracy is fantastic.


Which flare die did you end up purchasing?

Last edited by EMR; 11-10-2017 at 6:02 PM..
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Old 11-12-2017, 3:51 AM
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So here is one of my .454 sized 230gn. For my .45acp I use a Lee 4 die turret with the LEE FCD. I just barely use the FCD to barely touch and straighten out the case wall from the flare die. My cases end up swagging these large bullets .0005 so I still end up with a .4535 on the mic, which is plenty enough for my Professional which measures .452 when slugged. I get zero leading and accuracy is fantastic.


Which flare die did you end up purchasing?
Wow it never occurred to me to mod my 452 sizer to 453-454 so when ran into the fcd I could still be near where I want over the bores size. Thanks man. Just to update everyone, my Lee taper crimp came in and it solved my problem. Base and body of bullet stayed at 452, just lost .001 where the taper was applied. Was able to chamber 3 different 45s. 200gr swc at 1.130, 200gr RF 1.110, 230gr TC 1.190. Passed plunk test, free to rotate in barrel and released out easily. Based off looks the TC wins because it doesn't sit so far down but I'll try and work up some loads and report later on functionality. By the way what mold did you use for your RN?
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Old 11-13-2017, 6:50 AM
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I've read the LFC die is limited to over crimping but had a fellow reloader tell me i just made home made pipe bombs with the amount of crimp i applied to these bullets, that the pressure would be too high. With this crimp im at .471" which is where i want to be correct (.468-.471)?
And it is written there is no such thing as too much crimp. and before that there were many different ways to crimp a bullet into a case. It all had to do with time and pressure.

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Old 11-14-2017, 6:42 AM
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I could ask if anyone understands pressure created when the trigger is pulled exceeds the ability of the case neck to hold the bullet meaning the neck of the case releases the bullet before the bullet ever starts to move.

I know, reloaders use neck tension as though tension give the reloader an exemption, And then it gets more complicated;

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Old 11-14-2017, 12:26 PM
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"Spoke with Lee cs and they said to look up "obturation"

I would not count on this, the closest you can get to bore size and with the least amount of size change as bullet is fired is best

to count on using a .452 bullet then running that nice round correct sized bullet through the lee FC die smashing it doen to .450 maybe not even round anymore than hoping it obturates back to the correct size is a stupid way to go.
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  #39  
Old 11-15-2017, 6:33 AM
fguffey fguffey is offline
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Quote:
"Spoke with Lee cs and they said to look up "obturation"
I would suggest Lee customer service purchase R. Lee's book on modern reloading, same for reloaders that are thinking about crimping bullets. R. Lee in his book says there is no such thing as too much crimp.

F. Guffey
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  #40  
Old 11-15-2017, 2:02 PM
Chief-7700 Chief-7700 is offline
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Lose the Lee Factor Crimp die and get a taper crimp die. Ever wonder why only Lee makes the Factor Crimp Die?
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